These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Intergalactic Summit

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Points made, bridges burned...
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Fredfredbug4
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#41 - 2013-08-25 22:47:44 UTC
Indira Harashani wrote:


It seems odd, but I find those hailing from the Federation who have spent extended amounts of time in the Empire and Kingdom to be far more tolerable individuals than those of their countrymen who stay at home and play the part of obnoxious armchair politician instead of actually exposing themselves to the rest of the cluster..


I haven't been a permanent resident of the Federation in two years, and the more I travel the cluster the more grateful I am to have been born and raised in the Federation. The Republic, State, and even the Empire are all wonderful in their own ways and I respect and admire each culture to a certain extent. But whenever I see something I'm not too fond of, I'm happy to know the Federation doesn't suffer the same problem (usually).

The Federation isn't without problems either. But in a galaxy where people are enslaved, or oppressed, or just can't get their act together, the problems of the Federation seem almost trivial.

Of course, more capsuleers should come out to nullsec. Over here your race or nationality is nothing more than a foot note. We have slave owners and freedmen drinking together at the pub. We have Caldari Patriots and Gallente Loyalist fighting side by side. Where the Empires have failed, capsuleers have succeeded.

Watch_ Fred Fred Frederation_ and stop [u]cryptozoologist[/u]! Fight against the brutal genocide of fictional creatures across New Eden! Is that a metaphor? Probably not, but the fru-fru- people will sure love it!
Alexa de'Crux
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#42 - 2013-08-25 22:58:32 UTC
Ava Starfire wrote:

What do you want me to do?


With great respect, Shaman, I think your question provides its own answer.

What do you think you should do? Tribalism is all well and good, but what chance does the tribe have when it effectively sits back and allows its own leaders to abuse the system?

It's not what other people want you to do, Shaman, it's what you're willing to do for yourself. Given the examples set by Shakor in the past, it seems clear (to me, at least) that he has no intention of changing his indulgent ways.

A commanding officer that is only concerned with 'looking good' for his superiors quickly finds more weapons pointed at his back than there are at the enemy.

So, I ask you:

What will you do?

Will you follow Shakor as he continues to expand his military might at your peoples' expense, or will you take the opportunity to step beyond the limitations of 'duty' and 'expectations' to challenge the status quo and possibly bring real prosperity to the Republic?

That's your choice, Shaman.

Do with it what you will.
Gabriel Darkefyre
Gradient
Electus Matari
#43 - 2013-08-25 23:13:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Gabriel Darkefyre
Shakor.


Shakor..


Shakor...


So many out there seeing the removal of the Sanmatar as being some magic bullet to cure all that ails our Republic. Don't get me wrong, the Sanmatar does have influence, however he is but one man amongst what should be a Council of 8 and represents no single tribe.

People often forget that the Head of State for the Republic is not the Sanmatar, but the Tribal Council as a whole. If Shakor says yes to something and the Council disagrees, then the Council's will prevails.

What should be done? The Council needs to be made whole and strong once more. The Sebiestor must choose one from their number to succeed Karin Midular and lead our people into the future as a Councillor.
Shintoko Akahoshi
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#44 - 2013-08-26 01:36:28 UTC
Ava Starfire wrote:

What would you have me do? You wanted my attention? You have it. You wanted to go on a passionate, windy monologue? Please continue. I am all ears. I am listening.

What do you want me to do?


Honestly, I couldn't begin to advise you. I don't envy you the position you're in. If I were in your shoes, I have no idea what I would do.

I've gotten a reputation since the battle of Colelie as something of a rabid Republic-hater. Some have called me a Minmatar hater, which is of course ludicrous. Others have accused me of providing a prime example of the Federation attitude whereby "we" tell "you" what to do. A particularly rabid individual insists that I want to "punish" the Republic for the attack.

None of that is true. Especially the bit about telling you what you should do now. You, and the Republic as a whole, have made your choices and acted upon those choices, and they have taken you to the place in which you now stand. You're the only one who can figure out how to live there.

As for me, I've gotten past some of the anger that's ruled my days since Colelie. Now I'm merely saddened that things have come to what they are. Good luck, Starfire. I mean that.

Bio and writing

(Nothing I say is indicative of corporate policy unless otherwise stated)
Shintoko Akahoshi
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#45 - 2013-08-26 01:38:39 UTC
Gabriel Darkefyre wrote:
People often forget that the Head of State for the Republic is not the Sanmatar, but the Tribal Council as a whole. If Shakor says yes to something and the Council disagrees, then the Council's will prevails.


This, for the record, is exactly why I've called for the dissolution of the Republic-Federation alliance, why I continue to call for it, and why this issue will likely be the primary one I consider when I cast my vote for President next year.

Bio and writing

(Nothing I say is indicative of corporate policy unless otherwise stated)
Ava Starfire
Khushakor Clan
#46 - 2013-08-26 02:02:50 UTC
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=272453&find=unread

Then, here is my decision.

"There is no strength in numbers; have no such misconception." -Jayka Vofur, "Warfare in the North"
Caellach Marellus
Stormcrows
#47 - 2013-08-26 02:35:24 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
Nick Bete wrote:
Vikarion wrote:


You mean, should we be angry that the Gallente tried to starve us out, then tried to exterminate us, then spent one hundred years trying to conquer us, another hundred denying us our home, and then, when we had it, attempting to reconquer it?

Hmm. I'm thinking...yes.


If your ancestors hadn't been duplicitous bastards in the first place hiding their stargates and bases with dreams of expansion unfettered by any obligations to their partners... I think you see where I'm going here. You, like the slavers, set the stage for events that unfolded yet, now you cry and try to play the aggrieved party. How cute.



You really ought to hunt out those statutes in the charter that threaten planetary blockade, bombardment and invasion as the punishment for TAX evasion.


Slight correction to your account of things. The blockade was due to the dispute over the colonies, the bombardment and invasion was after the sectarian violence against ethnic Gallente, which spilled out into sanctioned murder as the Caldari army destroyed entire villages and towns that were predominantely Gallente. That and the final straw at Nouvelle Rouvenor was the reason for the invasion, it gave the UNATS the platform with which to seize power and wage their war.


Not to say the bombardment was justified, but it's not like there wasn't provocation for this. People act like Nouvelle Rouvenor was an isolated incident, it wasn't, and neither side came out of the build up to the war smelling of roses.

When your gut instincts tell you something is wrong, trust them. When your heart tells you something is right, ignore it, check with your brain first. Accept nothing, challenge everything.
Vikarion
Doomheim
#48 - 2013-08-26 02:41:20 UTC
Caellach Marellus wrote:
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
Nick Bete wrote:
Vikarion wrote:


You mean, should we be angry that the Gallente tried to starve us out, then tried to exterminate us, then spent one hundred years trying to conquer us, another hundred denying us our home, and then, when we had it, attempting to reconquer it?

Hmm. I'm thinking...yes.


If your ancestors hadn't been duplicitous bastards in the first place hiding their stargates and bases with dreams of expansion unfettered by any obligations to their partners... I think you see where I'm going here. You, like the slavers, set the stage for events that unfolded yet, now you cry and try to play the aggrieved party. How cute.



You really ought to hunt out those statutes in the charter that threaten planetary blockade, bombardment and invasion as the punishment for TAX evasion.


Slight correction to your account of things. The blockade was due to the dispute over the colonies, the bombardment and invasion was after the sectarian violence against ethnic Gallente, which spilled out into sanctioned murder as the Caldari army destroyed entire villages and towns that were predominantely Gallente. That and the final straw at Nouvelle Rouvenor was the reason for the invasion, it gave the UNATS the platform with which to seize power and wage their war.


Not to say the bombardment was justified, but it's not like there wasn't provocation for this. People act like Nouvelle Rouvenor was an isolated incident, it wasn't, and neither side came out of the build up to the war smelling of roses.


Ah, as if the violence against Gallente immigrants to Caldari Prime just sprang out of nowhere. The violence against the Gallente was a rather delayed - all things considered - response to the attempt to starve the Caldari out. By the time of the secession, the Caldari Prime population was bolstered, in part by Gallente immigrants, to the point that exports were needed for continued survival of the population. The blockade was nothing less than war by starvation.
Caellach Marellus
Stormcrows
#49 - 2013-08-26 02:48:50 UTC
Vikarion wrote:
Caellach Marellus wrote:
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
Nick Bete wrote:
Vikarion wrote:


You mean, should we be angry that the Gallente tried to starve us out, then tried to exterminate us, then spent one hundred years trying to conquer us, another hundred denying us our home, and then, when we had it, attempting to reconquer it?

Hmm. I'm thinking...yes.


If your ancestors hadn't been duplicitous bastards in the first place hiding their stargates and bases with dreams of expansion unfettered by any obligations to their partners... I think you see where I'm going here. You, like the slavers, set the stage for events that unfolded yet, now you cry and try to play the aggrieved party. How cute.



You really ought to hunt out those statutes in the charter that threaten planetary blockade, bombardment and invasion as the punishment for TAX evasion.


Slight correction to your account of things. The blockade was due to the dispute over the colonies, the bombardment and invasion was after the sectarian violence against ethnic Gallente, which spilled out into sanctioned murder as the Caldari army destroyed entire villages and towns that were predominantely Gallente. That and the final straw at Nouvelle Rouvenor was the reason for the invasion, it gave the UNATS the platform with which to seize power and wage their war.


Not to say the bombardment was justified, but it's not like there wasn't provocation for this. People act like Nouvelle Rouvenor was an isolated incident, it wasn't, and neither side came out of the build up to the war smelling of roses.


Ah, as if the violence against Gallente immigrants to Caldari Prime just sprang out of nowhere. The violence against the Gallente was a rather delayed - all things considered - response to the attempt to starve the Caldari out. By the time of the secession, the Caldari Prime population was bolstered, in part by Gallente immigrants, to the point that exports were needed for continued survival of the population. The blockade was nothing less than war by starvation.



No one said it sprang out of nowhere, it was a correction to the claim that the bombardments were due to the dispute over colonies, when the reality was far more depressing.

Infact, I'm not exactly sure what point you're trying to make here at all.

When your gut instincts tell you something is wrong, trust them. When your heart tells you something is right, ignore it, check with your brain first. Accept nothing, challenge everything.
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#50 - 2013-08-26 04:57:26 UTC
He's making the point that the violence came AFTER the blockade and that the UNAT response to it was collective punishment of the most indiscriminate kind. Soft man of Gallente Prime that you are, you might want to travel to the surface of Home with your family, establish a camp on the freezing surface and learn to live in those conditions. Then you might want to become dependent on food grown elsewhere and shipped in, have your steading grow beyond your capacity to feed it from ice and snow and then have those shipments cut off because of a question of colonies.

The violence was our people taking food from the Gallente living amongst us. And why not? Whose fault was the blockade, after all?

As for Nouvelle Rouvenor, it was a despicable act of terrorism by a faction that the Caldari have called terrorists for centuries. May the names of those who committed it be forever unknown to their ancestors.

Your atrocities committed in the run up to the Third Battle of Caldari Prime in recent months were carried out by Black Eagle so-called 'political action groups'. The arms provided by your government. The explosives provided by your government. The massacres of Kaalakiota miners ordered by your government.

That may have been his point.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Katrina Oniseki
Oniseki-Raata Internal Watch
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#51 - 2013-08-26 11:45:19 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:

Your atrocities committed in the run up to the Third Battle of Caldari Prime in recent months were carried out by Black Eagle so-called 'political action groups'. The arms provided by your government. The explosives provided by your government. The massacres of Kaalakiota miners ordered by your government.

That may have been his point.



Let's be fair though. Atrocities were committed by both sides in the last five years. Both Provists and the FIO.

Heth pushed everybody past their tolerances. It was only a matter of time before the Federation grew tired of his games, and we all knew the FIO would play their hand eventually on Caldari Prime. We knew that as soon as our troops landed in 110.

Katrina Oniseki
Caellach Marellus
Stormcrows
#52 - 2013-08-26 14:26:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Caellach Marellus
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
He's making the point that the violence came AFTER the blockade and that the UNAT response to it was collective punishment of the most indiscriminate kind. Soft man of Gallente Prime that you are, you might want to travel to the surface of Home with your family, establish a camp on the freezing surface and learn to live in those conditions. Then you might want to become dependent on food grown elsewhere and shipped in, have your steading grow beyond your capacity to feed it from ice and snow and then have those shipments cut off because of a question of colonies.

The violence was our people taking food from the Gallente living amongst us. And why not? Whose fault was the blockade, after all?

As for Nouvelle Rouvenor, it was a despicable act of terrorism by a faction that the Caldari have called terrorists for centuries. May the names of those who committed it be forever unknown to their ancestors.

Your atrocities committed in the run up to the Third Battle of Caldari Prime in recent months were carried out by Black Eagle so-called 'political action groups'. The arms provided by your government. The explosives provided by your government. The massacres of Kaalakiota miners ordered by your government.

That may have been his point.


There's a few logical fallacies in this argument, especially the constant use of the posessive terminology.

However I'll bring up something of interest...

Quote:
The violence was our people taking food from the Gallente living amongst us. And why not? Whose fault was the blockade, after all?


So it's perfectly ok to attempt ethnic cleansing of a group of innocent people because they have a resource you want, that you are being denied elsewhere because of other people to whom they have an association but no direct involvement?




You're a real piece of work Tuulinen.

When your gut instincts tell you something is wrong, trust them. When your heart tells you something is right, ignore it, check with your brain first. Accept nothing, challenge everything.
Vikarion
Doomheim
#53 - 2013-08-26 15:14:52 UTC
Caellach Marellus wrote:

So it's perfectly ok to attempt ethnic cleansing of a group of innocent people because they have a resource you want, that you are being denied elsewhere because of other people to whom they have an association but no direct involvement?


You forget, Mr. Marellus, that we were living in a democracy at the time. The Gallente and Mannar were the strongest supporters of crushing the Caldari with military force. The Intaki and other, more minor groups were not. The Gallente voted for the politicians and senators who enacted the U-Nat government. So when the time came that the U-Nats decided to starve out Caldari Prime, the Caldari turned on those who were responsible for electing said senators and politicians.

In other words, the problem you seem to have is that those who were responsible for enacting policies to destroy their neighbors were then hurt by those neighbors. It's not like we went after Intaki, for example. Nor was it an organized campaign of ethnic cleansing so much as outbursts of violence. Regrettable, yes, but unlike the Gallentean response, there was no organized effort to exterminate Gallente.


Caellach Marellus
Stormcrows
#54 - 2013-08-26 15:51:24 UTC
Vikarion wrote:
Regrettable, yes, but unlike the Gallentean response, there was no organized effort to exterminate Gallente.


The Caldari Army's direct strike against Gallente towns and villages wasn't organised?

Are you saying that the State had no control over it's own military at the time?

When your gut instincts tell you something is wrong, trust them. When your heart tells you something is right, ignore it, check with your brain first. Accept nothing, challenge everything.
Repentence Tyrathlion
Tyrathlion Interstellar
#55 - 2013-08-26 16:36:38 UTC
Caellach Marellus wrote:
Vikarion wrote:
Regrettable, yes, but unlike the Gallentean response, there was no organized effort to exterminate Gallente.


The Caldari Army's direct strike against Gallente towns and villages wasn't organised?

Are you saying that the State had no control over it's own military at the time?


This, boys and girls, is a prime example of putting words into peoples' mouths.
Caellach Marellus
Stormcrows
#56 - 2013-08-26 20:27:42 UTC
Repentence Tyrathlion wrote:
Caellach Marellus wrote:
Vikarion wrote:
Regrettable, yes, but unlike the Gallentean response, there was no organized effort to exterminate Gallente.


The Caldari Army's direct strike against Gallente towns and villages wasn't organised?

Are you saying that the State had no control over it's own military at the time?


This, boys and girls, is a prime example of putting words into peoples' mouths.


Well either it's an unorganised effort where the military has gone rogue, thus having no control.

Or he's talking bollocks.

When your gut instincts tell you something is wrong, trust them. When your heart tells you something is right, ignore it, check with your brain first. Accept nothing, challenge everything.
Katran Luftschreck
Royal Ammatar Engineering Corps
#57 - 2013-08-26 21:02:38 UTC
Nick Bete wrote:
I sincerely doubt that most Minmatar want to become you and commit genocide. They are a passionate people with long memories but, not raging animals with hearts full of malice and blood lust.


Bullshit.

Nick Bete wrote:
I believe them when they say that if you imperials would "leave them the hell alone" that they'd stop shooting you. Aside from your dubious revenge argument what reason would the Minmatar have to fight you once their people were released and you gave up your reclaiming?


They may call themselves a Republic, but in reality they're basically a military junta, and the power of that junta is based off the perception of an external enemy that must be destroyed. External enemies are what lets the tribes stop fighting each other and unite together against a common foe.

Without fighting externally they will go back to fighting internally and end up destroying themselves. So peace is, in fact, the absolute worst thing that could happen to Shakor's regime, and you can be he damn well knows it.

If they weren't fighting the Amarr they'd be fighting the Caldari... oh wait... they already are.

If they weren't fighting the Caldari then they'd be fighting the Federation... oh wait... they already are.

If the Empire ever laid down it's arms Shakor would probably die of a panic attack, unless he could fabricate justification for a full-scale invasion of the Federation quickly enough.

Luckily for Shakor, by putting the Empire in his sights he has given himself an enemy that can never be beaten. That's important, actually, because it puts their government in position of eternal war and thus eternal stability.



http://youtu.be/t0q2F8NsYQ0
Katrina Oniseki
Oniseki-Raata Internal Watch
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#58 - 2013-08-26 21:11:45 UTC
Honestly, I don't think we need to continue smashing the Federation for the actions of the U-Nat government. You can thank Heth for removing that luxury of complaint from your hands.

Katrina Oniseki
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#59 - 2013-08-26 21:56:06 UTC
Katrina Oniseki wrote:
Honestly, I don't think we need to continue smashing the Federation for the actions of the U-Nat government. You can thank Heth for removing that luxury of complaint from your hands.


With respect, people like Msr Marellus more or less demand near constant reminders of why there's still actually a war on.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#60 - 2013-08-26 21:57:43 UTC
Caellach Marellus wrote:
Vikarion wrote:
Regrettable, yes, but unlike the Gallentean response, there was no organized effort to exterminate Gallente.


The Caldari Army's direct strike against Gallente towns and villages wasn't organised?

Are you saying that the State had no control over it's own military at the time?


Are you claiming that a bit of redistribution from an enemy population to a friendly one is equivalent to genocide?

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.