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Intergalactic Summit

 
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Points made, bridges burned...

Author
Nick Bete
Highsec Haulers Inc.
#21 - 2013-08-24 23:30:55 UTC
Vikarion wrote:


You mean, should we be angry that the Gallente tried to starve us out, then tried to exterminate us, then spent one hundred years trying to conquer us, another hundred denying us our home, and then, when we had it, attempting to reconquer it?

Hmm. I'm thinking...yes.


If your ancestors hadn't been duplicitous bastards in the first place hiding their stargates and bases with dreams of expansion unfettered by any obligations to their partners... I think you see where I'm going here. You, like the slavers, set the stage for events that unfolded yet, now you cry and try to play the aggrieved party. How cute.

Scherezad
Revenent Defence Corperation
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#22 - 2013-08-24 23:40:53 UTC
Nick Bete wrote:
Vikarion wrote:


You mean, should we be angry that the Gallente tried to starve us out, then tried to exterminate us, then spent one hundred years trying to conquer us, another hundred denying us our home, and then, when we had it, attempting to reconquer it?

Hmm. I'm thinking...yes.


If your ancestors hadn't been duplicitous bastards in the first place hiding their stargates and bases with dreams of expansion unfettered by any obligations to their partners... I think you see where I'm going here. You, like the slavers, set the stage for events that unfolded yet, now you cry and try to play the aggrieved party. How cute.


Sir, do you mean to imply that an appropriate response to a political deception is attempted genocide and subjugation?

I am not sure if comparing the State to "slavers" is the most apt analogy. As I have said previously, however, I am no master of linguistics.
Repentence Tyrathlion
Tyrathlion Interstellar
#23 - 2013-08-25 00:28:42 UTC
Nick Bete wrote:
Vikarion wrote:


You mean, should we be angry that the Gallente tried to starve us out, then tried to exterminate us, then spent one hundred years trying to conquer us, another hundred denying us our home, and then, when we had it, attempting to reconquer it?

Hmm. I'm thinking...yes.


If your ancestors hadn't been duplicitous bastards in the first place hiding their stargates and bases with dreams of expansion unfettered by any obligations to their partners... I think you see where I'm going here. You, like the slavers, set the stage for events that unfolded yet, now you cry and try to play the aggrieved party. How cute.



I swear, all you Gallente loyalists seem to come off a mass production line with a few minor tweaks. Ixiris, Fred, to an extent Anslo, you... so self-righteous and arrogant in your perspectives. At least Anslo can take a joke and admit when he's in the wrong, and Ixiris can occasionally be insightful...

...but really, this post and the attitude behind it is why we have people like Diana Kim.
Indira Harashani
Tyrathlion Interstellar
#24 - 2013-08-25 00:57:43 UTC
Repentence Tyrathlion wrote:
Nick Bete wrote:

If your ancestors hadn't been duplicitous bastards in the first place hiding their stargates and bases with dreams of expansion unfettered by any obligations to their partners... I think you see where I'm going here. You, like the slavers, set the stage for events that unfolded yet, now you cry and try to play the aggrieved party. How cute.



I swear, all you Gallente loyalists seem to come off a mass production line with a few minor tweaks. Ixiris, Fred, to an extent Anslo, you... so self-righteous and arrogant in your perspectives. At least Anslo can take a joke and admit when he's in the wrong, and Ixiris can occasionally be insightful...

...but really, this post and the attitude behind it is why we have people like Diana Kim.


It seems odd, but I find those hailing from the Federation who have spent extended amounts of time in the Empire and Kingdom to be far more tolerable individuals than those of their countrymen who stay at home and play the part of obnoxious armchair politician instead of actually exposing themselves to the rest of the cluster.

This seems to hold true not only regardless of their personal beliefs on various subjects that pervade Amarrian and Khanid society, but also whether or not my interactions with (or observations of) them occur during or after their stay.

Lady Indira Harashani

Holder of the Kheryskova Archipelago, Kihtaled IV

Vikarion
Doomheim
#25 - 2013-08-25 01:45:27 UTC
Nick Bete wrote:
Vikarion wrote:


You mean, should we be angry that the Gallente tried to starve us out, then tried to exterminate us, then spent one hundred years trying to conquer us, another hundred denying us our home, and then, when we had it, attempting to reconquer it?

Hmm. I'm thinking...yes.


If your ancestors hadn't been duplicitous bastards in the first place hiding their stargates and bases with dreams of expansion unfettered by any obligations to their partners... I think you see where I'm going here. You, like the slavers, set the stage for events that unfolded yet, now you cry and try to play the aggrieved party. How cute.



You mean, being duplicitous bastards in regards to wanting out from under the Federation that we were forced to join? Oh my, yes, how terrible of us. Gee, who would ever have thought that a people who felt that they were losing their cultural and political independence might decide to take the terrible, terrible step of trying to peacefully establish some colonies for those who wanted to maintain their unique heritage. Why, it's almost as bad as those ungrateful Minmatar not wanting to join themselves to the long and great history of the Amarr, Khanid, and Udorians.

Fun fact: out of all the nations in the cluster, the Amarrian Empire and the Gallente Federation are the most alike in their methodology. Sure, one wants to clap you in irons, but the real truth is that the goal of both systems is to make you just like them. Both Empire and Federation have their holy beliefs which it is heresy to rebel against, and both refuse to consider any ideology or political organization other than their own as acceptable.
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#26 - 2013-08-25 05:55:20 UTC
Nick Bete wrote:
Vikarion wrote:


You mean, should we be angry that the Gallente tried to starve us out, then tried to exterminate us, then spent one hundred years trying to conquer us, another hundred denying us our home, and then, when we had it, attempting to reconquer it?

Hmm. I'm thinking...yes.


If your ancestors hadn't been duplicitous bastards in the first place hiding their stargates and bases with dreams of expansion unfettered by any obligations to their partners... I think you see where I'm going here. You, like the slavers, set the stage for events that unfolded yet, now you cry and try to play the aggrieved party. How cute.



You really ought to hunt out those statutes in the charter that threaten planetary blockade, bombardment and invasion as the punishment for TAX evasion.

The deal kept getting altered, kept getting worse all the time - so we terminated it. It was only when we threatened to leave that your bloody-handed ancestors panicked and sent in the troops.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.

Makkal Hanaya
Revenent Defence Corperation
#27 - 2013-08-25 06:48:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Makkal Hanaya
Alexa de'Crux wrote:
Hypothetically: What would happen if the Empire were to lay down arms -- to not offer a single shred of resistance when the Republic came to claim its people? If we were, in fact, to 'leave them the hell alone'?

The current situation between the Empire and the Republic is as much a product of historic grievances as it is of current policies. We* conquered their homelands, dispersed them throughout our empire, destroyed their culture and way of life, and imposed our Faith on them. And yes, we enslaved them, but that's one of many issued the Minmatar have with us.

If the Minmatar were allowed to 'reclaim' their Empire born cousins, it would be a mess.

But setting that aside, the Republic would still say 'The Empire is a large, imperialistic entity that poses a threat to us. They have conquered us once and even though we're no longer enslaved, they may try to do so ago.' This would be the basis of defensive measures that are rather offensive in nature because much of what the Empire does could be seen as provocation.

While slavery is a big issue, the problems are much deeper and more complex than one issue.

*I use the term 'we' because the Kingdom had not yet split from the Empire.

Render unto Khanid the things which are Khanid's; and unto God the things that are God's.

Ava Starfire
Khushakor Clan
#28 - 2013-08-25 11:54:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Ava Starfire
The number of non-Matari, arguing, once again, over what me and mine would do, is troubling.

Of course, I guess we're no strangers to those around us making our decisions for us, mm?

"There is no strength in numbers; have no such misconception." -Jayka Vofur, "Warfare in the North"

Repentence Tyrathlion
Tyrathlion Interstellar
#29 - 2013-08-25 12:02:03 UTC
Ava Starfire wrote:
The number of non-Matari, arguing, once again, over what me and mine would do, is troubling.

Of course, I guess we're no strangers to those around us making our decisions for us, mm?


Ava, sweety, everyone gets that treatment.
Ava Starfire
Khushakor Clan
#30 - 2013-08-25 12:13:21 UTC
Repentence Tyrathlion wrote:
Ava Starfire wrote:
The number of non-Matari, arguing, once again, over what me and mine would do, is troubling.

Of course, I guess we're no strangers to those around us making our decisions for us, mm?


Ava, sweety, everyone gets that treatment.


Do they? At this level? Every other post anymore is "Minmatar will do this" "Minmatar must do that" "Oh, I think we should just take over and do this". It's ******* tiring.

Here is the Minmatar reality:

We are essentially faced with the decision of "which master do we pick", not "what direction do we wish for ourselves."

We have the Empire, who has been our master before, and who makes it well know they want more than anything to be so again; the only question is "when".

Were the Empire to one day no longer exist, the days before the Republic were merely another member state in the Federation - at best - would be numbered. Period.

Both desire to do so because they believe us incapable of directing ourselves. Of course, certain individuals within our government are doing all they can to provide that argument as much ammunition as possible.

How many people are waiting to stick a knife and fork in the kingdom, and divvy it up, mm?

God.

Everyone around treats a nation of people like disobedient children, then cries foul when they behave like them.

Perfect sense.


"There is no strength in numbers; have no such misconception." -Jayka Vofur, "Warfare in the North"

Nick Bete
Highsec Haulers Inc.
#31 - 2013-08-25 15:44:53 UTC
I have to disagree with Captain Starfire's assertion that the Federation wishes to turn the Republic into a member state but, the rest of her post is dead on. You people really need to find a new subject to harp on.

Why do some of you derive such apparent pleasure in the misfortunes of others? That kind of behavior speaks to deep seated psychological issues, in my opinion.
Nick Bete
Highsec Haulers Inc.
#32 - 2013-08-25 16:08:48 UTC
As to you myopic Caldari loyalists, I say look in the mirror. Closely. Did your ancestors attempt any negotiation or compromise with the Gallente? No. Instead they behaved like a naughty child who was caught with its hand in the cookie jar and complained that they weren't being allowed to act irresponsibly and in their own narrow interests, their partners be damned.

I'm more than willing to admit that the ultra-nationalist Gallente leadership of the time was wrong and heavy-handed in the way they treated your people. I'm more than willing to say that the blockade and orbital bombardment of Caldari Prime was beyond reprehensible and to say that I'm ashamed that my ancestors violated everything the Gallente stood for by their actions.

That is the true difference between the Federation and the State. We are willing to admit our mistakes and take responsibility for them. Our society is open for all to see, the good and the bad. The State is not, instead preferring to claim that they are pure, to blame others for their actions and when anyone dares to disagree claim that, "you do not understand what it means to be Caldari".
Naira Shandr
Doomheim
#33 - 2013-08-25 16:10:23 UTC
Nick Bete wrote:
Vikarion wrote:


You mean, should we be angry that the Gallente tried to starve us out, then tried to exterminate us, then spent one hundred years trying to conquer us, another hundred denying us our home, and then, when we had it, attempting to reconquer it?

Hmm. I'm thinking...yes.


If your ancestors hadn't been duplicitous bastards in the first place hiding their stargates and bases with dreams of expansion unfettered by any obligations to their partners... I think you see where I'm going here. You, like the slavers, set the stage for events that unfolded yet, now you cry and try to play the aggrieved party. How cute.




You would condemn the Caldari for hesitating to let a parasite feed off of their hardwork? Facisnating.
Shintoko Akahoshi
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#34 - 2013-08-25 20:18:20 UTC
Ava Starfire wrote:
Repentence Tyrathlion wrote:
Ava Starfire wrote:
The number of non-Matari, arguing, once again, over what me and mine would do, is troubling.

Of course, I guess we're no strangers to those around us making our decisions for us, mm?


Ava, sweety, everyone gets that treatment.


Do they? At this level? Every other post anymore is "Minmatar will do this" "Minmatar must do that" "Oh, I think we should just take over and do this". It's ******* tiring.

Here is the Minmatar reality:

We are essentially faced with the decision of "which master do we pick", not "what direction do we wish for ourselves."


Starfire, you're inviting it. You're talking about the Republic, but you're using the words "Minmatar" and "Matari". There are trillions of Matari-identifying Federation citizens which those words include. Ammatar. Matari citizens of the State. Matari citizens of the Angel Cartel.

Honestly, I can see why you do it. You want the issues of the Republic to be the issues of all Matari. You want the Republic to be the Matari nation. I get that.

But you don't get to try that strategy and then object when others chime in with their opinions.

Oh, and for the record, Tyrathlion is right. Look at all the arguments coming out of the Republicans and Shakorites about how the Federation should behave. Look at their arguments about how the Empire should behave. And the State. Everyone does it, and it's perhaps the most hopeful thing we have in this cluster, because at least people are still communicating.

Bio and writing

(Nothing I say is indicative of corporate policy unless otherwise stated)

Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#35 - 2013-08-25 21:08:11 UTC
Nick Bete wrote:
I'm more than willing to admit that the ultra-nationalist Gallente leadership of the time was wrong and heavy-handed in the way they treated your people. I'm more than willing to say that the blockade and orbital bombardment of Caldari Prime was beyond reprehensible and to say that I'm ashamed that my ancestors violated everything the Gallente stood for by their actions.


First of all, thank you for this. Really. It's rare to see it admitted so openly and your willingness to combine the clarity to see it and the self-respect to admit it is very praise-worthy.

Nick Bete wrote:
That is the true difference between the Federation and the State. We are willing to admit our mistakes and take responsibility for them. Our society is open for all to see, the good and the bad. The State is not, instead preferring to claim that they are pure, to blame others for their actions and when anyone dares to disagree claim that, "you do not understand what it means to be Caldari".


What have we done that is so terrible? Do you include the fight where we chased your ancestors out of our space or the invasion where we reclaimed the Homeworld you'd kept from us for so long?

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.

Vikarion
Doomheim
#36 - 2013-08-25 21:08:31 UTC
Shintoko Akahoshi wrote:
Matari citizens of the State.


Not to be too nit-picky, but, technically, they are Caldari citizens of the State. The State is unconcerned about ethnicity, but anyone who migrates to the State is required to adopt the Caldari culture and methods. Those who do so are Caldari, regardless of genetic origin. Someone who was born to Minmatar parents, if he has become a State citizen, fully adopted Caldari culture and mores, and has committed himself to the Caldari people...is not Minmatar. He is as Caldari as I am. And anyone who thinks that they can then dictate to us their belief that he is somehow set apart will get precisely what they deserve.
Katrina Oniseki
Oniseki-Raata Internal Watch
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#37 - 2013-08-25 21:21:44 UTC
Ava Starfire wrote:

Everyone around treats a nation of people like disobedient children, then cries foul when they behave like them.

Perfect sense.


It's not your entire nation of people. It's your government. Sanmatar Maleatu Shakor.

We had a similar situation not that long ago. For five years, the State suffered under the inept and hate-fueled rule of Tibus Heth. So hellbent on taking his revenge on the Federation, he slowly drove our economy into the ground. A litany of crimes followed in his wake, and I'm sure you don't need a history lesson on which ones. The end result was that over time, the entire Caldari State became almost synonymous with the shameful actions of one man and his cronies.

Then we cleaned house.

Now look at yourselves. How much of your nation lives without basic infrastructure? How many villages have running water and electricity? How is it that your people languish in poverty while Shakor continues to pour money into your war machines, and you still fly for him? For too long Shakor has antagonized and raided not just your ancient enemies (which we can understand your hatred of the Empire), but nearly everybody else. CONCORD, the Federation, even the State. We've all been victims of his stereotypical ham-fisted diplomacy. He has attacked your allies and your protectors. He has left your economy in ruins. Now your enemies rally at your doorstep. What will you do?

Maybe it's time for you to take a tip from the State and work on getting rid of Shakor, instead of supporting him?

Stop flying for him. Stop fighting for him.

Stop enabling him.

If however you choose not to take my advice and continue supporting the Sanmatar, stop whining.

Katrina Oniseki

Ava Starfire
Khushakor Clan
#38 - 2013-08-25 22:24:04 UTC
These responses to me are not unexpected.

They are also not wholly wrong.

What is it that you think I can do that matters? What is it that I can do that will force the Sanmatar to step down? I cannot turn my back on my duty to my alliance, and my people. Due to my position within my alliance, I must be very careful what I decide, both personally and professionally, and how I go about stating my position, defending it, and so on.

I hate Shakor. I hate his war. I hate that we invaded an ally, and broke the Treaty of Yulai again, and I hate that I had part in it.

I also have a duty to uphold, I have expectations on me, heavy ones. I have done my best to explain to many of you what Tribalism "is", how Minmatar society varies from yours. I think most of you have some idea what I mean. I am one small Minmatar, in a very big cluster, and I am not a terribly important one at that.

But, some of what you have said to me, today, here, is indeed correct. I cannot deny that.

In short:

What would you have me do? You wanted my attention? You have it. You wanted to go on a passionate, windy monologue? Please continue. I am all ears. I am listening.

What do you want me to do?

"There is no strength in numbers; have no such misconception." -Jayka Vofur, "Warfare in the North"

Katrina Oniseki
Oniseki-Raata Internal Watch
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#39 - 2013-08-25 22:38:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Katrina Oniseki
Ava Starfire wrote:

In short:

What would you have me do? You wanted my attention? You have it. You wanted to go on a passionate, windy monologue? Please continue. I am all ears. I am listening.

What do you want me to do?


I know you'll laugh in my face about this, or simply reject it out of hand - but you asked me what I would have you do, so I'll tell you.

Start by attempting to change the popular misconception that fighting in the militia is the only way to support your nation. I don't even need to tell you that much, yet you keep coming back to it.

I don't expect Gradient or Electus Matari will ever back down from the warzone, but your organization does have other options. Consider securing space in the Great Wildlands and assisting with the development of those areas. Secure new trade routes, stimulate the markets, fight piracy, protect colonies.

You can lobby for change in your organization. You can make calls for a different direction, and you can demand accountability for the support of Shakor.

If your peers refuse to consider any other option than fighting in the TLF, and if your words would go unheeded... well? Leave.

Find something else to do with your life. Run an orphanage, fight the Cartel alone, join a different capsuleer group like Re-Awakened Technologies?

You seem to be under the impression that you have no choices, but the reality is that you have many choices.

Katrina Oniseki

Jandice Ymladris
Aurora Arcology
#40 - 2013-08-25 22:41:05 UTC
You could call for a Tribal meeting, with Shakor and the leaders of the Republic, you do seem to hold alot of influence and have gathered alot of goodwill from many.
Find out how to bring the republic back to it's spiritual heart of Freedom. Find a way to turn the chaos that is disrupting the workings of the republic to an inner peace that will strengthen itself once more. You cannot be the only one to see this.

Currently, the republic is on a ramcourse with it's own destruction, it does not have the might nor allies to oppose the Amarr Empire, and the Empire has powerful figures just waiting for the Republic to make a mistake. No-one is asking you to give up fighting for your people, most just ask to do it sensible. there are many ways to fight for your people.

If the fight for freedom leads to the destruction of the republic, it cannot be worth it, for if a fight for freedom results in the destruction of freedom's home, then it is nothing but a veiled path of slavery, not by the amarr, but by the republic itself.

Providing a new home for refugees in the Aurora Arcology