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T2 Ship Invention - Decryptors

Author
Endo Riftbreaker
Original Sinners
Northern Coalition.
#1 - 2013-08-21 15:20:07 UTC
All,

I'm relatively new to industry but am planning on starting up a small operation focusing on T2 ships. Looking at the math, it seems like the only decryptor worth using is the Optimized Esoteric Augmentation that gives you 7 runs and ME 2. Otherwise, it doesn't seem like you can get enough runs of the T2 ship to recoup the cost.

Is this basically accurate? It's hard to find good industry info on the web, as a lot of it is out of date (ie pre-Odyssey)

Thanks!
Elena Thiesant
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#2 - 2013-08-21 15:48:54 UTC
No, not at all. The +3ME +3PE one is very good. The others that give a +ME are useful. Personally I wouldn't use the ones that decrease ME, but I know some people do.

To be honest, I would strongly recommend someone who is new to industry staying away from ships early on. T1 and T2. They're expensive, relativity low margin, relatively low demand and lots of competition. T2 ships even more so.

And the old standard - if you can't make a profit making something, don't make it.

Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
#3 - 2013-08-21 15:51:00 UTC
There are excellent programs out there to help you decide (I happen to be partial to IPH but this one is also great). There are definitely other factors to consider.

Also, and I'm very serious about this, do yourself a favor and don't start with ships. Break into invention with modules. The margins on most ships are very tight and the market is... less favorable than usual at the moment.
Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
#4 - 2013-08-21 15:53:50 UTC
3 1/2 years here.

Starting out with T2 ships is not a good move. It's a very competitive and vicious market.

I took a 750,000,000 ISK bath on making Deep Space Transports about 2 years ago.

Start small, learn the ropes, and build up from there. Get your PI production lines going for what you might need later on for manufacturing T2.

Build up slowly.

"He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."  - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882

Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
#5 - 2013-08-21 15:54:29 UTC
wow. We all 3 hopped right on it. Smile

"He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."  - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882

Endo Riftbreaker
Original Sinners
Northern Coalition.
#6 - 2013-08-21 15:56:43 UTC
Yeah I'm going to do some modules as well. I've been playing around with this tool:

http://www.eve-cost.eu/

Which seems to be up to date. For modules, is the max run decryptor also the one to use?

I have some PI going as well (currently living in WH space)

Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#7 - 2013-08-21 15:57:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Steve Ronuken
That all depends on which ship you're making

And it's not ME 2. No decryptor will give you a positive ME. It's a -2 ME.

Anyway (unless I've introduced a bug with recent updates. I'm pretty sure I haven't) for a Cheetah, it looks like Cryptic Accelerant gives a better result.

https://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/blueprints/0/11182/-4/5/-4/5 Just click on the blue Invention Calculator text to get the calculator up. Compare the isk/hr s with the different decryptors.

Of course, no warranty is given. Doing your own numbers is always an idea.



Oh, and for modules? Generally avoid decryptors.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter

Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
#8 - 2013-08-21 16:00:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Zhilia Mann
Steve Ronuken wrote:
That all depends on which ship you're making

And it's not ME 2. No decryptor will give you a positive ME. It's a -2 ME.

Anyway (unless I've introduced a bug with recent updates. I'm pretty sure I haven't) for a Cheetah, it looks like Cryptic Accelerant gives a better result.

https://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/blueprints/0/11182/-4/5/-4/5 Just click on the blue Invention Calculator text to get the calculator up. Compare the isk/hr s with the different decryptors.

Of course, no warranty is given. Doing your own numbers is always an idea.



Oh, and for modules? Generally avoid decryptors.


I was actually poking around looking for where you had that hidden. Good stuff. Not the UI I prefer, but good stuff.
Elena Thiesant
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#9 - 2013-08-21 16:05:40 UTC
Endo Riftbreaker wrote:
Which seems to be up to date. For modules, is the max run decryptor also the one to use?


For modules you probably don't want to use any decryptors at all. But do the maths and see.

Seriously, stay away from ships to start with. Modules are great. Ammo requires massive patience but has good margins. Ships... What?

I've got a pile of T2 ships that have been on the market for over 2 weeks now, prices dropping, not selling.
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#10 - 2013-08-21 16:10:11 UTC
Zhilia Mann wrote:
Steve Ronuken wrote:
That all depends on which ship you're making

And it's not ME 2. No decryptor will give you a positive ME. It's a -2 ME.

Anyway (unless I've introduced a bug with recent updates. I'm pretty sure I haven't) for a Cheetah, it looks like Cryptic Accelerant gives a better result.

https://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/blueprints/0/11182/-4/5/-4/5 Just click on the blue Invention Calculator text to get the calculator up. Compare the isk/hr s with the different decryptors.

Of course, no warranty is given. Doing your own numbers is always an idea.



Oh, and for modules? Generally avoid decryptors.


I was actually poking around looking for where you had that hidden. Good stuff. Not the UI I prefer, but good stuff.



Any suggestions on how to make it more obvious? As you might have realised, I'm not exactly a design Guru. Blink

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter

Endo Riftbreaker
Original Sinners
Northern Coalition.
#11 - 2013-08-21 19:56:33 UTC
Guys,

I have another question. Does it matter how many runs the T1 BPC I use for the invention has? Trying to figure out if I should use 1 run BPCs or go for max runs.

Thanks
Elena Thiesant
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#12 - 2013-08-21 20:13:36 UTC
Ships, rigs -> 1 run
Modules, drones, ammo -> max run

You could also read through the wiki article on invention where this is all discussed.
https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Invention
Selaria Unbertable
Bellator in Capsulam
#13 - 2013-08-21 21:11:33 UTC
Zhilia Mann wrote:
There are excellent programs out there to help you decide (I happen to be partial to IPH but this one is also great). There are definitely other factors to consider.

Also, and I'm very serious about this, do yourself a favor and don't start with ships. Break into invention with modules. The margins on most ships are very tight and the market is... less favorable than usual at the moment.


This is about it. You might also want to take a look into ammo and drones. Cheap regarding production, and with a good profit margin. Plus, the ammo blueprints don't need any research at all to build their T2 variants (because you don't need T1 ammo as materials for T2, just to clarify).
From my experience so far, certain modules as well as ammo and drones sell quite well. You probably want to check your local market to decide what to build before purchasing blueprints though.
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#14 - 2013-08-21 22:57:32 UTC
Sabriz Adoudel
Move along there is nothing here
#15 - 2013-08-22 06:52:50 UTC
Ammo is good to learn with as stated. It's always profitable to make (unless you are stupid enough to use very expensive decryptors), but the ISK per production hour is awful.

My rule of thumb is this (post Odyssey crashing decryptor prices):

Modules under 1200k ISK - Never use a decryptor
Modules 1200k-3m ISK - Consider using a decryptor, run the numbers on it before deciding. Do not use a decryptor that increases material waste in most circumstances.
Modules over 3m ISK - Use a decryptor that reduces material waste unless you are absolutely certain that you should not.
Ammunition: Consider using a cheap decryptor, if and only if it significantly drops production time. Do not be afraid to use a decryptor that increases material waste if the numbers support it.
Ships under 50m ISK - Give thought to using a decryptor that reduces material waste.
Ships over 50m ISK - Do not even consider inventing one of these without a decryptor that reduces material waste. Use the best available one unless the numbers strongly suggest otherwise.

I support the New Order and CODE. alliance. www.minerbumping.com

Jakob Anedalle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#16 - 2013-08-23 16:21:29 UTC
I was just getting my industrial alt ready to make T2 ships when the profit margin on the target ship range flipped heavy negative, so I guess that's the swing you folks are talking about.

The big reason I was thinking about doing ships was for long job times. Maybe that sounds backwards, so let me explain. With modules I felt like I needed to log in once a day and do indy stuff - heck some of those jobs are 2 hour jobs and that's just not going to happen for those of us with full time jobs and families. The tools may tell me that module IPH is better, but that assumes I'm keeping those jobs turning over 23/7. The idea of queueing a bunch of long-run jobs up and coming back in a few days sounds a lot better.

So I hear the "stay away from ships, it's rough" advice - but any suggestions on not having your industry work keep you spending too much time away from your PVP?

Trying out all the things to do here in Eve - it's quite a checklist. So I made a blog Jakob's Eve Checklist

Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#17 - 2013-08-23 16:35:28 UTC
That's the reasoning behind the isk/hr averaged for 24 hours runs on my site (added in for any T2 runs).
Smile

You can make a high isk/hr for drones. But unless you're logging in every 4 hours to change it, you'll never hit that for 24 hours.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter

Praxis Ginimic
Best Kept Frozen.
Domain Research and Mining Inst.
#18 - 2013-08-23 17:25:01 UTC
Don't calculate ISK per hour. Calculate ISK per run
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#19 - 2013-08-23 17:29:25 UTC
Praxis Ginimic wrote:
Don't calculate ISK per hour. Calculate ISK per run



When a run takes 20 hours, is it better than a run that takes 1 hour, but makes 10 times the isk/hr (But half the isk/run)?



Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter

Gianath
Gallentian Legitimate Businessmen
#20 - 2013-08-23 18:01:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Gianath
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Praxis Ginimic wrote:
Don't calculate ISK per hour. Calculate ISK per run



When a run takes 20 hours, is it better than a run that takes 1 hour, but makes 10 times the isk/hr (But half the isk/run)?





Diversifying and making a few different things is good. Even your best selling products will not sell if you flood the market with it.

Also, if you force yourself to keep signing in to the game once per hour, 24 times per day just to go through the amazing clickfest that is inventing modules/drones/ammo, you are going to get burnt out.

I like to break my invention up so I can get in a few modules and ammo during the day, and I might set a longer invention run (some ships) during the night or when I will be gone for awhile. Yeah, I know I probably won't build the ships or try to sell them any time soon, but it takes some of the stress away that comes with knowing you have invention slots sitting idle.