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Crime & Punishment

 
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The Joke That is "Piracy Honor".

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Maccian
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#21 - 2013-08-22 02:21:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Maccian
Interesting post.

Honour is such a big word....Pirate
I think its more about respect and trust. If a pirate pods someone after successfully ransoming their pod the pirate involved will loose respect and trust from that victim and gain a reputation for it. That goes for the corporation/alliance as well. Next time around that pirate or entity encounters a situation where he sees profit from a deal of sorts with their victims there is less chance a deal will be struck because of a lack of trust and respect.

Tell me if you think otherwise but I think "almost" all pirates would agree with the above.

Personally I almost never ransom people, unless on the rare occasion I think the ISK that could be made beats what I value the kill mail. I may however want to ransom only to troll someone. More often than ransoming I have let people's pods go. For me, there isn't enough profit in ransoming pods. I have also tried in the past and been refused, whether it was because of the general trust in a pirates honour or because I just ruined their day I don;t know. The few ransoms I bothered with and were successful I honoured.

Another point is Its similar to honouring agreed 1v1s. If a corp doesn't have a reputaion for it they can't expect anyone to ask or believe them.

Follow up questions:

"Comrade Answers" wrote:
Is low sec piracy still a thing?
Can you turn off smartbomb cycle fast enough to demand ransom?


Piracy is great fun if you like explosions, fear and terror. Big smile

Mac
Tara Read
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#22 - 2013-08-22 04:05:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Tara Read
Sky' Darkstar wrote:
So,

I'm pretty sure this would be the correct place to post this. P

First off, if you came expecting a rage thread about being blown up and a pirate lying through their teeth, I'm afraid you will be sorely disappointed. Sad

This is actually quite the opposite.

This is a simple question to all of the pirates, victims of piracy, low-sec dwellers who have seen the pirate/victim banter in local, and just generally anyone with an opinion on the "honor" within EVE related to piracy/ganking/griefing.

I'll cut to the chase.

I've been reading various threads within C&P as well as other sub forums, and I am getting a sort of hypocritical and inconsistent viewpoint from the EVE population relating to what "honor" is in EVE concerning piracy/ransoms specifically.

CCP Falcon can be quoted shaming "dishonorable" piracy, in which the pirate does not honor a simple ship ransom, but then will post in heist threads congratulating the corp thief.

Popular/Well-known pilots from pirate alliances such as (just an example) Shadow Cartel can be found strongly disapproving/calling out pirates who blow up a ship after a ransom is already paid, but can then found mocking a "stupid" Indy pilot who just lost his Itty I/Badger to their 25 man camp with no chance of survival.

Now, as I said before, I have absolutely no problem, and actually encourage any sort of piracy in EVE because it is one of the most fun activities to partake in. However I am slightly confused on the aspect of how "honoring ransom" is such a huge " OMG NO HONOR UR NOT A REAL PIRATE U HAVE NO HONOR IN A SPACESHIP VIDEOGAME!!" freakout when it comes to this one specific aspect of piracy.

(no sarcasm)
Is it a business thing? Do other pirates really believe that if their pirate...er...competition.... doesn't honor ransoms that it will cut into their profits?

In modern day EVE, where people don't even bat an eye at a billion ISK exchanging hands, is ransoming income still actually used as a means to fuel an account/ship replacements?

It is just odd to me that we have these "white knight" pirates/mindset that think they can define piracy just because they perform it a certain way and attach "honor" onto situations that fit them, while disregarding it when it doesn't apply to their play style that day.

If blowing someone up after they paid a ransom to you while warp scrambled and helpless is not "honorable piracy", then neither is smartbombing on the exit gate of Amamake, getting close to a CEO just to steal 100B down the road, or recruiting a corpmate that flies shinies only to blow them up. So why do we pretend to ignore "honor" in those cases and just say the catchy "EVE is a hard backstabbing universe etc etc", but scream "NO HONOR URA FAKE PIR8!!!" when it comes to not honoring ship ransoms?

Honor =/= Being a pirate, and that's totally fine!, and also a great/enjoyable part about being the outlaw. I would like opinions please!


I've covered this in detail in an earlier beta guide defining Piracy and specifically in the case of ransoming. Shadow Cartel holds itself to a higher standard than typical scum and for good reason: through trusted word uneasy bonds are formed. Those who call upon us for juicy kills be they a Nyx, Erebus, Moros, or other typical big targets requiring firepower we can muster knows that one simple fact remains: our word is bond.

Go back on your word and people stop calling. Trust dries up. You garner a reputation of "just being like everyone else." Piracy "Honor" is simply a matter of convenience tied in with the truth that motive and bigger gains are to be had if one only has the patience and looking at the forest from the tree's in matters than even those seen in the immediate.

I'll put it to you this way in the case of ransoming. Reputation is everything. Sure you could go back on your word, kill a Faction BS and take whatever loot drops plus the bounty. But think of the long term. No one trusts you. No one accepts your offer of ransom. Because you burned a crucial bridge between victim and Pirate.

Power is not just blowing someone up or bragging on a certain killmail. It's control that counts. Instilling dominance over a potential target, letting you show them that through frail mercy restraint and maturity is proven in spite of short sighted gains. And THAT is when you've arrived.

Piracy isn't a meager profession. It's a way of life. A way of code bathed in the blood of enemies, forged through the fires of combat, tested in the face of riches, and one of the harshest yet most rewarding paths you can take in New Eden....

"Honorable" Piracy is far from dead. In fact it's stronger than it has ever been. Ransoms have turned into huge potential kills, victims to entire fleets, and simple "loot" into swathes of Billions of isk... Adapting is always at the forefront of those in Eve. Adapt toward the new ways of Piracy and great reward is to be had if only you have patience.
Tauranon
Weeesearch
CAStabouts
#23 - 2013-08-22 05:10:38 UTC
Sky' Darkstar wrote:


I've been reading various threads within C&P as well as other sub forums, and I am getting a sort of hypocritical and inconsistent viewpoint from the EVE population relating to what "honor" is in EVE concerning piracy/ransoms specifically.

CCP Falcon can be quoted shaming "dishonorable" piracy, in which the pirate does not honor a simple ship ransom, but then will post in heist threads congratulating the corp thief.



Its not an inconsistent outlook imo.

It is reasonable for a victim of someone that doesn't honor their word to spread the word about that fact, and its reasonable for a CCP employee to encourage that behavior. ie they intend after all for there to be reactions to actions in the game. CCP would also be perfectly happy to see 20 such victims jump through the gate where that pirate worked, and give that pirate and his crew a royal spanking, and thats not going to occur if victims never think about standing up for themselves in a multiplayer game.

It is also reasonable for a CCP employee to encourage perpetrators of heists, because they also intend for it to be part of possible gameplay, and falcon would be just as likely to congratulate a recruitment officer for spotting an applicant with a history if he happened to be engaged in that thread.

I'm also perfectly happy with _my_ lowsec being defended by bloodthirsty dishonorable pirates who would take my ship if given a chance, since I don't have to pay them and I'd have to shoot bear that was in _my_ content myself all the time otherwise.
Don Purple
Snuggle Society
Snuggle Society.
#24 - 2013-08-22 05:55:53 UTC
I honor my ransoms if we have time to chat, most of my work is done through contracts and I believe any of my previous clients can vouch for me. I will not shoot a contract holder even if their minions are trying to station camp me or some foolish notion like that (unless told otherwise). I got bored in low sec real fast, all the fun is our here in high sec. On another note a good friend tossed me 10b in a game to question my integrity and I gave it back without a second thought. On hindsight I probably should have kept it, so many gank talos's lost Roll. (said person may or may not have had large amounts of blackmail material)

I am just here to snuggle and do spy stuff.
Sabriz Adoudel
Move along there is nothing here
#25 - 2013-08-22 06:44:15 UTC
Comrade Answers wrote:
Follow up questions:

Is low sec piracy still a thing?
Can you turn off smartbomb cycle fast enough to demand ransom?


Lowsec piracy is in a bad way at the moment unless you pick one of a small number of systems where it is effective. Doing this might involve dislodging an entity that are already there.

Jump freighters in particular, and ore compression to a lesser extent, drastically reduce the amount of vulnerable slow ships travelling through lowsec. Exploration changes in Odyssey partially improved this, but they don't encourage people to fly expensive ships in lowsec. Whilst you will occasionally catch someone with valuable cargo, it's not that often.

Highsec piracy is better as there is just much more prey.


As for smartbombs - ask one of the experts in Rancer local. Make sure to enter via Crilere (sp) so you live long enough to ask.

I support the New Order and CODE. alliance. www.minerbumping.com
Lugia3
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#26 - 2013-08-22 09:45:39 UTC
Honor is bad for business. Pirate

"CCP Dolan is full of shit." - CCP Bettik
Tara Read
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#27 - 2013-08-22 10:02:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Tara Read
Lugia3 wrote:
Honor is bad for business. Pirate


You are so wrong.... Business is propagated through reputation. Have a reputation for being an awoxing, lying sack of monkey Sh%t and no one will ever consider you for "business" no matter what including risking assets or letting you come along for juicy kills. I have the privilege of being a contact for various persons if needed to be called upon.

That's something I pride myself on. Garnering a reputation for being fierce, ruthless, yet almost fanatically loyal in word and action goes along way when something big is on the line.
Eugene Kerner
TunDraGon
Goonswarm Federation
#28 - 2013-08-22 10:21:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Eugene Kerner
Sky' Darkstar wrote:
Kristoffon Ellecon wrote:
tl,dr



Yes you did, because you saw Shadow Cartel in it. Big smile

**** now I have to read it

Edit:
******* Bait.

Well, honoring a ransom is something you do or something you don´t do.
We are known to honor ransoms so people actually are willing to negotiate ransom and pay it likewise.
lots of satisfied costumers.

TunDraGon is recruiting! "Also, your boobs [:o] "   CCP Eterne, 2012 "When in doubt...make a diȼk joke." Robin Williams - RIP
Zappity
New Eden Tank Testing Services
#29 - 2013-08-22 11:10:24 UTC
Lugia3 wrote:
Honor is bad for business. Pirate


When you grow up you will understand the importance of a reputation. It has tangible value and you are clearly not capitalising on it.

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.
Jamwara DelCalicoe Ashley
New Eden Tech Support
#30 - 2013-08-22 13:59:02 UTC
Andracin wrote:
I look at it in organized crime terms. If Im shaking down a gas station owner for money and he pays me what good does it do for me to shoot him? The next guy guy I shake down probably isn't going to pay if he hears about the first. If your in a location in low sec long enough your reputation proceeds you, especially with repeat vic...er customers.

For me I enjoy low sec around FW areas because there is almost always instant pvp as soon as I log in. I don't gank people in plexes to be a deuche. I do it because Im looking for a fight. There have been several times I've talked with my victims after and the polite ones usually end up getting ships, isk and adivce on things from fittings to tactics. Im not alone one of my corp mates fit and gave away an incursus to a guy he had just killed who had only played for a week.


:D I stand by the friendly-follow-up as being a great recruiting tool - especially for newer pilots that like to can-flip/loot other people's assets without understanding the risk they are exposing themselves to by doing so. As I'm not really a "pirate" or any good @ PVP these opportunities are rare ... but man oh man, the sweet taste of justice ...

Nom nom nom

Thank me later :D
Jamwara DelCalicoe Ashley
New Eden Tech Support
#31 - 2013-08-22 14:06:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Jamwara DelCalicoe Ashley
My earliest experience with pirate honor takes me back to my first ship-loss at the hands of Deadspace Oblivion. I was coming through a hi-sec stargate and found a Gnosis next to a wrecked Venture and the floating corpse... being a new pilot, the temptation was too much to resist. So, I aligned to a planet on the far side of the corpse and moved in for the lootz.

I got the corpse but not much further before being blown up ... shocking, I know.

Not long after that a chat window opened up with Oblivion Deadspace lol'ing at my stupidity :D We chatted for a bit on the honor of "the noble pirate" ... what happened next blew my mind - he sent me 10M ISK and gave my salvaged mods back etc

I realize that this is not the norm and that I did not deserve his charity - I did learn a valuable lesson "Gnosis beats Venture, everytime. Don't be a spacetard"

Thank me later :D
Psychotic Monk
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#32 - 2013-08-22 14:36:02 UTC
Finding that the person who murdered you can be friendly and helpful and willing to give advice is actually quite common in both highsec and lowsec piracy. It's just that people are often too busy calling you a sociopath in order to take advantage of it.

Belligerent Undesirables Selling Griefer Immunity
Baaldor
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#33 - 2013-08-22 14:46:55 UTC
Psychotic Monk wrote:
Finding that the person who murdered you can be friendly and helpful and willing to give advice is actually quite common in both highsec and lowsec piracy. It's just that people are often too busy calling you a sociopath in order to take advantage of it.



This^^


The local spurge rants, "wishing my anus would seal shut causing my death from intestinal blockage" is quite entertaining.

It does not however lend to any sort of motivation to strike up a conversation about "hey next time you may want to...."
Lugia3
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#34 - 2013-08-22 15:42:43 UTC
Zappity wrote:
Lugia3 wrote:
Honor is bad for business. Pirate


When you grow up


You do not know my age. It is easily possible that I'm older than you.

Anyway, that all depends on your outlook of being a pirate. Mine is more geared towards tear extraction. Killing someone after they pay up usually provides fresh tears.

"CCP Dolan is full of shit." - CCP Bettik
Etuura Zellis
Scarlet Corsairs
#35 - 2013-08-22 19:15:07 UTC
Sky' Darkstar wrote:

Gotcha, and fully understood. It's the "pirate honor" concept that is lost on me.

I can completely get the business perspective.


I think you've missed something here, it's the concept of honor that seems lost on you. Certain activities can't even be attributed as honorable or not because there's not enough of an interaction between participants for it to be relevant. Additionally certain piracy activities are inherently dishonorable by nature, ie. corporate theft. Being able to give someone your word and have them trust you will actually follow through is invaluable particularly with regards to activities that require repeat business to be succesfull. "Pirate honor" isn't what you think it is, it's more about reputation then anything else.
War Kitten
Panda McLegion
#36 - 2013-08-22 19:23:55 UTC
The distinction is in keeping one's word.

A person can be of questionable morals, willing to break the rules, blow you up, or steal your stuff on a daily basis, and still be true to his word. Such a person can be a valuable and even trustworthy ally.

But a person that will break his word is not one you ever want to give roles to. He places no value in his promises, why should you?

At this point, it might be worth drawing the distinction between telling a lie and keeping one's word, but that's an advanced class in morality.

I don't judge people by their race, religion, color, size, age, gender, or ethnicity. I judge them by their grammar, spelling, syntax, punctuation, clarity of expression, and logical consistency.
Zappity
New Eden Tank Testing Services
#37 - 2013-08-22 20:26:04 UTC
Lugia3 wrote:
Zappity wrote:
Lugia3 wrote:
Honor is bad for business. Pirate


When you grow up


You do not know my age. It is easily possible that I'm older than you.

Anyway, that all depends on your outlook of being a pirate. Mine is more geared towards tear extraction. Killing someone after they pay up usually provides fresh tears.


You'll also learn that maturity and age don't necessarily correlate. But I guess all this is irrelevant for your play style anyway.

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.
Darvaleth Sigma
Imperial Security Hegemony
#38 - 2013-08-22 22:09:39 UTC
Some people want a KM more than they want ISK, so they won't honour a ransom. Of course, if they could also make some ISK out of the situation... why not both?

People get annoyed at the non-honour pirates because it affects the general view. Today, more than ever before, I'd say the general consensus is ransoms should never be paid, and that once a pirate has got you nothing is going to stop it short of a Titan missclick. Capsuleers adopt the "no negotiation" policy, and honoured ransoms are very rare. People who try to make money out of ransoms are obviously going to be pissed when nobody believes them and never pay up...

Give a man a match and you warm him for a day.

Set a man on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life!
El Zeta
Maricel Inc
#39 - 2013-08-23 01:51:51 UTC  |  Edited by: El Zeta
Darvaleth Sigma wrote:
Some people want a KM more than they want ISK, so they won't honour a ransom. Of course, if they could also make some ISK out of the situation... why not both?

People get annoyed at the non-honour pirates because it affects the general view. Today, more than ever before, I'd say the general consensus is ransoms should never be paid, and that once a pirate has got you nothing is going to stop it short of a Titan missclick. Capsuleers adopt the "no negotiation" policy, and honoured ransoms are very rare.
People who try to make money out of ransoms are obviously going to be pissed when nobody believes them and never pay up...



How can they get pissed? if you pay I let you go if you don't I blow you up.

My game is being done my way at that moment, and the victim has a decision to make quick either way the victim is not playing it's game but my game and at the end dead or on their way the pirate wins.


edit: Tara you are my hero! Twisted
Tara Read
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#40 - 2013-08-23 06:46:33 UTC
El Zeta wrote:


edit: Tara you are my hero! Twisted


T..thanks? Lol Big smile
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