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The Great Ice Mining Interdiction: Not so Great

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Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#321 - 2013-08-21 20:51:21 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Captain Tardbar wrote:


1 Cata with T1 may risk not killing a Mack if it has a tank which the Cata could have checked.
15 Catas with T2 blasters have about 0% risk of not blowing up a Mack.


You could still get no loot. The risk in EVE is not only linked to losing ships.



It does when you're killing to kill. Or at least for the nature of "ganking".


You still have risks. You could still mess up the gank. You only know the results when it's all over. Before that there is risk of it failing because all the possible outcome are not in your favor.



That's not the point. We are talking about the act of suicide ganking being a risk. It isn't. The risk is whether you kill the target or not. Whether you fail to gank, or succeed, your ship is lost for simply in trying.

It doesn't matter whether that target had 300 plex or gets away, your ship blows up no matter what. So it's a cost, and not risk.

The risk, comes from success, not the result of your ship. That's a cost. Atleast, CCP has kept changing Concord to make sure it has been (as proven by other people by making changes).

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#322 - 2013-08-21 20:51:27 UTC
Murk Paradox wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:


I can think of quite a few reasons that is not true, as I'm sure you could if I were to say those words to you sir.


No, It's a very easy to see fact. Outside of burn jita ganking is done for profit.



There is no profit in ganking scouts in noobships, although that can be argued, the prime reason for killing one is not for profit.

Or atleast, a LOT of noobships killed are never looted that I see when roaming across null. They are popped because they are alts, or because they do not belong in the same space I occupy, regardless if their hold is empty or full.

Now, YOU might only gank for profit, but meh, profit is definitely A reason to gank, but not the only reason.


You still face the risk of your target being more tanked than you imagined for example. What if he has links/implants? What if a friendly logi arrive before you finish dps'ing him down? Those are all risk you face when ganking even if you don't do it for profit.
MeestaPenni
Mercantile and Stuff
#323 - 2013-08-21 20:51:32 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
You only know the results when it's all over.


Oh no....you know at least one result before F1 is ever pressed. And it is a certainty.

I am not Prencleeve Grothsmore.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#324 - 2013-08-21 20:52:52 UTC
Murk Paradox wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Captain Tardbar wrote:


1 Cata with T1 may risk not killing a Mack if it has a tank which the Cata could have checked.
15 Catas with T2 blasters have about 0% risk of not blowing up a Mack.


You could still get no loot. The risk in EVE is not only linked to losing ships.



It does when you're killing to kill. Or at least for the nature of "ganking".


You still have risks. You could still mess up the gank. You only know the results when it's all over. Before that there is risk of it failing because all the possible outcome are not in your favor.



That's not the point. We are talking about the act of suicide ganking being a risk. It isn't. The risk is whether you kill the target or not. Whether you fail to gank, or succeed, your ship is lost for simply in trying.

It doesn't matter whether that target had 300 plex or gets away, your ship blows up no matter what. So it's a cost, and not risk.

The risk, comes from success, not the result of your ship. That's a cost. Atleast, CCP has kept changing Concord to make sure it has been (as proven by other people by making changes).


It has a risk because the end result is not known. You might have a garantee of losing your ship but unless you can prove that all ganks always turns in favor of the gankers (they do not) then there are risk in ganking since it can fail.
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#325 - 2013-08-21 20:54:27 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:


I can think of quite a few reasons that is not true, as I'm sure you could if I were to say those words to you sir.


No, It's a very easy to see fact. Outside of burn jita ganking is done for profit.



There is no profit in ganking scouts in noobships, although that can be argued, the prime reason for killing one is not for profit.

Or atleast, a LOT of noobships killed are never looted that I see when roaming across null. They are popped because they are alts, or because they do not belong in the same space I occupy, regardless if their hold is empty or full.

Now, YOU might only gank for profit, but meh, profit is definitely A reason to gank, but not the only reason.


You still face the risk of your target being more tanked than you imagined for example. What if he has links/implants? What if a friendly logi arrive before you finish dps'ing him down? Those are all risk you face when ganking even if you don't do it for profit.



None of that has any bearing whats so ever as to whether your ship gets blown up by Concord or not.

If Concord only killed you if you win, then it would be a risk. They kill you for trying. So its a cost.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#326 - 2013-08-21 20:55:55 UTC
MeestaPenni wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
You only know the results when it's all over.


Oh no....you know at least one result before F1 is ever pressed. And it is a certainty.


You only know parts of the results. Your ship will go boom. Will the other ship go boom? Will the enemy warp away before you finish him off? Will he fight back? Will he get reps from an incoming Logi? Will the loot fairy say yes? You don't know these until all is done and since part of it include your success or failure (did your target die), then there is risk since you can't confirm he will die unless you take the risk of shooting it.
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#327 - 2013-08-21 20:56:14 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:


It has a risk because the end result is not known. You might have a garantee of losing your ship but unless you can prove that all ganks always turns in favor of the gankers (they do not) then there are risk in ganking since it can fail.


You keep repeating the same thing over and over while not addressing the point.

Success and failure in regards to being a profitable suicide ganker has risks.

The act of suicide ganking does not. Pass or fail, you die. That ship death is the certainty. Profit has nothing to do with whether you die or not.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#328 - 2013-08-21 20:58:02 UTC
Murk Paradox wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:


I can think of quite a few reasons that is not true, as I'm sure you could if I were to say those words to you sir.


No, It's a very easy to see fact. Outside of burn jita ganking is done for profit.



There is no profit in ganking scouts in noobships, although that can be argued, the prime reason for killing one is not for profit.

Or atleast, a LOT of noobships killed are never looted that I see when roaming across null. They are popped because they are alts, or because they do not belong in the same space I occupy, regardless if their hold is empty or full.

Now, YOU might only gank for profit, but meh, profit is definitely A reason to gank, but not the only reason.


You still face the risk of your target being more tanked than you imagined for example. What if he has links/implants? What if a friendly logi arrive before you finish dps'ing him down? Those are all risk you face when ganking even if you don't do it for profit.



None of that has any bearing whats so ever as to whether your ship gets blown up by Concord or not.

If Concord only killed you if you win, then it would be a risk. They kill you for trying. So its a cost.


You can still lose that ship for **** all results. There is a risk of that happening. That is a risk in ganking. Your time is also in the balance. It risk being wasted if you didn't actually kill your target.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#329 - 2013-08-21 20:59:29 UTC
Murk Paradox wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:


It has a risk because the end result is not known. You might have a garantee of losing your ship but unless you can prove that all ganks always turns in favor of the gankers (they do not) then there are risk in ganking since it can fail.


You keep repeating the same thing over and over while not addressing the point.

Success and failure in regards to being a profitable suicide ganker has risks.

The act of suicide ganking does not. Pass or fail, you die. That ship death is the certainty. Profit has nothing to do with whether you die or not.


A suicide gank is only a success if you actaully kill your target. There are chance for that to happen so your gank has risk.
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#330 - 2013-08-21 21:00:19 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
MeestaPenni wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
You only know the results when it's all over.


Oh no....you know at least one result before F1 is ever pressed. And it is a certainty.


You only know parts of the results. Your ship will go boom. Will the other ship go boom? Will the enemy warp away before you finish him off? Will he fight back? Will he get reps from an incoming Logi? Will the loot fairy say yes? You don't know these until all is done and since part of it include your success or failure (did your target die), then there is risk since you can't confirm he will die unless you take the risk of shooting it.



Who cares? You lost your ship. That is where the cost is cost and not risk. The rest is immaterial since it does not change the absolute.

I'll put it in a different way....

If you do not get a ticket for speeding even though you were driving 55 mph in a 25mph school zone, it doesn't change the fact you were speeding.

You run the risk of an accident, a ticket, etc... but you do not change the fact that you were indeed choosing to go faster than you should have. That fuel lost in going faster is the cost, and is the equivalent of a gank ship intentionally getting lost by suicide gank. You KNOW it's going to get lost. You don't know whether you will get more profit than loss.

We are talking about the loss of the ship. That exists no matter what.

The rest is a fart in the wind and not a constant.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#331 - 2013-08-21 21:00:53 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:


It has a risk because the end result is not known. You might have a garantee of losing your ship but unless you can prove that all ganks always turns in favor of the gankers (they do not) then there are risk in ganking since it can fail.


You keep repeating the same thing over and over while not addressing the point.

Success and failure in regards to being a profitable suicide ganker has risks.

The act of suicide ganking does not. Pass or fail, you die. That ship death is the certainty. Profit has nothing to do with whether you die or not.


A suicide gank is only a success if you actaully kill your target. There are chance for that to happen so your gank has risk.



Again, you lose your ship no matter what. It's a cost.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#332 - 2013-08-21 21:02:19 UTC
Murk Paradox wrote:




Ok look, that was an obvious troll but still proves the point. Suicide ganking is most usually done for profit, but the only way to assign it as being risky, is if you don't consider doing it at all.



No its risky because there is risk. You can mess up the gank, the target could have stabs, they could have a better than expected tank, they might have logi or ECM, the loot fairy might say no, your salvage ship might get attacked when you scoop the loot and you might get ganked trying to get the goods back to station.

Suicide ganking is infact rather more risky than most activities in high sec.

Murk Paradox wrote:
If you buy a ship for the sole purpose of knowing it's going to get blown up at a chance for profit (profit has risk!) then it leaves the realm of risk and enters the realm of cost.


Oh so all of the risk magically goes away because you are willing to lose a ship?
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#333 - 2013-08-21 21:02:37 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:


You can still lose that ship for **** all results. There is a risk of that happening. That is a risk in ganking. Your time is also in the balance. It risk being wasted if you didn't actually kill your target.



My point is that there is not a risk of not happening. You shoot a target that's still on grid, you die.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#334 - 2013-08-21 21:04:20 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:




Ok look, that was an obvious troll but still proves the point. Suicide ganking is most usually done for profit, but the only way to assign it as being risky, is if you don't consider doing it at all.



No its risky because there is risk. You can mess up the gank, the target could have stabs, they could have a better than expected tank, they might have logi or ECM, the loot fairy might say no, your salvage ship might get attacked when you scoop the loot and you might get ganked trying to get the goods back to station.

Suicide ganking is infact rather more risky than most activities in high sec.

Murk Paradox wrote:
If you buy a ship for the sole purpose of knowing it's going to get blown up at a chance for profit (profit has risk!) then it leaves the realm of risk and enters the realm of cost.


Oh so all of the risk magically goes away because you are willing to lose a ship?




Yes. It becomes a cost. an integer. A constant.

Are you trying to imply that if you win your ship doesn't get blown up?

Let me ask you something baltec, and I'll be honest and sincere here....

If you, while solo, take a catalyst, and shoot some unknown person out of the blue, is there a way for you to kill him while not losing your ship? [BY YOURSELF!]

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#335 - 2013-08-21 21:08:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Murk Paradox
It's a simple rule of +/-. If there is a chance to NOT lose it, it is a risk. If there is no chance of NOT losing it, it is a cost.

I mean I can do analogies all day long...

Go to the fair. Spend $3 to enter that fair. Your 3 bucks are gone. It's a cost, you won't see those $3 again. You might get more money down the road, but your entry fee is paid and done. You know this, you know you did not risk it, you spent it intentionally.

Now, you might have risked not having fun or not winning that bright blue panda by going to the fair at all... but that $3 spent on entry?

It's gone. No matter how ****** or fun of a time you had.

EDIT-

I mean, you can RISK going to the fair with no money at all and hope that you can get in for free, but good luck with that.

In the end, it is going to cost you your ship to even attempt to suicide gank. No matter what.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#336 - 2013-08-21 21:14:59 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
Murk Paradox wrote:


Yes. It becomes a cost. an integer. A constant.



So how do ganks fail if there is no risk then?


Murk Paradox wrote:

Are you trying to imply that if you win your ship doesn't get blown up?


No because that's stupid.

Murk Paradox wrote:
Let me ask you something baltec, and I'll be honest and sincere here....

If you, while solo, take a catalyst, and shoot some unknown person out of the blue, is there a way for you to kill him while not losing your ship? [BY YOURSELF!]


Get a suspect timer on him or a killright or a wardec or trick them into low/null.

Although I have no idea what your trying to prove with this because it has nothing to do with the list of risks associated with suicide ganking. Those risks don't go away no matter what ship you are willing to sacrifice to concord.
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#337 - 2013-08-21 21:17:08 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:


Yes. It becomes a cost. an integer. A constant.



So who do ganks fail if there is no risk then?


Murk Paradox wrote:

Are you trying to imply that if you win your ship doesn't get blown up?


No because that's stupid.

Murk Paradox wrote:
Let me ask you something baltec, and I'll be honest and sincere here....

If you, while solo, take a catalyst, and shoot some unknown person out of the blue, is there a way for you to kill him while not losing your ship? [BY YOURSELF!]


Get a suspect timer on him or a killright or a wardec or trick them into low/null.

Although I have no idea what your trying to prove with this because it has nothing to do with the list of risks associated with suicide ganking. Those risks don't go away no matter what ship you are willing to sacrifice to concord.



So, you can only supercede not losing your ship by using an entirely different mechanic. I rest my case. Because can flipping is not suicide ganking is it?

Quote:
willing to sacrifice to concord


THAT is why it's a cost!

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#338 - 2013-08-21 21:23:03 UTC
Murk Paradox wrote:



So, you can only supercede not losing your ship by using an entirely different mechanic. I rest my case. Because can flipping is not suicide ganking is it?


So why are you bringing it up?

Murk Paradox wrote:

THAT is why it's a cost!


The risks I listed are still risks.
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#339 - 2013-08-21 21:30:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Murk Paradox
baltec1 wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:



So, you can only supercede not losing your ship by using an entirely different mechanic. I rest my case. Because can flipping is not suicide ganking is it?


So why are you bringing it up?

Murk Paradox wrote:

THAT is why it's a cost!


The risks I listed are still risks.



To prove a constant. It isn't a risk if you do not consider it anything more than a cost. If you think it's a risk of NOT losing your ship, you are not doing it right.

The risks you listed have nothing to do with the cost of the ship since you know it's going to get blown up no matter what. Anything else is supposition.

So tell me, is there a chance you might not get your ship blown up? No, you already answered that. So it isn't a risk, because risk is defined by chance. Certainty denotes "chance" and risk is based on uncertainties.

There is nothing uncertain about Concord which you yourself well know.

I brought up the fact that you mentioned canflipping and wardec and yet you used the argument you can't suicide gank in nullsec. You also cannot can flip and wardecs are deemed unnecessary in null. Tit for tat there sir. Eat what you feed and all that ****.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Rekon X
Doomheim
#340 - 2013-08-21 21:31:07 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:

A suicide gank is only a success if you actaully kill your target. There are chance for that to happen so your gank has risk.


Sorry you feel the need to validate yourself to others as being skilled. You'd never convince me of it, and looks like many more see it as nothing more than mindless and void of any skill.

NPC alt scans the ship down.

Goon plugs the fit into EFT to calculate defense, and how many T1 Meta 0 Catalysts it will take to pop it.

Said NPC alt sits cloaked for warpin to target and make sure no one else is around to attack them.

Goons warp in, destroy the target and run back to their station and hide before anyone else comes along.

I can see a great amount of skill in this procedure. That is if you have none.

Definition of goon - a stupid person Those who can do, those who can't spew