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[Odyssey 1.1] Command Ships

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Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1401 - 2013-08-14 17:51:40 UTC
Valterra Craven wrote:
Mournful Conciousness wrote:


I hear you but in this example, the astarte is doing something the eagle is not - it's giving armour boosts to everyone in your (PVE) fleet.

It seems reasonable to me that this would require some sacrifice elsewhere, no?



And I understand what your saying, but the astarte in this design was meant to do both (given the role bonus) etc. My point was I dont understand why CCP would not make a ship with an intended function without giving the ship the need resources to do that function?


Well, I imagine that the CCP devs are as surprised as I am that you would consider using a command ship for pure PVE. I am certain that they didn't even consider that to be any part of its role.

If you have found a new extra niche for it, then I salute you. However I would not hold your breath for this ship to be made better at PVE. Big smile

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Suzuma
Makiriemi Industries
#1402 - 2013-08-14 18:00:43 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Keep up the test server testing guys, thanks for the feedback so far. We'll be keeping an eye on things like the Astarte and Eos on the test server but my feeling at this point is that the balance between them is pretty good. The blaster Astarte will do more damage at 500m, but the Eos is less vulnerable to TDs, ECM, Neuts, can hit smaller targets more effectively and can choose damage types.


The Astarte can bring Valkyrie drones and do 3 types of damage. If you think anyone is going to bring Amarr drones on an Eos, you are very much mistaken.

Please post an Eos fit showing how you came to the conclusion that the hybrid tracking bonus is needed on a drone ship. I am sure the entire playerbase is aware what 3 utility highs and bonused drones do to "small targets".

CEO

Makiriemi Industries
Valterra Craven
#1403 - 2013-08-14 18:06:00 UTC
Mournful Conciousness wrote:


Well, I imagine that the CCP devs are as surprised as I am that you would consider using a command ship for pure PVE. I am certain that they didn't even consider that to be any part of its role.

If you have found a new extra niche for it, then I salute you. However I would not hold your breath for this ship to be made better at PVE. Big smile


Why would you not consider it? Cheaper than a t3 and about as effective....

Again my point was, they want that ship to be a damage and boosting ship. Given its role that likely means 4 slot tank, 5 weapons, and 2 links. It can't do that due to lack of CPU. I'm not asking them to be balance around PVE or PVP, just around the roles they are intended to fill.

Think about it, besides EHP and ship bonuses, the astarte and eagle are surprisingly similar. The astarte takes shedload of extra skils to fly in its role and is slightly more expensive than an eagle. It should be able to fit the above with max fitting skills without needing fitting mods or implants.
Ersahi Kir
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1404 - 2013-08-14 18:06:30 UTC
I honestly think my eos is going to be degraded to 'guristas ratting' duty. If it can't do that reasonably then it will be replaced with an ishtar.

Hurray for turret tracking bonus. Roll
PinkKnife
The Cuddlefish
Ethereal Dawn
#1405 - 2013-08-14 18:09:47 UTC  |  Edited by: PinkKnife
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Keep up the test server testing guys, thanks for the feedback so far. We'll be keeping an eye on things like the Astarte and Eos on the test server but my feeling at this point is that the balance between them is pretty good. The blaster Astarte will do more damage at 500m, but the Eos is less vulnerable to TDs, ECM, Neuts, can hit smaller targets more effectively and can choose damage types.


So, why then would anyone ever fly the Eos when the Astarte does more damage at it's intended role? Again, why are we bringing back split weapon bonuses? It does nothing but gimp the Eos into some nonsensical role where a short range blaster boat will always win. There's no reason to fly an Eos over the Astarte in this role. The Drone bonuses are nice, your explanation is full of theory crap.

You can't choose damage types unless you plan ahead and bring multiple sets of drones, something not easily done on a small'ish drone bay. (two sets of sentries max) Or, if as you pointed out, its for smaller drones, fine, but then why stick it with a medium hybrid tracking bonus when small targets are inevitably going to be faster, harder to catch and harder to shoot at with medium turrets over drones? It's not even a damage bonus, its to tracking, so what, you can catch all those pesky frigates that go to tackle drone ships, with your guns? How the **** does that make any sense? Remind me again how you change damage types on Hybrids? Oh wait, again thats the other half bonused system that makes the ship worthless in most roles and only kinda okay in one.

So the point of this is because Eos pilots surely go around solo'ing frigates and cruisers and never fly as commandships in actual fleets that have, you know, support ships or other frigates and cruisers?

The point I'm making is that you're splitting the benefits for no reason. We saw the last few years that split bonuses suck, and CCP has moved to remove them, so why are they still kept here? Don't gimp this ship for no reason, and give it a third drone bonus (**** give it drone range again, I don't care).

Yes the Eos is less vulnerable to some Ewar, but why make it vulnerable at all? Why kick it in the gut just because? Are you worried that it might somehow be overpowered? Then as I said, give it a fake bonus (like the cap use on the Absolution) that doesn't really do that much.

It just reeks of half-assery. You're better than that Fozzie, surely you can come up with some way, ANYWAY to avoid split damage bonuses that we've all known, and CCP has said and admitted to, are crap.
Jerick Ludhowe
Internet Tuff Guys
#1406 - 2013-08-14 18:10:58 UTC
Ersahi Kir wrote:
I honestly think my eos is going to be degraded to 'guristas ratting' duty. If it can't do that reasonably then it will be replaced with an ishtar.

Hurray for turret tracking bonus. Roll


Meh, just get a 250mm railgun Astarte with 2-3 dmg mods and fight serpentis.
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#1407 - 2013-08-14 18:11:24 UTC
Harvey James wrote:
Quote:
Well it has double the damage bonus of the Eagle, but otherwise their bonuses are the same yes.

Rather than add more +50% Hp bonuses to the command ships we're starting down the path that will allow us to remove that bonus from the Damnation and get them all into better balance.


btw could you convince Rise to give that double damage bonus to the eagle along with some decent speed and drones please? :)


not going to happen rise is from the future and has seen the only fleet docterine after 1.1 is ab shield eagles... they replaced the drake as the new fleet ship. /sarcasm

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#1408 - 2013-08-14 18:12:53 UTC
Oddsodz wrote:
Oh maybe it would be nice to have a remote ECCM module bonus instead of the repping bonus on the EoS. That way I can help my Logi from jamming.


i am still hopping for a tech II logi frig with that bonus.

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1409 - 2013-08-14 18:13:37 UTC
Valterra Craven wrote:
Mournful Conciousness wrote:


Well, I imagine that the CCP devs are as surprised as I am that you would consider using a command ship for pure PVE. I am certain that they didn't even consider that to be any part of its role.

If you have found a new extra niche for it, then I salute you. However I would not hold your breath for this ship to be made better at PVE. Big smile


Why would you not consider it? Cheaper than a t3 and about as effective....

Again my point was, they want that ship to be a damage and boosting ship. Given its role that likely means 4 slot tank, 5 weapons, and 2 links. It can't do that due to lack of CPU. I'm not asking them to be balance around PVE or PVP, just around the roles they are intended to fill.

Think about it, besides EHP and ship bonuses, the astarte and eagle are surprisingly similar. The astarte takes shedload of extra skils to fly in its role and is slightly more expensive than an eagle. It should be able to fit the above with max fitting skills without needing fitting mods or implants.


Well to be honest, the only time I used a T3 for PVE was a lolfit 5Bn isk proteus for solo c3 ratting. I did that just because the battleclinic community thought it was impossible.

Otherwise, I've only ever used T1 ships for making money and T1/2/3 ships for blowing stuff up.

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
Frothgar
Take The Bait.
Pandemic Horde
#1410 - 2013-08-14 18:14:53 UTC
Valterra Craven wrote:
Frothgar wrote:


So... you're trying to do some things with these setups that don't really make much sense.

I'm assuming they're going to be PvE fits since you have no points, and you're incredibly slow.

First for the Astarte, you could make it a fine PvE boat. in your case you're really crazy overtanked, but you have no cap coming in to it. You have 6 slots dedicated to tanking, but you don't select a damage type. If you were say running lvl4s, drop the active hardeners, put in say a tracking enhancer, and ditch your tracking computers for cap recharge. You should be able to perma run everything.

For the eagle, you're using an undersized tank, cruisers easily fit "Large" shield boosters. That should put your fits more towards something functional.


Well I did mention my comments weren't related to PVP, so...

Speed is not really of a concern in PVE, the astarte is not a speed boat to begin with, so you aren't going to be sig tanking it like you would a frig etc. You don't need points since the targets don't run.

As to cap, anything past 2 minutes recharge I've found to be over kill (given the damage application and tank anyway) There is no need to perma run everything. The only benefit to perma running stuff is if you are too lazy to pulse your mods. In any case I have only 4 slots dedicated to tank, not 6. One rep and three hardners. My actuall mission 4 fit loses the Adapt nano and adds a third Mag Stab for more damage. The point here was to show similar fits on ships that use the same gun types. Its seems weird that a cruiser and a battle cruiser would have exactly the same CPU output given the role the BC is intended to fill.



The two links you added are tanking mods which add a substantial amount of tank to the setup. It really is an excessive amount of tank for anything.

Also comparing an armor ship to a shield one isn't really a fair comparison when you're looking at CPU. armor reps use a fraction of the CPU as a shield booster, but utilize more power grid. Shield based ships and missile boats usually have a substantial CPU difference over armor boats.

I'd suggest comparing it to the Deimos (Which is a teriffic ship) and you can really see the nuances in role differentiation.
Maximus Andendare
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#1411 - 2013-08-14 18:15:03 UTC
Dav Varan wrote:
Jerick Ludhowe wrote:
I think 5-5-6 with 325m3 drone bay would be the kicker. Like you said 5-5-7 (@ eldrith) would be just a bit "too" much. Just imagine a 7 slot tank tri rep eos with dual cap injectors and nos/nuets in the highs. Sure, dps will be questionable, but you're going to tank more than almost anything (barring caps) and also have Massive therm/kin resistance which is perfect considering the highest dps ships in the game do therm/kin.


No

The slot layout is fine.

Dual rep kicks out comparable reps to a shield tanked X-Large asb setup 112 versus 115 ( claymore ) per second.
and it has plenty of dps 700 most of which is projectable to at least the same extent as hams.
It's "nice" that it takes 3 module slots at a minimum (2x reppers and a cap booster) to equal a single XL-ASB's tanking potential. :balanced:

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MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#1412 - 2013-08-14 18:15:33 UTC
Dav Varan wrote:
Jerick Ludhowe wrote:

Give it 325m3 and I'll be "more" inclined to believe that they are well balanced.


+1


true the eos only has 16 slots... it looses a slot due to drone "utility" if the eos does not have a big drone bay then it looses said "utility" and should either gain an extra slot or its 375m3 drone bay.

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1413 - 2013-08-14 18:15:54 UTC
Jerick Ludhowe wrote:
Ersahi Kir wrote:
I honestly think my eos is going to be degraded to 'guristas ratting' duty. If it can't do that reasonably then it will be replaced with an ishtar.

Hurray for turret tracking bonus. Roll


Meh, just get a 250mm railgun Astarte with 2-3 dmg mods and fight serpentis.


A single rep c-type LAR domi with EANM, DC and RAH will tank all sanctums while doing something like 900dps, and this was before the armour repair buff. I can't imagine why I would embarrass the crew of a T2 ship with this kind of work... What?

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
Frothgar
Take The Bait.
Pandemic Horde
#1414 - 2013-08-14 18:22:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Frothgar
All things being said. I think the weakest two CS are the Absolution and the Astarte. Neither is going to be chasing down anything while plated, and the difficulties they would have applying damage with short range guns will be significant. The Astarte is still better than the Absolution because with rails it has some good options due to its falloff bonus and its Armor/Skirmish link options complement some degree of flexibility.

Both remind me of the old Deimos. Can't really run down much or escape when in trouble, poor tank, poor damage projection. Both get stuck in the situation of "You have to kill the enemy, or you're dead" In most PvP situations, that's a very bad place to be.

I have no problems with the Astarte having the falloff bonus of the Deimos because its frankly dead without it. I'm scratching my head as to why the Abso retains the cap use bonus when it has less turrets to feed and its precursor (Zealot) has an optimal range bonus.
Valterra Craven
#1415 - 2013-08-14 18:29:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Valterra Craven
Frothgar wrote:

The two links you added are tanking mods which add a substantial amount of tank to the setup. It really is an excessive amount of tank for anything.

Also comparing an armor ship to a shield one isn't really a fair comparison when you're looking at CPU. armor reps use a fraction of the CPU as a shield booster, but utilize more power grid. Shield based ships and missile boats usually have a substantial CPU difference over armor boats.

I'd suggest comparing it to the Deimos (Which is a teriffic ship) and you can really see the nuances in role differentiation.


Ok fine, change the links to skirmish ones instead of armoured ones. They use the same amount of CPU as those do, and my point still stands. But since you want to compare like tanking ships the vulture and the eagle might be more fitting.

Vulture
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Power Diagnostic System II
Power Diagnostic System II

10MN Afterburner II
Large Shield Booster II
Shield Boost Amplifier II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Tracking Computer II, Tracking Speed Script

250mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge M
250mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge M
250mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge M
250mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge M
250mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge M
Skirmish Warfare Link - Evasive Maneuvers II
Skirmish Warfare Link - Interdiction Maneuvers II

This has exactly enough CPU 675 of 681.

Eagle
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Power Diagnostic System II
Power Diagnostic System II

10MN Afterburner II
Medium Shield Booster II
Shield Boost Amplifier II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II

250mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge M
250mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge M
250mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge M
250mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge M
250mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge M


So the vulture can fit 5 guns, full tank, and 2 links... As I said the Astarte is lacking some CPU for its intended role.

Interestingly enough it also does less DPS than the eagle... lol
Jerick Ludhowe
Internet Tuff Guys
#1416 - 2013-08-14 18:30:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Jerick Ludhowe
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Jerick Ludhowe wrote:
Ersahi Kir wrote:
I honestly think my eos is going to be degraded to 'guristas ratting' duty. If it can't do that reasonably then it will be replaced with an ishtar.

Hurray for turret tracking bonus. Roll


Meh, just get a 250mm railgun Astarte with 2-3 dmg mods and fight serpentis.


A single rep c-type LAR domi with EANM, DC and RAH will tank all sanctums while doing something like 900dps, and this was before the armour repair buff. I can't imagine why I would embarrass the crew of a T2 ship with this kind of work... What?


I'd imagine it could probably tank more dps than the domi (against serpentis/gurista) due to rep bonus combined with uber therm/kin and a smaller sig/higher speed.

In all honesty tho, you're probably right.
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1417 - 2013-08-14 18:32:51 UTC
Valterra Craven wrote:

So the vulture can fit 5 guns, full tank, and 2 links... As I said the Astarte is lacking some CPU for its intended role.


Not quite. You won't see a vulture in PVP with a single large shield booster.

It'll have buffer and there will be logistics supporting it. (2000dps tank per supporting basilisk). These ships are not designed for PVE perma-tanking. That tactic simply doesn't work in PVP.

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
Alsyth
#1418 - 2013-08-14 18:33:10 UTC
General:

1. Capacitor is sad compared to HAC.

2. You nerfed the shield ones so they cannot fit dual XLASB without 10 fitting mods (and have problems even to fit a single XLASB).
But all the armor ones can triple rep or even 1600+dual rep really easily, without even requiring fitting mods for some of them (and still getting 700dps except for the Damnation).

3. Damnation and Vulture still lack dps. No damage role for them.
-Vulture with another 10% damage will look like a good ship, like a shield astarte or bigger Moa.
-same for Damnation without HP bonus and with another 10% damage (to drones? so it feels Khanid like the Curse, and improve dronebay).

4. Damnation still the only one with enough HP to make it in bigger fleets. Absolution close second, all the others have much less EHP and much worse resists.

5. Current uselessness of HML really doesn't help the missile CS. Which all lack dps even with HAM compared to the others (Eos/Astarte/Abso/Sleipnir).

6. No intention of fixing the Nighthawk and its broken slot layout? Have you ever seen someone happy with this ship in pvp?

7. active bonus still a joke, you can get absolution to do a similar active tank than astarte... And end up with +30% EHP. Putting resistance bonus to all of them really is the best thing you could do... I don't know of many pilots who wouldn't LOVE to trade this active bonus to a resistance bonus.
Valterra Craven
#1419 - 2013-08-14 18:34:32 UTC
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Valterra Craven wrote:

So the vulture can fit 5 guns, full tank, and 2 links... As I said the Astarte is lacking some CPU for its intended role.


Not quite. You won't see a vulture in PVP with a single large shield booster.

It'll have buffer and there will be logistics supporting it. (2000dps tank per supporting basilisk). These ships are not designed for PVE perma-tanking. That tactic simply doesn't work in PVP.


Good thing I wasn't talking about PVP....
Ersahi Kir
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1420 - 2013-08-14 18:35:04 UTC
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Jerick Ludhowe wrote:
Ersahi Kir wrote:
I honestly think my eos is going to be degraded to 'guristas ratting' duty. If it can't do that reasonably then it will be replaced with an ishtar.

Hurray for turret tracking bonus. Roll


Meh, just get a 250mm railgun Astarte with 2-3 dmg mods and fight serpentis.


A single rep c-type LAR domi with EANM, DC and RAH will tank all sanctums while doing something like 900dps, and this was before the armour repair buff. I can't imagine why I would embarrass the crew of a T2 ship with this kind of work... What?


Because the myrm hull looks boss. And I have command ships to 5 while I have never injected the galente battleship skill, but that could be fixed.