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Poetic Justice for Gold Farming

Author
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#21 - 2013-08-13 20:00:58 UTC
Remiel Pollard wrote:
I laugh at this woman's loss. Why? Because it's people like this that ruin games like EVE Online that are not supposed to be pay-to-win by making it pay-to-win. Because the EVE Online EULA expressly forbids selling in-game items for real world money, and I hope whatever account(s) she's using in game to make the item transfers was one of the accounts in the recent wave of permabans.

I hope she loses the case, I applaud the thieves for delivering such poetic (however illegal) justice, I applaud AAMI for denying her claim, and I hope she cries a lot over it.



There is nothing funny about the loss of anyone for any reason. She was very thorough and within the confines of the law on how she made a living and invested. Even as far as notating everything and reporting the items with receipts, to the insurance company.

The lawyers are trying to use the source of income as a way to criminalize the loss, which is unrelated.

Funnily enough, the country's law on the matter justifies the job.

You should laugh at phone sex operators who get raped too.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.

Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#22 - 2013-08-13 20:03:40 UTC
Murk Paradox wrote:
Remiel Pollard wrote:
I laugh at this woman's loss. Why? Because it's people like this that ruin games like EVE Online that are not supposed to be pay-to-win by making it pay-to-win. Because the EVE Online EULA expressly forbids selling in-game items for real world money, and I hope whatever account(s) she's using in game to make the item transfers was one of the accounts in the recent wave of permabans.

I hope she loses the case, I applaud the thieves for delivering such poetic (however illegal) justice, I applaud AAMI for denying her claim, and I hope she cries a lot over it.



There is nothing funny about the loss of anyone for any reason. She was very thorough and within the confines of the law on how she made a living and invested. Even as far as notating everything and reporting the items with receipts, to the insurance company.

The lawyers are trying to use the source of income as a way to criminalize the loss, which is unrelated.

Funnily enough, the country's law on the matter justifies the job.

You should laugh at phone sex operators who get raped too.

So intentionally breaching a contract then fraudulently claiming theft is OK with you? As that's what this is saying is happening. Then to top it off, she can't prove anything because "all of my email accounts have been hacked, I swear!"

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

Heywood Djiblomi
Doomheim
#23 - 2013-08-13 20:04:11 UTC
Remiel Pollard wrote:
...most trustworthy banks and insurance companies in the world.


Trustworthy banks and insurance companies? That... is comedy gold.
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#24 - 2013-08-13 20:04:24 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
S Byerley wrote:
Remiel Pollard wrote:
But, that's what the trial is for, and I may have just tipped off a legal contact of mine at AAMI, anonymously of course, regarding the matter of a legally binding contract with CCP, ie the EULA, that forbids this action in the first place. As a journalist, I have a few friends in low places that might mean your contribution, Mr Kell, may not go completely unheard.


**** journalists for perpetuating this EULA nonsense.

I'm obviously no lawyer, but I know damn well that unless Australia rules the activity illegal (rather than just in breach of contract - and it seems like they'd rather just tax it normally) it has no bearing on a separate insurance claim.


Bull. It was already mentioned that it was income earned through breach of a EULA, which is a legal contract. Earnings made expressly through breach of a legal contract are forfeit at best, felony fraud at worst, in just about every western nation. (which is why most RMT is through China)



Strangely enough, the game's dev/GM staff is not a part of those aforementioned legal preceedings.

The EULA is a witchunt at best, as it is between an insurance company and it's client.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.

Heywood Djiblomi
Doomheim
#25 - 2013-08-13 20:05:33 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
...fraudulently claiming theft is OK with you?


Evidence?
Heywood Djiblomi
Doomheim
#26 - 2013-08-13 20:09:11 UTC
Remiel Pollard wrote:
As a journalist, I have a few friends in low places...


That sounds very familiar... like carebears who rage after being ganked and claim to have powerful friends in nullsec.
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#27 - 2013-08-13 20:18:37 UTC
Heywood Djiblomi wrote:
Remiel Pollard wrote:
...most trustworthy banks and insurance companies in the world.


Trustworthy banks and insurance companies? That... is comedy gold.


Quote mining is fun and all, but that statement should begin with "Some of..." as in "some of the most trusted...." etc.

You might find it amusing, but it's a statistically supported fact. Australia's Commonwealth Bank and NAB tie for the 12th safest banks in the entire world..

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104

Heywood Djiblomi
Doomheim
#28 - 2013-08-13 20:21:22 UTC
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Heywood Djiblomi wrote:
[quote=Remiel Pollard]...most trustworthy banks and insurance companies in the world.

You might find it amusing, but it's a statistically supported fact. Australia's Commonwealth Bank and NAB tie for the 12th safest banks in the entire world..


I believe you misinterpreted my message, so let me bring some clarity:

Trustworthy banks and insurance companies are like unicorns - they do not exist.
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#29 - 2013-08-13 20:22:14 UTC
Heywood Djiblomi wrote:
Remiel Pollard wrote:
As a journalist, I have a few friends in low places...


That sounds very familiar... like carebears who rage after being ganked and claim to have powerful friends in nullsec.


I was only indicating that I've passed on the information. What it sounds like to you is irrelevant. Additionally, the difference is, carebears make such statements in order to save face and attempt to intimidate their aggressors. In other words, they do it as a threat. I'm not making a threat, I was addressing the fact that I have contacts, and have already used them. But because you'll probably never be aware of the result, and probably don't really care to begin with, you can brush it off as nothing and use it to get your rocks off by trolling me.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104

Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#30 - 2013-08-13 20:22:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Murk Paradox
Lucas Kell wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:
Remiel Pollard wrote:
I laugh at this woman's loss. Why? Because it's people like this that ruin games like EVE Online that are not supposed to be pay-to-win by making it pay-to-win. Because the EVE Online EULA expressly forbids selling in-game items for real world money, and I hope whatever account(s) she's using in game to make the item transfers was one of the accounts in the recent wave of permabans.

I hope she loses the case, I applaud the thieves for delivering such poetic (however illegal) justice, I applaud AAMI for denying her claim, and I hope she cries a lot over it.



There is nothing funny about the loss of anyone for any reason. She was very thorough and within the confines of the law on how she made a living and invested. Even as far as notating everything and reporting the items with receipts, to the insurance company.

The lawyers are trying to use the source of income as a way to criminalize the loss, which is unrelated.

Funnily enough, the country's law on the matter justifies the job.

You should laugh at phone sex operators who get raped too.

So intentionally breaching a contract then fraudulently claiming theft is OK with you? As that's what this is saying is happening. Then to top it off, she can't prove anything because "all of my email accounts have been hacked, I swear!"



You do not know that she fraudulently claimed theft. The case is not over as far as I've read . I*n fact, I'll quote it!

"In 2006, the Australian Taxation Office recognised gold farming as a taxable income source.

AAMI has counter-sued, accusing Ms Fincham of staging the theft in order to fraudulently claim on her policy."

So I guess it's up to the lawyer's to do god's work eh?

But laughing at theft and loss of livelihood is bad.

If she is guilty, it still doesn't serve her right, as she will be sentenced or otherwise punished. If she is not guilty, it still isn't funny.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.

Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#31 - 2013-08-13 20:23:36 UTC
Heywood Djiblomi wrote:
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Heywood Djiblomi wrote:
[quote=Remiel Pollard]...most trustworthy banks and insurance companies in the world.

You might find it amusing, but it's a statistically supported fact. Australia's Commonwealth Bank and NAB tie for the 12th safest banks in the entire world..


I believe you misinterpreted my message, so let me bring some clarity:

Trustworthy banks and insurance companies are like unicorns - they do not exist.


I never said they were trustworthy. I said they were the some of the MOST trustworthy. In other words, they are the least untrusted. In context, it's like saying a Ford Focus RS is the fastest hatchback on the road. That's not the same thing as the fastest CAR on the road.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104

Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#32 - 2013-08-13 20:25:54 UTC
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Heywood Djiblomi wrote:
Remiel Pollard wrote:
As a journalist, I have a few friends in low places...


That sounds very familiar... like carebears who rage after being ganked and claim to have powerful friends in nullsec.


I was only indicating that I've passed on the information. What it sounds like to you is irrelevant. Additionally, the difference is, carebears make such statements in order to save face and attempt to intimidate their aggressors. In other words, they do it as a threat. I'm not making a threat, I was addressing the fact that I have contacts, and have already used them. But because you'll probably never be aware of the result, and probably don't really care to begin with, you can brush it off as nothing and use it to get your rocks off by trolling me.



That's true, you did say that. You also said "But, that's what the trial is for, and I may have just tipped off a legal contact of mine at AAMI, anonymously of course, regarding the matter of a legally binding contract with CCP, ie the EULA, that forbids this action in the first place." and that makes me curious...

Did you, and do you have a legal contact in the AAMI? If so, are you losing your objectivity as either a player, a journalist, or both?

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.

Malcolm Shinhwa
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#33 - 2013-08-13 20:26:45 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Malcolm Shinhwa wrote:
I generally don't turn to internet forums for legal advise, but its my birthday so I'm going to treat myself. In what country and under what law would violating a EULA, by itself, be a criminal act resulting in state forfeiture of assets and felony charges?

Anyone breaching a contract would be liable to pay damages to the party on the other side of the contract. While not directly a criminal matter, intentionally breaching a contract to earn money would not leave you in a healthy legal situation as it could be seen as illegal earnings. Any money you do earn from it would belong to the company owning the game anyway, as they own the "property" you are selling unless they state otherwise. In the case of EVE, seeing as you can buy plex and GTCs legally, and convert them to cash, the breach of contract would be direct loss of earnings for CCP so you'd be liable for that too.


None of that sounds like a criminal matter, but a civil one with any legal proceedings to be brought by CCP against the individuals involved. Still doesn't seem like the stuff of state forfeiture and felony charges and an eventual trip to federal PMITA prison.

[i]"The purpose of fighting is to win. There is no possible victory in defense. The sword is more important than the shield and skill is more important than either. The final weapon is the brain. All else is supplemental[/i]."

Jax Zaden
Prometheus Deep Core Mining
#34 - 2013-08-13 20:28:43 UTC
Ultimately, the fact that she is/was a gold farmer should have nothing to do wtih the claim. She had a verifiable asset that she paid an insurance premium on. That's pretty much it. If they think that she staged the loss then that is the basis of the trial.

Gold farming, while a violation of a "contract" that you are agreeing to with a company, is not illegal by definition and the "contract" outlines the potential ramifications. While someone could say it's "fraud" that simply is not the case. If there were legal ramifications, there would be alot more hoops to jump through confirming that you were indeed the person agreeing to the "contract". Plus I would think that the offending company would have to file criminal charges to be able to use fraud as a claim disqualifer because she would have not been found guilt through due process.

TL/DR - she's a gold farmer and that is a violation of a company's rules not international law. The insurance company has no basis to deny her claim under the umbrella of "property aquired as a result of criminal activity". Ultimately, so purchased an insurance policy to cover an asset, paid the premium and filed a claim. The only thing that should be disputable is the validity of the claim.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#35 - 2013-08-13 20:39:28 UTC
Malcolm Shinhwa wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
Malcolm Shinhwa wrote:
I generally don't turn to internet forums for legal advise, but its my birthday so I'm going to treat myself. In what country and under what law would violating a EULA, by itself, be a criminal act resulting in state forfeiture of assets and felony charges?

Anyone breaching a contract would be liable to pay damages to the party on the other side of the contract. While not directly a criminal matter, intentionally breaching a contract to earn money would not leave you in a healthy legal situation as it could be seen as illegal earnings. Any money you do earn from it would belong to the company owning the game anyway, as they own the "property" you are selling unless they state otherwise. In the case of EVE, seeing as you can buy plex and GTCs legally, and convert them to cash, the breach of contract would be direct loss of earnings for CCP so you'd be liable for that too.


None of that sounds like a criminal matter, but a civil one with any legal proceedings to be brought by CCP against the individuals involved. Still doesn't seem like the stuff of state forfeiture and felony charges and an eventual trip to federal PMITA prison.

Who ever said it was a felony? Illegal earnings can still end you up in prison, at least it can in the UK. And earnings through intentional breach of contract are illegal earnings.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#36 - 2013-08-13 20:41:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Remiel Pollard
Murk Paradox wrote:
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Heywood Djiblomi wrote:
Remiel Pollard wrote:
As a journalist, I have a few friends in low places...


That sounds very familiar... like carebears who rage after being ganked and claim to have powerful friends in nullsec.


I was only indicating that I've passed on the information. What it sounds like to you is irrelevant. Additionally, the difference is, carebears make such statements in order to save face and attempt to intimidate their aggressors. In other words, they do it as a threat. I'm not making a threat, I was addressing the fact that I have contacts, and have already used them. But because you'll probably never be aware of the result, and probably don't really care to begin with, you can brush it off as nothing and use it to get your rocks off by trolling me.



That's true, you did say that. You also said "But, that's what the trial is for, and I may have just tipped off a legal contact of mine at AAMI, anonymously of course, regarding the matter of a legally binding contract with CCP, ie the EULA, that forbids this action in the first place." and that makes me curious...

Did you, and do you have a legal contact in the AAMI? If so, are you losing your objectivity as either a player, a journalist, or both?


I ran a story on a legal shitstorm that AAMI was involved in during the QLD floods a few years back when they refused to pay claims based on an 'act of god'. It was ridiculous, and they weren't the only company that tried to pull that ****. I made contacts with the legal departments of a number of those contacts. I am no friend to insurance companies, and having contacts there doesn't mean otherwise. I have contacts in most of Australia's political parties as well, but I can still only vote for one.

And no, passing on factual information that may or may not have a bearing on a case has no effect on my impartiality as a journalist. If I was to write about the case, I would state the facts of the case, and stick to the story. People have this misconception that a journalist isn't entitled to an opinion or the right to contribute ever otherwise they are bias. This is not the case. A journalist is not supposed to let bias get in the way of reporting or investigating a story that he or she is to share with the public, but that journalist's opinions on that story do exist. Anyone with a mind has an opinion.

Do I want to see this woman go down? Sure I do. I sent them information that may or may not help them win the case. Did I send them lies or make something up just because I want to see her go down? No, I did not.

Did I write a story about the woman being evil without delivering the facts of the case all full of my opinion? No, I didn't, I made a forum post instead. So my journalistic integrity remains intact. Just because one's profession is 'journalist' does not mean he is not entitled to his opinion, and to express his opinion, beyond his journalism. In fact, many journalists do write opinion pieces, which people often mistake as news and call them ****** journalists as a result. It's just stupid.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104

Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#37 - 2013-08-13 20:44:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Murk Paradox
I found it odd you used an opinion piece to flaunt your journalistic view and then defended it by having an opinion.

Like I said, it made me curious.

But did you tip off someone in the AAMI concerning this specific newspiece? That's what I was referring to. (as an open engaging question, not interrogation or anything).

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.

Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#38 - 2013-08-13 20:45:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Remiel Pollard
Malcolm Shinhwa wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
Malcolm Shinhwa wrote:
I generally don't turn to internet forums for legal advise, but its my birthday so I'm going to treat myself. In what country and under what law would violating a EULA, by itself, be a criminal act resulting in state forfeiture of assets and felony charges?

Anyone breaching a contract would be liable to pay damages to the party on the other side of the contract. While not directly a criminal matter, intentionally breaching a contract to earn money would not leave you in a healthy legal situation as it could be seen as illegal earnings. Any money you do earn from it would belong to the company owning the game anyway, as they own the "property" you are selling unless they state otherwise. In the case of EVE, seeing as you can buy plex and GTCs legally, and convert them to cash, the breach of contract would be direct loss of earnings for CCP so you'd be liable for that too.


None of that sounds like a criminal matter, but a civil one with any legal proceedings to be brought by CCP against the individuals involved. Still doesn't seem like the stuff of state forfeiture and felony charges and an eventual trip to federal PMITA prison.


It's not likely she'll be charged for fraud regarding the EVE EULA by the insurance company, but the insurance company can argue two things to win their case with the EULA. 1) if the insured property was acquired fraudulently, then they can deny her claim on that basis alone. 2) it shows the woman's tendency to ignore the rules and demonstrates her willingness to commit fraud, so they can argue it is a habit. Along with providing evidence that she has faked the robbery and claimed fraudulently, this material can strengthen their case.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104

Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#39 - 2013-08-13 20:49:02 UTC
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Malcolm Shinhwa wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
Malcolm Shinhwa wrote:
I generally don't turn to internet forums for legal advise, but its my birthday so I'm going to treat myself. In what country and under what law would violating a EULA, by itself, be a criminal act resulting in state forfeiture of assets and felony charges?

Anyone breaching a contract would be liable to pay damages to the party on the other side of the contract. While not directly a criminal matter, intentionally breaching a contract to earn money would not leave you in a healthy legal situation as it could be seen as illegal earnings. Any money you do earn from it would belong to the company owning the game anyway, as they own the "property" you are selling unless they state otherwise. In the case of EVE, seeing as you can buy plex and GTCs legally, and convert them to cash, the breach of contract would be direct loss of earnings for CCP so you'd be liable for that too.


None of that sounds like a criminal matter, but a civil one with any legal proceedings to be brought by CCP against the individuals involved. Still doesn't seem like the stuff of state forfeiture and felony charges and an eventual trip to federal PMITA prison.


It's not likely she'll be charged for fraud regarding the EVE EULA by the insurance company, but the insurance company can argue two things to win their case with the EULA. 1) if the insured property was acquired fraudulently, then they can deny her claim on that basis alone. 2) it shows the woman's tendency to ignore the rules and demonstrates her willingness to commit fraud, so they can argue it is a habit. Along with providing evidence that she has faked the robbery and claimed fraudulently, this material can strengthen their case.



What I don't get, is how the EULA is even brought in as there is no case (so far apparently) concerning any EULA breach independent of this case. So relevance has no bearing.

Hell, it mentioned eve online but never said anything about isk or RMT'ing Eve, only that she played it and likened the reference to swords and gold nuggets bleh.

That chief court reporter is terrible.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.

Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#40 - 2013-08-13 20:49:27 UTC
Murk Paradox wrote:
I found it odd you used an opinion piece to flaunt your journalistic view and then defended it by having an opinion.

Like I said, it made me curious.

But did you tip off someone in the AAMI concerning this specific newspiece? That's what I was referring to. (as an open engaging question, not interrogation or anything).


The original link in the OP is not an opinion piece, it is called 'news', the reporting of events that have taken place in the public interest with the facts of the matter at hand, and I didn't flaunt a journalistic view, I expressed a view as an interest party, ie an EVE player. I did present my opinion, yes, but the writer of the article I posted expressed no opinion of their own. I didn't defend anything 'by having an opinion'. That doesn't even make sense.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104