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Yet another 'need advice for new computer' thread

Author
Mizhir
Devara Biotech
#1 - 2013-08-10 15:49:09 UTC
Hey all

My old desktop is gettin really old and I think it is time to retire it. It was initially something I just bought cheap, so it's better to just replace it all.

I am not interested in a highend machine, but rather something resonable, but still able to run multiple monitors (2 monitors for gaming and a TV hanging above). It should run 2-3 eve clients without trouble and should be able to run fraps as well. Should also run SC2 and GW2 with good graphics and should be able to run future games without having to be on low settings.

Alpheias suggested a setup for me, and I want your opinion on it:

Gigabyte GA-H87M-D3H, Socket-1150
Intel Core i5-4430 Processor
EVGA GeForce GTX 660Ti 2GB PhysX CUDA
Kingston DDR3 HyperX Beast 8GB
Intel SSD 330 Setires 120GB 2.5", 25nm
Seagate Barracuda 2TB (Alpheias initially suggested a WD Desktop Black 2TB, but I doubt the huge increase in price is worth it)
Cooler Master Silent Pro M2 520W PSU
Fractal Design Define Mini

To me, it seems like a great setup with possibility to upgrade in the future. Yet I am not an expert so there might be things I have missed and there might be better alternatives.

-Miz

β€οΈοΈπŸ’›πŸ’šπŸ’™πŸ’œ

Kirjava
Lothian Enterprises
#2 - 2013-08-10 16:03:53 UTC
*Points the AkitaT sign into the Sky, the clouds calling her to the thread*

[center]Haruhiists - Overloading Out of Pod discussions since 2007. /δΊΊβ—•β€Ώβ€Ώβ—•δΊΊ\ Unban Saede![/center]

Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
#3 - 2013-08-10 16:14:28 UTC
Kirjava wrote:
*Points the AkitaT sign into the Sky, the clouds calling her to the thread*



AkitaT is your man, your woman, your everything.

Roses are red / Violets are blue / I am an Alpha / And so it's you

Tanthalassa
State War Academy
Caldari State
#4 - 2013-08-10 17:26:52 UTC
Oh yes, AkitaT to pc advice is like Chribba to Veldspar.
Will ask about budget.
Mizhir
Devara Biotech
#5 - 2013-08-10 18:01:12 UTC
Budget is about 7500dkk, which is roughly 1k euro.

β€οΈοΈπŸ’›πŸ’šπŸ’™πŸ’œ

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
#6 - 2013-08-11 14:00:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Akita T
The machine you listed is well above your requested EVE performance level, IMO.
But that can't hurt, especially since you want to use it for other stuff as well.

Not sure what the local retailers charge extra on top of the 25% Denmark VAT, but assuming it's under 7% over what you'd get from the USA (no VAT, list prices before sales tax and such), if you look at newegg prices, the total price of components for the setup should be listed roughly around 1000 USD for your stated budget of 7500 DKK.

i5-4430 -> ~190 USD
that adequate mobo -> ~100 USD
cheapest 2GB GTX 660Ti -> ~250 USD (or, reasonably factory overclocked, ~260 USD)
that RAM @1600 -> ~80 USD
that HDD -> ~100 USD
330 series no longer in stock there, but there's an Intel 335 Series 180GB-> ~165 USD
that exact PSU not in stock either, but a Corsair Builder Series 600W -> ~70 USD
a bit confused about the case, isn't that a microATX case ? and you have a standard ATX mobo...
anyway, the standard size case of the same line costs ~100 USD

Total -> ~1055+ USD
So, possibly slightly above budget, depending on retailer's cut and available components at whatever retailer you pick
Verdict : good enough, I guess.

...

I'd probably go for 16 GB of RAM though (add ~80 USD), maybe upscale the SSD to 240GB too (335 series, add ~55 USD), and get only a plain 1GB GTX 650 for now (subtract ~120 USD), but that would put you 15 USD higher than before.
Then get one of the better NVIDIA 800-series video cards late next year, a good while after they come out.
For now, even the 650 will do fine for a year or two... you won't need to run stuff on low (but you won't be running anything in highest either).

Alternatively, and probably better for you, you can downscale the SSD to the cheapest last-gen Intel you can find and use it as SSD cache only, not as main drive (subtract ~75 USD instead), and keep the 660 Ti, use the saved difference for the extra RAM mentioned before, while keeping the budget nearly the same.
Then, later on, get the larger SSD, whenever you have extra cash available. Use the new one as OS drive, and keep the small old one as SSD cache.

Even more alternatively, since nowadays most games are heavily GPU-bound (and fairly undemanding of the CPU), you could go with a cheaper CPU+MoBo combo from AMD and save quite a bit of cash right there.
It won't be pretty if//when you get in large-scale fleet combat in EVE, but, eh, not like the Intel will do *that* much better, so it's a definite "meh" on that front.
Depends on what else you want to do with the machine except gaming, I guess.

Your choices.
Alpheias
Tactical Farmers.
Pandemic Horde
#7 - 2013-08-11 15:29:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Alpheias
Akita T wrote:
The machine you listed is well above your requested EVE performance level, IMO.
But that can't hurt, especially since you want to use it for other stuff as well.

Not sure what the local retailers charge extra on top of the 25% Denmark VAT, but assuming it's under 7% over what you'd get from the USA (no VAT, list prices before sales tax and such), if you look at newegg prices, the total price of components for the setup should be listed roughly around 1000 USD for your stated budget of 7500 DKK.

i5-4430 -> ~190 USD
that adequate mobo -> ~100 USD
cheapest 2GB GTX 660Ti -> ~250 USD (or, reasonably factory overclocked, ~260 USD)
that RAM @1600 -> ~80 USD
that HDD -> ~100 USD
330 series no longer in stock there, but there's an Intel 335 Series 180GB-> ~165 USD
that exact PSU not in stock either, but a Corsair Builder Series 600W -> ~70 USD
a bit confused about the case, isn't that a microATX case ? and you have a standard ATX mobo...
anyway, the standard size case of the same line costs ~100 USD

Total -> ~1055+ USD
So, possibly slightly above budget, depending on retailer's cut and available components at whatever retailer you pick
Verdict : good enough, I guess.

...

I'd probably go for 16 GB of RAM though (add ~80 USD), maybe upscale the SSD to 240GB too (335 series, add ~55 USD), and get only a plain 1GB GTX 650 for now (subtract ~120 USD), but that would put you 15 USD higher than before.
Then get one of the better NVIDIA 800-series video cards late next year, a good while after they come out.
For now, even the 650 will do fine for a year or two... you won't need to run stuff on low (but you won't be running anything in highest either).

Alternatively, and probably better for you, you can downscale the SSD to the cheapest last-gen Intel you can find and use it as SSD cache only, not as main drive (subtract ~75 USD instead), and keep the 660 Ti, use the saved difference for the extra RAM mentioned before, while keeping the budget nearly the same.
Then, later on, get the larger SSD, whenever you have extra cash available. Use the new one as OS drive, and keep the small old one as SSD cache.

Even more alternatively, since nowadays most games are heavily GPU-bound (and fairly undemanding of the CPU), you could go with a cheaper CPU+MoBo combo from AMD and save quite a bit of cash right there.
It won't be pretty if//when you get in large-scale fleet combat in EVE, but, eh, not like the Intel will do *that* much better, so it's a definite "meh" on that front.
Depends on what else you want to do with the machine except gaming, I guess.

Your choices.


Aside from your post not making much sense to me, shouldn't you be use something like pcpartpicker rather than relying on just newegg?

While 16 GB is certainly handy when photo editing, video editing or running VMs, I don't see much need for it in gaming when most games (if not all) are still 32bit applications and it is not like Mizhir can't upgrade down the road. But could you elaborate your reasoning behind downgrading the GPU for a slightly larger SSD and 16 GB because that really made no sense to me.

The motherboard is a mATX, just throwing it out there.

Agent of Chaos, Sower of Discord.

Don't talk to me unless you are IQ verified and certified with three references from non-family members. Please have your certificate of authenticity on hand.

Surfin's PlunderBunny
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#8 - 2013-08-11 17:33:18 UTC
I took a little break from my Alienware streak (still love them) and got one from cyberpowerpc. It borders on acceptable and the prices aren't bad.

"Little ginger moron" ~David HasselhoffΒ 

Want to see what Surf is training or how little isk Surf has?Β  http://eveboard.com/pilot/Surfin%27s_PlunderBunny

Rotten Tuna
VSP Corp.
#9 - 2013-08-12 02:18:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Rotten Tuna
Here's my build idea for a mini-monster Big smilehttp://pcpartpicker.com/p/1qWsd

It shows the price as being about $200 over budget, but i cross checked with newegg and several of the items are a bit cheaper than listed.

I tried to select the absolute best parts for the budget and in the interest of future proofing.

Oh, and taxes were not factored in, so I may have went a little overboard >.> If I happen to be in the market for a new pc during a time when money is tight, I just buy a part or two at a time when money is available. Eventually you'll have a new, shiny, relatively future-proofed machine Cool
Alpheias
Tactical Farmers.
Pandemic Horde
#10 - 2013-08-12 02:29:58 UTC
Rotten Tuna wrote:
Here's my build idea for a mini-monster Big smilehttp://pcpartpicker.com/p/1qWsd

It shows the price as being about $200 over budget, but i cross checked with newegg and several of the items are a bit cheaper than listed.

I tried to select the absolute best parts for the budget and in the interest of future proofing.

Oh, and taxes were not factored in, so I may have went a little overboard >.> If I happen to be in the market for a new pc during a time when money is tight, I just buy a part or two at a time when money is available. Eventually you'll have a new, shiny, relatively future-proofed machine Cool


:notbad:

Personally I'd try to find a deal for a 670 as they constantly show up as hot deals every now and then rather than going with a 760. Smile

Agent of Chaos, Sower of Discord.

Don't talk to me unless you are IQ verified and certified with three references from non-family members. Please have your certificate of authenticity on hand.

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
#11 - 2013-08-12 20:46:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Akita T
Alpheias wrote:
shouldn't you be use something like pcpartpicker rather than relying on just newegg?

Huh. Nice site. Good for later.

Quote:
The motherboard is a mATX, just throwing it out there.

Double-checked, my bad, it is.

Quote:
While 16 GB is certainly handy when photo editing, video editing or running VMs, I don't see much need for it in gaming when most games (if not all) are still 32bit applications and it is not like Mizhir can't upgrade down the road. But could you elaborate your reasoning behind downgrading the GPU for a slightly larger SSD and 16 GB because that really made no sense to me.

The main reason was a desire for cheap upgradeability (minimal shuffling of existing components), with his current budget in mind.

Windows will use the entirety of your otherwise unused RAM as file cache, so even if you have no SDD at all, you will still enjoy SSD-like load times for the second and later times accessing various files that are still in that cache.
The more otherwise unused RAM you have, the more files can be stored that way, and the more likely it is your drives will stay unused longer, which in case of SSDs (especially if you keep the swap file on it) will translate in much a longer expected lifetime.
I had a mere 4 GB not so long ago, but upgraded to 16 GB (with absolutely no other change), and even if I seldom used up much more than 3 GB before, the performance difference is staggering (I kept postponing purchasing a SSD, and I have a quite slow WDC Green as my main drive).
Having a lot of seemingly unused RAM is actually a very good thing in quite a few unexpected situations.

A SSD is not something you want to swap out often, and you want it to last as much as possible.
Also, the less free space left on a SSD, the faster the performance and average lifetime will deprecate, so you really want a larger drive with as much free space on it as possible and financially feasible.
And you also want as much additional system RAM as possible to minimize SSD usage.
So, instead of getting a not-so-cheap modest sized one and abusing it by keeping it nearly full and swapping installed games on a semi-regular basis, better EITHER get a dirt-cheap tiny one (which you don't really care if it croaks early) and use it as SSD cache for your HDD (then later on, get a large one, when you have more cash), OR get the largest one you can find with a good price/size ratio from the start and stick with it (saving the cash from some other components which you'll upgrade later).

For the time being, most games are still focused on DX9 tech (with the odd DX10/DX11 "upgrade" here and there) and partially bound performance-wise by the current (nearly obsolete) gaming consoles.
That means, for the vast majority of games today, a 660 Ti is still overkill even on high-ish graphics detail settings (let alone medium), and you can count the good games where you really need that fast of a video card (or something better) in order to properly experience them at decent graphics detail levels.
A lowly GTX 650 will be borderline sufficient for the near future.

As the next crop of consoles starts getting sold in significant numbers, baseline graphic performances will start slowly sliding upwards, and it will be at least a year (probably even longer) until a much better video card would be justifiable.
Since the price/performance level noticeably shifts with each subsequent video card generation, and since the the best moment to get a brand new video card will be about half a year after it gets released, also since the mid-range video cards have the better price/performance ratios in most line-ups, the best moment to buy a new video card will be when the GTX *50-*60 models have been out for a few months (most likely that would be somewhere in the late 2014) AND about a year after the XBOne/PS4 (so, again, near the end of 2014).
Combine with very likely holiday discounts, and the best moment to buy a DECENT video card should be December 2014, and the best purchase will probably be a 3GB GTX 860 Ti (noticeably faster than the GTX 660 Ti, using up less power, and not much more expensive).
Mizhir
Devara Biotech
#12 - 2013-08-13 10:23:55 UTC
Hey All

thanks for the advice. I have discussed a few thing with Alpheias and I have also running a simelar thread on the RVB forum.

I have come to the conclusion that I will mainly stick with the initial setup. At the RVB forums there was rougly even split on opinions whether I should upgrade or downgrade the parts, so it must mean that we had hit pretty spot one.

Regarding RAM, then there have been many ppl telling me that 16GB isn't nescessary. And since it is rather easy to upgrade it, then I have decided to stick with 8GB atm. I don't think I would need a larger SSD. 120GB should be sufficient since I will jsut use it for windows+vital programs+EVE. That shouldn't add up to much more than 60GB. However I might be going for the 128GB version of the Samsung that Tuna suggested since the Intel SSD isn't sold that many places in Denmark and is rather expensive here.

@Tuna

The setup looks great however it is quite expensive. I ran through all the prices and 10749dkk was the cheapest I could get it for. And judging by most of the advice I have recieved from many people, then the setup does seem to be rather overkill. However I did notice that the GTX 760 is only 150dkk (20 euro) more expensive than the GTX 660ti, so I have been thinking about going with that one instead.

Both you and Alpheias suggested the WD Black 2TB (1050dkk) while I have seen the Seagate Barracuda 2TB for 650dkk. Is the big difference in price really worth it?

β€οΈοΈπŸ’›πŸ’šπŸ’™πŸ’œ

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
#13 - 2013-08-13 13:31:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Akita T
Mizhir wrote:
Regarding RAM, then there have been many ppl telling me that 16GB isn't nescessary. And since it is rather easy to upgrade it, then I have decided to stick with 8GB atm.

If you get a SSD and keep the swap file on the HDD instead of the SSD, you should be fine with 8 GB too.
There won't be many slowdowns (and when it happens, they'll most likely be brief) due to the OS using the swap file anyway.
You could keep the swap file on the SSD though, but it might reduce its expected lifetime quite a bit, especially if you won't have too much free space on it usually.

Mizhir wrote:
That shouldn't add up to much more than 60GB.

W64Ult over here, with a 80 GB OS partition. ~16.5 GB free. ~13 GB hyberfile. ~1 GB swap.
"My documents" is on a separate partition, no games installed on the OS partition either (it's not a separate drive, so why bother).
If you're not going to have too many other large games beside EVE, I suppose a 120 GB SSD would be adequate (especially if you keep the swap file on the HDD and disable hibernation).

Quote:
WD Black 2TB (1050dkk) while I have seen the Seagate Barracuda 2TB for 650dkk. Is the big difference in price really worth it?

If you get a SSD on which you'll be putting your apps and games, not really, no. Even a slower drive might do fine.
The only possible exception would be if you plan to use FRAPS heavily both at high FPS and high resolutions, and even then, just barely worth it.

Mizhir wrote:
I did notice that the GTX 760 is only 150dkk (20 euro) more expensive than the GTX 660ti, so I have been thinking about going with that one instead.

Depends on exact models you compare.
If you're talking stock speeds, then the 760 is allegedly only about 10% faster at best than the 660 Ti and probably less than 5% faster on average (it has a pixel fill advantage but a texel fill disadvantage, so it depends on what you use it for and in which resolution - could actually run slower than the 660Ti in some cases, especially for compute tasks - in games it's usually better though), but it could be using up to 170W instead of 150W while operating, so I guess it depends on what you care about more, processing power or electric power usage/ heat generation AND on exactly what you'll be playing.
Also, side note, on newegg at least, similarly specced 760s are cheaper than 660 Tis, not the other way around.
Mizhir
Devara Biotech
#14 - 2013-08-14 18:36:55 UTC
Alright. So I have settled with a build:

Gigabyte GA-H87M-D3H, Socket-1150
Intel Core i5-4430 Processor
eVGA GeForce GTX 760 (4 GB)
Kingston DDR3 HyperX Beast 8GB
Samsung 840 Pro Series 128GB
Seagate Barracuda 2TB
CoolerMaster Silent Pro Gold 550W PSU
Fractal Design Define Mini

And I just want some final opinions on it. Is there some major flaws and/or is there something I have missed? The GPU might be abit overkill compared to the rest, but I intend to upgrade some parts on the run and the GPU will most likely be one of the last ones, so I hope it will have a rather long lifetime.

There was one thing that concerned me though. According to the specs of the Motherboard, it can only support RAM at up to 1600MHz which seems abit low compared to which types are available at the moment. Will it limit me too much if I go with that one, thus I should find a better one or will it be fine?

The total cost atm is 7686dkk, which isn't a problem for me.

β€οΈοΈπŸ’›πŸ’šπŸ’™πŸ’œ

Rotten Tuna
VSP Corp.
#15 - 2013-08-14 22:00:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Rotten Tuna
I'd say go with 16gb ram if you're planning to run multiple clients of any game, ram isn't exactly expensive these days.

As for the hard drive, I trust WD not to die on me at some point in the future. I've been using WD drives since the late 90's and not a single one has failed. Many of my friends have used seagate drives before and I've seen them experience quite a number of dead drives which made me paranoid about them Ugh
Mizhir
Devara Biotech
#16 - 2013-08-14 22:30:49 UTC
But the 1600MHz RAM freq is ok?

β€οΈοΈπŸ’›πŸ’šπŸ’™πŸ’œ

Rotten Tuna
VSP Corp.
#17 - 2013-08-14 23:56:34 UTC
For your build, yes it is.
Caleidascope
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#18 - 2013-08-15 00:15:00 UTC
Mizhir wrote:
But the 1600MHz RAM freq is ok?

yes

Life is short and dinner time is chancy

Eat dessert first!

Alpheias
Tactical Farmers.
Pandemic Horde
#19 - 2013-08-15 08:26:47 UTC
Akita T wrote:

Windows will use the entirety of your otherwise unused RAM as file cache, so even if you have no SDD at all, you will still enjoy SSD-like load times for the second and later times accessing various files that are still in that cache.
The more otherwise unused RAM you have, the more files can be stored that way, and the more likely it is your drives will stay unused longer, which in case of SSDs (especially if you keep the swap file on it) will translate in much a longer expected lifetime.
I had a mere 4 GB not so long ago, but upgraded to 16 GB (with absolutely no other change), and even if I seldom used up much more than 3 GB before, the performance difference is staggering (I kept postponing purchasing a SSD, and I have a quite slow WDC Green as my main drive).
Having a lot of seemingly unused RAM is actually a very good thing in quite a few unexpected situations.


I have SSDs in my main box and in the "steam" box, with 8GB of RAM each, and while it is true that Windows gobbles up all RAM available if you have a lot of processes running (superfetch being the worst) I largely consider it to be a non-issue if you run a majority of your applications from a SSD in which case, superfetch should always be disabled.

Akita T wrote:

A SSD is not something you want to swap out often, and you want it to last as much as possible.


I think your argument falls apart completely because SSDs has seen a increase in space, reliability and price drops in a short amount of time, in the context of computer hardware. And there is plenty of of helpful pointers out there how to maximize lifetime on your SSD online.

If anything, I'd be more concerned about backups than any of my SSDs.

Akita T wrote:

Also, the less free space left on a SSD, the faster the performance and average lifetime will deprecate, so you really want a larger drive with as much free space on it as possible and financially feasible.
And you also want as much additional system RAM as possible to minimize SSD usage.
So, instead of getting a not-so-cheap modest sized one and abusing it by keeping it nearly full and swapping installed games on a semi-regular basis, better EITHER get a dirt-cheap tiny one (which you don't really care if it croaks early) and use it as SSD cache for your HDD (then later on, get a large one, when you have more cash), OR get the largest one you can find with a good price/size ratio from the start and stick with it (saving the cash from some other components which you'll upgrade later).


While it is true that a crammed SSD will not perform well but having a 120GB is enough for Windows, your documents, key applications for your productivity. Anything else can be stored on a standard HDD so again, a non-issue.

Akita T wrote:

For the time being, most games are still focused on DX9 tech (with the odd DX10/DX11 "upgrade" here and there) and partially bound performance-wise by the current (nearly obsolete) gaming consoles.
That means, for the vast majority of games today, a 660 Ti is still overkill even on high-ish graphics detail settings (let alone medium), and you can count the good games where you really need that fast of a video card (or something better) in order to properly experience them at decent graphics detail levels.
A lowly GTX 650 will be borderline sufficient for the near future.


I don't think Mizhir plans on playing just those games that has been held down by old consoles to be fair.

Akita T wrote:

As the next crop of consoles starts getting sold in significant numbers, baseline graphic performances will start slowly sliding upwards, and it will be at least a year (probably even longer) until a much better video card would be justifiable.
Since the price/performance level noticeably shifts with each subsequent video card generation, and since the the best moment to get a brand new video card will be about half a year after it gets released, also since the mid-range video cards have the better price/performance ratios in most line-ups, the best moment to buy a new video card will be when the GTX *50-*60 models have been out for a few months (most likely that would be somewhere in the late 2014) AND about a year after the XBOne/PS4 (so, again, near the end of 2014).
Combine with very likely holiday discounts, and the best moment to buy a DECENT video card should be December 2014, and the best purchase will probably be a 3GB GTX 860 Ti (noticeably faster than the GTX 660 Ti, using up less power, and not much more expensive).


Plenty of good offers as is now. I have spotted a few 670s going for around 2000-2900 SEK which will last a while.

Agent of Chaos, Sower of Discord.

Don't talk to me unless you are IQ verified and certified with three references from non-family members. Please have your certificate of authenticity on hand.

Eternum Praetorian
Doomheim
#20 - 2013-08-16 17:05:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Eternum Praetorian
I strongly suggest looking over the Maingear website: Maingear



That link will take you to the Vybe section of their website, which is their base model. You can customize features in real time and get an exact quote. I have delt with other computer companies, and some of them had down right ****** attitudes and costumer service. These guys are almost too nice on the phone, and they know how to build an awesome machine. Cheap, high-end or a little bit of both.



You can see their stuff and services being reviewed on youtube. I got my F131 right after that big storm hit New Jersey and flooded everything. My rig was delivered in perfect condition only a week late. Needless to say I was very impressed. I got to talk too the man who was building my computer, and even send him little email notes before it was done. I know of no other company that does it as good.




Just my 2 cents. I won't be buying computers from anyone else from this point on.

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