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Public Service Announcement concerning wormhole data and relic sites [Sisi now updated]

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Author
Sylvanium Orlenard
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#21 - 2013-08-08 19:13:47 UTC
I have records of all the loot that was collected by the E-UNI Wormhole Campus from before and after the Odyssey change.

I can confirm that not a single Hull Section (Wreck, Malfunctioning or Intact) has been collected by us since the Odyssey change. I am having trouble believing that all the Hull Sections that dropped were not looted because of lacking cargo space . . . That seems like a statistical impossibility.

Disclaimer: We usually farm a C3 wormhole and yes hull sections dropped rarely before the odyssey change they still dropped. Now we never see them.

Regarding the Use of Cargo scanners : It has been our experience that cargo scanning is unreliable as they don't give you the full content of the can just a partial list.
Ion Blacknight
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#22 - 2013-08-08 20:12:14 UTC
I do not do data or relic sites any more since Odyssey, the new mechanics are both tedious and annoying and the rewards are not there.

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Dolph Carebear
Adohivatal
#23 - 2013-08-08 22:29:38 UTC
I don't find the hacking minigame itself very engaging, but I can sort of get behind it. Yes, it could be more fun, and it could use a bit more player skill (strategy, etc) but it's not all bad. It really should be a lot more like it is in Deus Ex, but whatevs. Truth be told, having to divide your attention between local/dscan and the minigame is exciting when your'e in hostile space.

The scatter mechanism however? Come on. It's the only builcrap twitch mechanism in Eve, it stands out like a sore thumb. I mean, wtf? If you guys are so behind this idiocy, why not change ALL loot mechanics to work like this? Gank an industrial? Great, now fetch as many itty-bitty cans as you can. Succeeded at salvaging that wreck? Great, watch out, cans are flying!

Furthermore, scatter adds nothing to the experience. Yes, I did try bringing mates along to make sure we get all the loot, but frankly, the rewards aren't there to justify the time spent for three people, and it's just a boring waste of time for two of them. So other than a failed attempt at increasing the social angle of exploration, just what exactly is it supposed to achieve?
Dr No Game
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#24 - 2013-08-09 01:03:21 UTC
Ion Blacknight wrote:
I do not do data or relic sites any more since Odyssey, the new mechanics are both tedious and annoying and the rewards are not there.


I agree completely. I was just getting into exploration pre-Odyssey and was loving it, the new system just killed it for me. I like the idea, the hacking minigame is cool, but I liked the old system "activate module, collect a single can."
ChaseTheLasers
Ekchuah's Shrine Comporium
#25 - 2013-08-09 11:31:41 UTC
Thanks for the post, Fozzie.

Do you have any plans to iterate on the game design itself? As you can see from this thread and many more on here, there is a lot of dislike for the current mechanics.

I hope that CCP still has staff playing in wormholes and can see / hear the dislike of the current system on coms. It really makes for tedious gameplay.
CeNSeR
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#26 - 2013-08-09 16:00:28 UTC
Seems to me that there are several problems.

- Cans are not dropping the loot they are supposed to.
- There is a problem with the size of the loot.
- The sites take so long that nobody can be bothered with them.

Speaking for my corp we used to run these sites all the time but since the update we do not bother as it takes far too long to loot the cans and the mini game is just crap.
unimatrix0030
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#27 - 2013-08-09 21:30:46 UTC
In any case thanks for the heads up CCP Fozzie!
Lets hope all the kinks and bugs will be out soon!

No local in null sec would fix everything!

Maximus Andendare
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#28 - 2013-08-09 21:33:22 UTC
ChaseTheLasers wrote:
Thanks for the post, Fozzie.

Do you have any plans to iterate on the game design itself? As you can see from this thread and many more on here, there is a lot of dislike for the current mechanics.

I hope that CCP still has staff playing in wormholes and can see / hear the dislike of the current system on coms. It really makes for tedious gameplay.
You mean you don't like huddling up with your corpmates around a can to grab a small can on a cluttered screen only to get that piece of coal when a hack is "successful"??? :)

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Elemental Order
Cycle of Decay
#29 - 2013-08-10 02:52:14 UTC
Chitsa Jason wrote:
+1

Thank you fozzie for looking into this.


Thank you Chitsa very much for getting this brought to the attention of CCP so quickly.

Thank you Fozzie for looking at this as well.

I would like to share my similar view as my corpmates that even with 200+ m3 of space in ships I haven't picked any up myself. But will continue testing in the meantime. Should hull sections show up in a cargo scan of the containers?
Chitsa Jason
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#30 - 2013-08-10 12:08:09 UTC
Elemental Order wrote:
Chitsa Jason wrote:
+1

Thank you fozzie for looking into this.


Thank you Chitsa very much for getting this brought to the attention of CCP so quickly.

Thank you Fozzie for looking at this as well.

I would like to share my similar view as my corpmates that even with 200+ m3 of space in ships I haven't picked any up myself. But will continue testing in the meantime. Should hull sections show up in a cargo scan of the containers?


If you see any hull sections drop please report it to me. Me and Fozzie are looking into this.

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CCP Fozzie
C C P
C C P Alliance
#31 - 2013-08-10 13:01:24 UTC
We know that there are definitely other issues causing the talocan ships to not drop stuff, and we're getting closer to finding the cause. We'll keep you guys updated.

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Kara Kardan
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#32 - 2013-08-10 15:31:57 UTC
Good to hear you look into that. We have more or less stopped running this completely because we never saw any more drops.
Its a bit of a shame really, since it was an activity for small groups to be done beforehand and now is lost. We have people stop playing at times because of this.

Wasn't like it wasn't hard enough before with running these sites, the added hacking game and scarceness of the drop doesn't really help.
Alexander McKeon
Perkone
Caldari State
#33 - 2013-08-10 18:31:59 UTC
Fozzie, is there any chance that you're also looking into reducing the number of containers that need to be hacked? As compared to k-space exploration sites, the effort / reward ratio is way out of balance. Having to sit through hacking over a dozen cans gets very, very old, to the point where people just don't want to do the sites anymore.
TheSmokingHertog
Julia's Interstellar Trade Emperium
#34 - 2013-08-11 03:44:43 UTC
Carebear question, can't you just jettison some item from your hold, and dump stuff in there, and fly in / out te get the stuff together?

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Altrue
Exploration Frontier inc
Tactical-Retreat
#35 - 2013-08-11 11:58:42 UTC
Alexander McKeon wrote:
Fozzie, is there any chance that you're also looking into reducing the number of containers that need to be hacked? As compared to k-space exploration sites, the effort / reward ratio is way out of balance. Having to sit through hacking over a dozen cans gets very, very old, to the point where people just don't want to do the sites anymore.


I wouldn't hope too much if I were you, they didn't give a Shocked when we were a lot to complain after odyssey release.

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ExookiZ
The Dark Space Initiative
Scary Wormhole People
#36 - 2013-08-11 12:12:43 UTC
Chitsa/Fozzie, did our video help? :)

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Bittersweet Badasaz
Q.Q.
#37 - 2013-08-11 17:03:28 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Hello fair wormholers.

We've got a PSA for you all and I would appreciate it if you spread the word among your fellow frontierspeople.

With the new scatter mechanics introduced in Odyssey, if someone loots a scatter container and does not have enough space in their cargo hold to fit the result, their attempt to loot will be unsuccessful.

We have been noticing a lot of these unsuccessful loot attempts in wormhole space, and believe that it is mainly occurring with ancient relics contained in wormhole data and relic sites. The sleeper hull relics are especially tricky as their 100m3 size means you need a significant amount of free cargo room to pick them up.

We believe that this contributes to some of the reports from wormholers that they are seeing fewer hull sections dropping (although it isn't the only cause). We are continuing to investigate the other causes and will hopefully find a solution soon.

We are investigating ways to make this interaction between the scatter containers and your free cargo space more intuitive and easier to manage, but in the meantime we strongly advise those people looting wormhole relic and data sites (especially the talocan ships) to ensure that they have plenty of free cargo space.

TL:DR When you're looting scatter containers in wormhole space, have plenty of free cargo space available or you'll miss out on the high volume stuff.


Hi Fozzie, as a C1 wormhole dweller I have never seen anything of any value drop from a relic or data site after Odyssey came out and yet the new mechanics make them more time consuming and tedious to run. I just run the sleepers and hope the relic and data sites go away now as they are obnoxious to scan also. Could you actually put some rewards there? I haven't tried actually looting for a while since it was so useless so if you changed it to put anything of value worth the time there feel free to correct. Be happy if that changed, thanks.
Proddy Scun
Doomheim
#38 - 2013-08-12 01:11:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Proddy Scun
IDK about it being space.

NEVER filled up cargo to within 100m3 yet.

Still don't see the hull drops.

What I do see is that UI lacks feedback. In time sensitive gathering operations this leads to spamming mouse clicks.
Shocked I assume spammed mouse clicks result in a lot of failed collection attempts.

Worse it looks like collection process actually does stall at times. Often you get bigger selected item symbol but the ship neither tractors the item in nor moves toward the item to scoop it up. I've never seen discussion on how to cause the tractoring vs approach and scooping. (I do have tractors on ship but I get the impression that tractoring of collected items is unrelated since there is no actaul target selection.) So really users need some feedback as to how to stimulate expedited collection of items once selected.

Perhaps you should put scatter items in the overview or at least be normal targeted items if properly selected for recovery so that users have 100% confidence in tractoring items aroudn instead of trying approach (which also seems to be purely a result of spamming clicks).
P J Sapphire
Reckless-Endangerment
Manifesto.
#39 - 2013-08-12 11:07:17 UTC
Proddy Scun wrote:
IDK about it being space.

NEVER filled up cargo to within 100m3 yet.

Still don't see the hull drops.

What I do see is that UI lacks feedback. In time sensitive gathering operations this leads to spamming mouse clicks.
Shocked I assume spammed mouse clicks result in a lot of failed collection attempts.

Worse it looks like collection process actually does stall at times. Often you get bigger selected item symbol but the ship neither tractors the item in nor moves toward the item to scoop it up. I've never seen discussion on how to cause the tractoring vs approach and scooping. (I do have tractors on ship but I get the impression that tractoring of collected items is unrelated since there is no actaul target selection.) So really users need some feedback as to how to stimulate expedited collection of items once selected.

Perhaps you should put scatter items in the overview or at least be normal targeted items if properly selected for recovery so that users have 100% confidence in tractoring items aroudn instead of trying approach (which also seems to be purely a result of spamming clicks).



+1 for the above. Nothing is more annoying for me than to be in my dedicated Imicus hacking ship and traveling out of range of most of the cans after spam clicking to gather a container. I mean, seriously, why have ships with hacking bonuses if you cannot use them because they do not have the space available or they are so fast that after they head for one can, you cannot get back to the next can before it disappears because you are out of range. (The can has turned white instead of green or yellow)

SPAM LEFT CLICKING IS HORRIBLE... The Scatter Can System is HORRIBLE.... I have tried single left clicking and it only works about 1 out of every 4 times. I do not know if it is a timing issue, do not click until the current can has been collected or what. I know that single clicking the next can after I start tractoring the current can does not work for me. The hacking game is ok with full bonus and training, but since you cannot use the bonus hacking ships due to reasons explained in this forum, why bother at all. I make more isk per hour ratting with 2 of my characters than I do running data and relic sites with them.
Ad'Hakim Tahous
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#40 - 2013-08-12 11:47:20 UTC
The mini-game is tedious. IMHO adds little, if anything, to the challenge.

I find the loot scatter mechanic to be absurd. It is inconsistent with any comparable mechanic for any other loot drop. As others have stated in this thread, it feels like a penalty and the rewards simply don't match the risks for several pilots to be present to attempt the grab at every mini-can.

Many, many comments have been written over the years that detail why Eve is not a joystick-oriented, twitch-and-shoot type of game. Why have you added a mechanic that calls for this activity in a PC environment?

+1 for trying something new. -1 for the result. Please, please correct this well-meaning error