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need advice for lvl.4. Golem
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Exodus Machiavelli
Teodora Extraction and Distribution Industries
#1 - 2013-08-07 11:13:26 UTC
Hello there - I need some guidance to solve a couple of dilemmas.

I played for around 2 years 2007-2009 and just recently restarted. So currently I am collecting ISK and flying the following fail fit T1 Raven:
High: - 6x T2 Cruise
Mid: 4 mission specific T2 hardeners, T2 SBA, PWANGE target painter, X-Large C5-L Emergency Shield Overload I
Lows: 3 BCU, 2 PDS
Rigs: 3xCCC

So - I am thinking of building a proper mission ship - either RNI, SNI or Golem (i have marauders at lvl.4) As I want to be not too nervous about the tank - I decided that I will go for SNI or Golem, and taking into account the salvage perk - Golem seems to be the final goal.

I have some doubts though - how should I fit the tank on the Golem and how sustainable it will be, taking into account that there will not be a single cap recharging module?
Should three mission specific T2 hardeners and a X-Large C5-L Emergency Shield Overload I be sufficient enough and manage cap-wise?
Should I go for a faction/deadspace shield booster and what will be the cheapest option that works?
Does it pay off to go for faction/deadspace hardeners or not?
Should I put a SBA or cap booster instead of a MWD or painters?
Or, if I have to summarize it, - do you think 500m tank will be enough for lvl4 running Golem and what would you spend it on?

Thank you in advance!
Bertrand Butler
Cras es Noster
#2 - 2013-08-07 12:24:23 UTC
For almost all L4s you will need about 500HP/s for 3 minutes or so max. You can fit a 70mil tank on a Golem with no problems really. Here is a cheap, tried and tested example.

[Golem, Odyssey L4 PvE Golem]

Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II

Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Dread Guristas Large Shield Booster
100MN Afterburner II
Pith C-Type Kinetic Deflection Field
Pith C-Type Thermic Dissipation Field
Republic Fleet Target Painter
Republic Fleet Target Painter

Small Tractor Beam II
Small Tractor Beam II
Torpedo Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Torpedo
Torpedo Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Torpedo
Torpedo Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Torpedo
Torpedo Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Torpedo
Salvager II

Large Hydraulic Bay Thrusters I
Large Rocket Fuel Cache Partition I

Hobgoblin II x5
Hammerhead II x5
Caleidascope
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#3 - 2013-08-07 15:39:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Caleidascope
Exodus Machiavelli wrote:
Hello there - I need some guidance to solve a couple of dilemmas.

I played for around 2 years 2007-2009 and just recently restarted. So currently I am collecting ISK and flying the following fail fit T1 Raven:
High: - 6x T2 Cruise
Mid: 4 mission specific T2 hardeners, T2 SBA, PWANGE target painter, X-Large C5-L Emergency Shield Overload I
Lows: 3 BCU, 2 PDS
Rigs: 3xCCC

So - I am thinking of building a proper mission ship - either RNI, SNI or Golem (i have marauders at lvl.4) As I want to be not too nervous about the tank - I decided that I will go for SNI or Golem, and taking into account the salvage perk - Golem seems to be the final goal.

I have some doubts though - how should I fit the tank on the Golem and how sustainable it will be, taking into account that there will not be a single cap recharging module?
Should three mission specific T2 hardeners and a X-Large C5-L Emergency Shield Overload I be sufficient enough and manage cap-wise?
Should I go for a faction/deadspace shield booster and what will be the cheapest option that works?
Does it pay off to go for faction/deadspace hardeners or not?
Should I put a SBA or cap booster instead of a MWD or painters?
Or, if I have to summarize it, - do you think 500m tank will be enough for lvl4 running Golem and what would you spend it on?

Thank you in advance!

The t1 raven you had is not bad. Your mistakes were the tp and the ccc rigs. Fit lmjd to jump 100km every 3 minutes as needed, rat scram does not stop lmjd so you can always jump out and away from rats, and then warp out of the mission room if you get in trouble. Instead of ccc rigs fit 3x rigor, or 2x rigor + 1x flare.

One more thing. You may want to replace the 2x pds in low slots. They are fine as they are now. But here are some options for you:
1) 2x pds (that is what you have now)
2) 1x pds and 1x sensor booster
3) 2x sensor booster
4) 1x pds and 1x bcs
5) 1x bcs and 1x co-processor
Overall, the cpu should be pretty tight. So don't be surprised if a couple of options I listed above would not work.

The golem is useless for you at this time. navy scorp is nice but you already failed to fit t1 raven properly, i fear you will fail again with navy scorp because navy scorp is t1 raven with more tank. navy raven is less tank, more dps, since you already failed with t1 raven, i fear you will fail with navy raven as well. so. Figure out t1 raven first, once you know what you are doing with t1 raven, upgrade to navy scorp or navy raven.

Life is short and dinner time is chancy

Eat dessert first!
Chainsaw Plankton
FaDoyToy
#4 - 2013-08-07 17:03:14 UTC
Bertrand Butler wrote:
For almost all L4s you will need about 500HP/s for 3 minutes or so max. You can fit a 70mil tank on a Golem with no problems really. Here is a cheap, tried and tested example.


most of my lv4 ships have ~300 dps omnitank. when you are doing 1k+ dps that is overtanked most of the time.

I'd get a pithum c-type booster as they are pretty cheap right now (148.5m) and the price looks like it is going to keep going down. and easily puts you at a 300 hp/s tank.

only thing I'm not sure about is the rigs. maybe rigors would be better, but I had the missile speed rigs from when it was torp fit, and they seem pretty nice, not sure they need changing, but for how often I fly it I'm not going to switch em.

[Golem, cruise hbt]
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System

Pithum C-Type Medium Shield Booster
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Shield Boost Amplifier II
Republic Fleet 100MN Afterburner
Republic Fleet Target Painter
Republic Fleet Target Painter

Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile
Small Tractor Beam II
Small Tractor Beam II
Salvager II

Large Hydraulic Bay Thrusters II
Large Hydraulic Bay Thrusters II


Hobgoblin II x5
Warden II x2

@ChainsawPlankto on twitter
Bertrand Butler
Cras es Noster
#5 - 2013-08-07 17:15:32 UTC
Well if you are using cruises then rigors make much more sense really.

Quote:
most of my lv4 ships have ~300 dps omnitank. when you are doing 1k+ dps that is overtanked most of the time.


And thats why I said max. The amount of tank you need is dependent on a number of factors and also varies a lot from one mission to the next. As a rule of thumb, MJD boats will need a lot less tank than other ships, and the same goes for strategic cruisers.
Exodus Machiavelli
Teodora Extraction and Distribution Industries
#6 - 2013-08-08 06:14:46 UTC
Thanks for all suggestions!

Quote:
The t1 raven you had is not bad. Your mistakes were the tp and the ccc rigs. Fit lmjd to jump 100km every 3 minutes as needed, rat scram does not stop lmjd so you can always jump out and away from rats, and then warp out of the mission room if you get in trouble. Instead of ccc rigs fit 3x rigor, or 2x rigor + 1x flare.


As I said - I returned after 4 years break and I basically fly the 2009 Raven. Please do not assume I will fail fit repeatedly.
Also - I was rusty on the mission execution management - so I opted for more comfortable running with more tank + more cap, while I get used to missions again.

I do not like the MJD idea very much, as I want to salvage on the go.

I will do some real-game testing, but I guess I will go either for Pithum C-Type Medium Shield Booster + T2 SBA + 3 hardeners (until I am comfortable dropping one) or Pith C-Type X-Large Shield Booster + 3/2 hardeners + 0/1 T2 SBA and maybe will also try Cap Booster. Gist is off-scale pricewise.
Exodus Machiavelli
Teodora Extraction and Distribution Industries
#7 - 2013-08-09 06:34:51 UTC
So - it should be something like that:

Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Ballistic Control System II

Gist C-Type Large Shield Booster
Shield Boost Amplifier II
Kinetic Deflection Field II
Kinetic Deflection Field II
Thermic Dissipation Field II
Republic Fleet Target Painter
Republic Fleet Target Painter

Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile
Small Tractor Beam II
Small Tractor Beam II
Salvager II

Large Warhead Rigor Catalyst II
Large Warhead Flare Catalyst II

Any suggestions for improvement within additional budget of 200m are welcome!
stoicfaux
#8 - 2013-08-09 14:04:59 UTC
Exodus Machiavelli wrote:

Large Warhead Rigor Catalyst II
Large Warhead Flare Catalyst II

Any suggestions for improvement within additional budget of 200m are welcome!

Use either 2x Rigors or 2x missile speed rigs.

Two rigors are better than 1rigor,1flare, (especially with the Golem's explosion velocity bonus.)

Two tech 2 missile speed rigs means you don't have to volley count out to ~90km (the TP bonus makes up for the lack of rigor rigs except when TPs miss in falloff.) Also NPC defender performance is degraded when your missiles are traveling at 15,000m/s.

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
stoicfaux
#9 - 2013-08-09 14:08:01 UTC
Chainsaw Plankton wrote:

most of my lv4 ships have ~300 dps omnitank. when you are doing 1k+ dps that is overtanked most of the time.

I'd get a pithum c-type booster as they are pretty cheap right now (148.5m) and the price looks like it is going to keep going down. and easily puts you at a 300 hp/s tank.

Yes, but... you can still lose your perma-boosted Pithum-C MSB 300 DPS tank Golem with T2 missile speed rigs on a disconnect in a couple of high DPS missions.

/grumble

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
Exodus Machiavelli
Teodora Extraction and Distribution Industries
#10 - 2013-08-09 14:35:21 UTC
Quote:
Two tech 2 missile speed rigs means you don't have to volley count out to ~90km (the TP bonus makes up for the lack of rigor rigs except when TPs miss in falloff.) Also NPC defender performance is degraded when your missiles are traveling at 15,000m/s.


Hmm - but if TP bonus makes up for the lack of rigor rigs (are two TPs enough to make Furys hit cruisers hard enough?), then - shouldn't I look at either ROF (Large Bay Loading Accelerator) or damage (Large Warhead Calefaction Catalyst)?

Of course - cuz of calibration - it should be either 1T2 rig (Large Bay Loading Accelerator/Large Warhead Calefaction Catalyst) plus 1T1 Rigor/1T2Flare or just plain 2T1 Large Bay Loading Accelerator/Large Warhead Calefaction Catalyst). Will try EFT tonight.

On a side note - the perk of missile speed is not that big IMHO - I usually try to decrease wasted salvos by not grouping all launchers and swicthing targets earlier.
Eariorithia
Doomheim
#11 - 2013-08-09 14:50:16 UTC
Some solid advice in this thread, most aimed at maximizing dps and thus requiring lesser tank because **** dies quickly.

Personally I'm more of a laid-back mission runner that prefers to emphasize on tank over dmg. I choose to run with the Navy Raven and this is my fit. It's cap stable and tanks anywhere between 637 (sansha) and 860 (gurista) dps after changing to mission specific hardeners ofc. (below is my gurista fit).

DPS is around 800 w/ drones

For looting I first used salvage drones, but i just didnt like the time it took, so i trained ORE industrial to 3 and got a noctis to do that ****.. so much better.

[Raven Navy Issue, CNR]
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Imperial Navy Capacitor Power Relay
Caldari Navy Power Diagnostic System

Pith A-Type Large Shield Booster
Gist B-Type Shield Boost Amplifier
Kinetic Deflection Field II
Kinetic Deflection Field II
Thermic Dissipation Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Cap Recharger II

Cruise Missile Launcher II, Scourge Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Scourge Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Scourge Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Scourge Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Scourge Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Scourge Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Scourge Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Scourge Cruise Missile

Large Capacitor Control Circuit I
Large Capacitor Control Circuit I
Large Capacitor Control Circuit I

Hobgoblin II x5
Hammerhead II x5


[Noctis, Salvage]
Expanded Cargohold II
Expanded Cargohold II
Expanded Cargohold II

Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I
Cap Recharger II

Small Tractor Beam I
Small Tractor Beam I
Small Tractor Beam I
Small Tractor Beam I
Small Tractor Beam I
Small Tractor Beam I
Salvager I
Salvager I

Medium Salvage Tackle I
Medium Salvage Tackle I
Medium Salvage Tackle I

Salvage Drone I x5
stoicfaux
#12 - 2013-08-09 17:59:22 UTC
Exodus Machiavelli wrote:
Quote:
Two tech 2 missile speed rigs means you don't have to volley count out to ~90km (the TP bonus makes up for the lack of rigor rigs except when TPs miss in falloff.) Also NPC defender performance is degraded when your missiles are traveling at 15,000m/s.


Hmm - but if TP bonus makes up for the lack of rigor rigs (are two TPs enough to make Furys hit cruisers hard enough?), then - shouldn't I look at either ROF (Large Bay Loading Accelerator) or damage (Large Warhead Calefaction Catalyst)?

Of course - cuz of calibration - it should be either 1T2 rig (Large Bay Loading Accelerator/Large Warhead Calefaction Catalyst) plus 1T1 Rigor/1T2Flare or just plain 2T1 Large Bay Loading Accelerator/Large Warhead Calefaction Catalyst). Will try EFT tonight.

On a side note - the perk of missile speed is not that big IMHO - I usually try to decrease wasted salvos by not grouping all launchers and swicthing targets earlier.


T1 LBAs/Calefaction rigs are bad. They get stacking penalized into nothingness with 4 CN BCUs.

NPC Defenders roll their "do I fire at your missile?" check once per missile group. So the more missile groups you have, the more you risk losing 25% of your volley's damage. 15km/s missiles are immune to defenders at short range (~<30km) and at long range (70+km, maybe closer).

Each time you miscount a volley per reload (i.e per 27 salvos), you lose 3.7% of your DPS for that reload. The T2 BLA provides a 6% raw DPS boost. YMMV.

If I were to replace my Golem, I would be up in the air as to whether to fit rigors (easier to apply damage) or speed rigs (less defender nonsense, practically no volley counting.)


Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
Caleidascope
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#13 - 2013-08-09 20:18:20 UTC
Exodus Machiavelli wrote:
So - it should be something like that:

Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Ballistic Control System II

Gist C-Type Large Shield Booster
Shield Boost Amplifier II
Kinetic Deflection Field II
Kinetic Deflection Field II
Thermic Dissipation Field II
Republic Fleet Target Painter
Republic Fleet Target Painter

Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile
Small Tractor Beam II
Small Tractor Beam II
Salvager II

Large Warhead Rigor Catalyst II
Large Warhead Flare Catalyst II

Any suggestions for improvement within additional budget of 200m are welcome!

I see dead people.

Life is short and dinner time is chancy

Eat dessert first!
Chainsaw Plankton
FaDoyToy
#14 - 2013-08-10 04:52:12 UTC
stoicfaux wrote:
If I were to replace my Golem, I would be up in the air as to whether to fit rigors (easier to apply damage) or speed rigs (less defender nonsense, practically no volley counting.)


I was using auto targeting missiles in a worlds collide and at ~120km I'm pretty sure I wasn't wasting volleys.

@ChainsawPlankto on twitter
Noemi Nagano
Perkone
Caldari State
#15 - 2013-08-13 09:07:10 UTC
Eariorithia wrote:


[Raven Navy Issue, CNR]
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Imperial Navy Capacitor Power Relay
Caldari Navy Power Diagnostic System

Pith A-Type Large Shield Booster
Gist B-Type Shield Boost Amplifier
Kinetic Deflection Field II
Kinetic Deflection Field II
Thermic Dissipation Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Cap Recharger II

Cruise Missile Launcher II, Scourge Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Scourge Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Scourge Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Scourge Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Scourge Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Scourge Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Scourge Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Scourge Cruise Missile

Large Capacitor Control Circuit I
Large Capacitor Control Circuit I
Large Capacitor Control Circuit I

Hobgoblin II x5
Hammerhead II x5





While I like the idea of a capstable and not too expensive mission runner with a solid tank, I still see one issue with your fitting - you mixed a cap power relay module with active shield tanking, which is not a good idea. Why? Because of the attributes of CPR-modules, while they improve your cap recharge, they will also decrease your shield boost, which is something you dont want as an active shield tank. Better try to fit something else to get you cap stable ... will dl EFT later and make a suggestion, by PM .... fly safe.