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One major problem with removing OGBs.
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Batelle
Federal Navy Academy
#101 - 2013-08-06 20:48:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Batelle
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
Batelle wrote:
Diesel47 wrote:

Proposed Idea: A smaller gang wants to fight a bigger gang, they jump in and realize the bigger gang has a massively tanked command ship giving off all types of bonuses. They no longer can use an off grid boost so they don't receive any bonuses to counter the bigger gang, The bigger gang effectively has more ships, goes faster, scrams further, and tanks harder than the smaller gang. How is that any better?


Big gangs get to bring force multipliers because they have more ships. If the smaller gang feels they have enough ships for a command ship to be worth bringing, then they can still do so. This puts command ships on the same level as ewar or logistics. They all have to be on the field. I don't see what the problem is.

You could move logistics off the field, to buff small gang PvP. Not having to have vulnerable logistics ships on the field evens out the field between small gangs and blobs because small gangs can always have logi in a safe spot.



I am absolutely speechless. You cannot possibly be serious. Also, in the thread you linked, you suggested logi ships should be able to rep from inside pos shields. Shocked

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Diesel47
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#102 - 2013-08-06 21:07:02 UTC
Batelle wrote:
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
Batelle wrote:
Diesel47 wrote:

Proposed Idea: A smaller gang wants to fight a bigger gang, they jump in and realize the bigger gang has a massively tanked command ship giving off all types of bonuses. They no longer can use an off grid boost so they don't receive any bonuses to counter the bigger gang, The bigger gang effectively has more ships, goes faster, scrams further, and tanks harder than the smaller gang. How is that any better?


Big gangs get to bring force multipliers because they have more ships. If the smaller gang feels they have enough ships for a command ship to be worth bringing, then they can still do so. This puts command ships on the same level as ewar or logistics. They all have to be on the field. I don't see what the problem is.

You could move logistics off the field, to buff small gang PvP. Not having to have vulnerable logistics ships on the field evens out the field between small gangs and blobs because small gangs can always have logi in a safe spot.



I am absolutely speechless. You cannot possibly be serious. Also, in the thread you linked, you suggested logi ships should be able to rep from inside pos shields. Shocked



Of course hes not, he is trying to use a really bad example to try to prove a silly point.

But it ignores the fact that there are T1 logis that can easily be used in small gangs with little cost. The same cannot be said about boosts.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#103 - 2013-08-06 22:02:06 UTC
Diesel47 wrote:
Batelle wrote:
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
Batelle wrote:

Big gangs get to bring force multipliers because they have more ships. If the smaller gang feels they have enough ships for a command ship to be worth bringing, then they can still do so. This puts command ships on the same level as ewar or logistics. They all have to be on the field. I don't see what the problem is.

You could move logistics off the field, to buff small gang PvP. Not having to have vulnerable logistics ships on the field evens out the field between small gangs and blobs because small gangs can always have logi in a safe spot.

I am absolutely speechless. You cannot possibly be serious. Also, in the thread you linked, you suggested logi ships should be able to rep from inside pos shields. Shocked

Of course hes not, he is trying to use a really bad example to try to prove a silly point.

But it ignores the fact that there are T1 logis that can easily be used in small gangs with little cost. The same cannot be said about boosts.

Mmm, T1 command ships eh. Like battlecruiser boosters.

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Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#104 - 2013-08-06 22:09:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Kaarous Aldurald
Quote:
Either have a reasonable way for boosts to benefit all or remove them from the game.


I didn't have to read anything else you said after I saw this.

I find it incredulous that it hasn't occured to you that nearly the entire game isn't purely additive with increasing numbers? Buffs, ewar, alpha, logi, etc. Those are close to exponential improvements in their use.

Basically, friends are overpowered. There is no reasonable way for boosts to "benefit all", because it will NEVER happen mathematically. Leadership buffs provide more mathematical benefit based on how many ships are in fleet. If you have 4, and I have 5, then you are providing only 80% of the total improvement in stats that I am.

That's so fundamental to the entire concept, and so absurdly, grade-school simple, that I seriously cannot believe this eludes you. Numbers matter. You don't get to be the Rebel Alliance and win against overwhelming numbers because you're so super special awesome.

Don't like it, tough luck.

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One of ours, ten of theirs.

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Gul Amarr
Orange County Cruisers
#105 - 2013-08-06 22:52:36 UTC
Diesel47 wrote:




Then support the complete removal of gang links. Everyone wins.



Seeing them gone would be okay with me - I'd support it - at least as a temporary solution until CCP have made up a way how to force them on grid.

However, what I'd actually like to see would be a solution that actually favors small gangs against blobs, which is admittedly hard to do - maybe diminishing returns with increasing fleet size - yeah I know - blobs would just break down into smaller fleets, but at least they'd become harder to manage.
Vaju Enki
Secular Wisdom
#106 - 2013-08-06 22:54:57 UTC
OGB is going away. Deal with it.

The Tears Must Flow
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#107 - 2013-08-06 23:07:44 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Quote:
Either have a reasonable way for boosts to benefit all or remove them from the game.

I didn't have to read anything else you said after I saw this.

I find it incredulous that it hasn't occured to you that nearly the entire game isn't purely additive with increasing numbers? Buffs, ewar, alpha, logi, etc. Those are close to exponential improvements in their use.

Basically, friends are overpowered. There is no reasonable way for boosts to "benefit all", because it will NEVER happen mathematically. Leadership buffs provide more mathematical benefit based on how many ships are in fleet. If you have 4, and I have 5, then you are providing only 80% of the total improvement in stats that I am.

That's so fundamental to the entire concept, and so absurdly, grade-school simple, that I seriously cannot believe this eludes you. Numbers matter. You don't get to be the Rebel Alliance and win against overwhelming numbers because you're so super special awesome.

Don't like it, tough luck.

Fighting while ~outnumbered~

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grrlet
Leper Outcast Unclean
#108 - 2013-08-07 03:35:18 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Mmm, T1 command ships eh. Like battlecruiser boosters.


This pretty much makes this entire thread moot. Way to go Goon =)
Alexa de'Crux
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#109 - 2013-08-07 04:41:21 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:

A basic rule of PvP is that you pick the fights or you lose the fights.


Sun Tzu advocated that the victorious general is one that can force the enemy to fight on his terms.

To the OP:

Off-grid boosting means that the other fleet has no way to counter those boosts. If you have to protect your boosters in an active battlefield, your battle is that much more strategy and that much less 'hur hur you can't hurt us!'.
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#110 - 2013-08-07 04:45:24 UTC
Alexa de'Crux wrote:
Mara Rinn wrote:

A basic rule of PvP is that you pick the fights or you lose the fights.


Sun Tzu advocated that the victorious general is one that can force the enemy to fight on his terms.

To the OP:

Off-grid boosting means that the other fleet has no way to counter those boosts. If you have to protect your boosters in an active battlefield, your battle is that much more strategy and that much less 'hur hur you can't hurt us!'.


Sure they do its called sisters combat probes
Alexa de'Crux
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#111 - 2013-08-07 05:31:09 UTC
Onictus wrote:
Alexa de'Crux wrote:
Mara Rinn wrote:

A basic rule of PvP is that you pick the fights or you lose the fights.


Sun Tzu advocated that the victorious general is one that can force the enemy to fight on his terms.

To the OP:

Off-grid boosting means that the other fleet has no way to counter those boosts. If you have to protect your boosters in an active battlefield, your battle is that much more strategy and that much less 'hur hur you can't hurt us!'.


Sure they do its called sisters combat probes


So, now the fleet has to monitor an entire battlefield while simultaneously probing for ships sitting who-knows-where off-grid?

Easier to prioritize targets when you can see them.
Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#112 - 2013-08-07 05:38:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Mallak Azaria
Diesel47 wrote:
Small gang PvP (and by extension, Eve) is dying.


"If they don't fly fight-appropriate fleets... don't fight them? Blobs aren't hard to avoid."

Something is OP? Just don't fight it. Roll


Nerf friend-making

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Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#113 - 2013-08-07 06:12:18 UTC
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Diesel47 wrote:
Small gang PvP (and by extension, Eve) is dying.


"If they don't fly fight-appropriate fleets... don't fight them? Blobs aren't hard to avoid."

Something is OP? Just don't fight it. Roll


Nerf friend-making

Nah, I just didn't realize that a hallmark of true small gang PvP is to rush into any fight possible, no matter how outmatched you are, and expect to win it because your one person I-win button is worth more than the combined efforts of a whole bunch of people, not due to your own skill, but due to game mechanics.

Silly me.

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Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#114 - 2013-08-07 06:16:18 UTC
OP is a typical sissy, but more stupid.

.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#115 - 2013-08-07 06:18:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Alavaria Fera
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Diesel47 wrote:
Small gang PvP (and by extension, Eve) is dying.

"If they don't fly fight-appropriate fleets... don't fight them? Blobs aren't hard to avoid."

Something is OP? Just don't fight it. Roll

Nerf friend-making

Nah, I just didn't realize that a hallmark of true small gang PvP is to rush into any fight possible, no matter how outmatched you are, and expect to win it because your one person I-win button is worth more than the combined efforts of a whole bunch of people, not due to your own skill, but due to game mechanics.

Silly me.

Who was it who says something like "if you bring X I dock, if you bring Y I also dock.." ?

Ah. Makalu, Delve2012. See you in 319 station~

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baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#116 - 2013-08-07 06:25:20 UTC
I wonder why people think that small gangs are the only ones who use off grid boosting?
Tobias Hareka
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#117 - 2013-08-07 06:46:10 UTC
Onictus wrote:
Brewlar Kuvakei wrote:
What? Why can't the small gang have an an on grid booster too?


Because blap.


It requires some seriously big balls to go against 70+ Maels in Enyo and Damnation.
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#118 - 2013-08-07 07:53:53 UTC
The mechinism where a ship boosts other ships has always been absurd and always favoured the bigger gang. Why any game developer would think providing up to 30% extra stats to a gang of people who already have numbers superiority is a good idea is beyond me. Unfortunately they did.

You could argue the smaller gang could bring a gang booster too but that would only have the effect of equalizing or in other words removing ganglinks from the equation as if they didnt exist.

Absurd Icelandic logic. . .

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Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#119 - 2013-08-07 10:22:45 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
The mechinism where a ship boosts other ships has always been absurd and always favoured the bigger gang. Why any game developer would think providing up to 30% extra stats to a gang of people who already have numbers superiority is a good idea is beyond me. Unfortunately they did.

You could argue the smaller gang could bring a gang booster too but that would only have the effect of equalizing or in other words removing ganglinks from the equation as if they didnt exist.

Absurd Icelandic logic. . .


Exactly why low sec is littered with T3s boosting away in POSs.

Well used to be, maybe the pirates are space poor now, but I doubt it.
Private Pineapple
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#120 - 2013-08-07 11:03:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Private Pineapple
Diesel47 wrote:
Private Pineapple wrote:
Diesel47 wrote:
Here is the newest post: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=264773&find=unread

Currently: If a smaller gang wants to fight a bigger gang, they are already at a disadvantage because of numbers. When the bigger gang starts using ganglinks that boost their speed, web/scram range, and tank.. The small gang has no choice but to also do the same. This is done by T3 alts, off grid. Thus both sides are equal in terms of bonuses.


Proposed Idea: A smaller gang wants to fight a bigger gang, they jump in and realize the bigger gang has a massively tanked command ship giving off all types of bonuses. They no longer can use an off grid boost so they don't receive any bonuses to counter the bigger gang, The bigger gang effectively has more ships, goes faster, scrams further, and tanks harder than the smaller gang. How is that any better?

This is a big "**** you" to all small gang PvPers out there. Why buff the already too strong blobs?

How are you going to fix this CCP? Or are you just saying "if you want to win you have to blob"?


If this is honestly their best idea I'd rather have bonuses removed all together.


Giant hole in your logic: the bigger blob is more likely to have a OGB than a smaller blob... so in general, removing OGBs would benefit smaller blobs more than bigger blobs. On the other hand, OGBs provide even more bonuses to bigger blobs than smaller blobs because simply more ships get the bonuses... so removing OGBs hurts big blobs more than smaller blobs, which is good!



No it isn't.

After the change:

Every blob that had an OGB will now have a command ship.

Every small gang that could of had an OGB, can't anymore.

And you talk about logic. Roll


A common misconception, that simply having a command ship instead of a OGB will benefit fleets more. This is incorrect. OGBs, if the bigger blob is big enough (it usually is), will cause the fleet to have more offensive and defensive dps than one single command ship. The expression "it's almost like they have two extra ships!" is often used to describe this effect.

So having an extra command ship on the field is less worse for the smaller blob than the bigger blob benefiting from a OGB.

Now to the favorite part of this post... having a command ship instead of a OGB will benefit smaller fleets more Cool

.