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Why hi sec players will NOT move into low or null no matter how much you cry about it.

First post
Author
Vyl Vit
#21 - 2011-11-11 07:09:06 UTC
I find the OP uses some very specific language. And, I see some of the more vocal responses seem to brush over this as though one way of saying something is no different than another.

Firstly, Ms. Repose said nothing about wanting or not wanting to explore or engage in that aspect of the game. She says it's a "sucker's bet." Her premise is "the smart thing to do, given the circumstances that exist." I can take from that that she's not closed to the idea of low/null sec. I also notice she's in a faction corporation and has been all the time.

What I sense is the likely vs. unlikely outcomes in venturing a risk. Another post said to get into these areas one must be in a good corp, or have a group of good friends sure to be on at the same time. A lot of argument was launched against that...as is here in Ms. Repose's post, however they all had advice which included "you and a few other people."

What seems to be missing is a method for hi sec people, where everyone starts, to bridge that gap into these other areas. It's not like they don't want to do it. It's more like - the way things are it would be foolish to try, unless you have a lot of money to throw at a trial and error process. But, at the same time it's said you don't make much money in hi sec (comparatively speaking) so it's unlikely people in her position HAVE the money to toss at a venture such as this.

To infer there are not parasitic, and victimizing people just waiting for someone like Serene to set foot in these areas so they can jump on her, and ransom her for all she's worth, then pop her and loot her ship is ridiculous on the face of it. And, so the finality with which she speaks is more than just the opinion of one person.

This then gives rise to suspicion. If someone really knows the game, then they would know the position she (and a whole lot of other players) are in with regard to this. Ignoring the facts of the situation and egging her on, or insulting her for not doing it can only be read as baiting for another victim - ipso facto.

An additional problem is not knowing what's out there and how to go about doing things out there. In this case ignorance can't be bliss. Not many people can say they weren't helped along in some way to make such a move. Maybe it was some friends. Maybe it was a corp that turned to be friends. However it was, it's a big leap to go into null sec with the intent of establishing oneself alone and on a meager, short-time player's bankroll.

People who want to truly see those regions developed will either take these things into consideration and come up with some remedy, insist CCP juggle the conditions by monkeying with game mechanics, will just cry about it in the forum here hoping to goad or shame somebody into doing it, or are just looking for someone to kill and rob for grins.

As Ms. Repose says so well, intelligent people aren't stupid. So...what's the "community" going to do about it besides saying, "Tough luck sucker"? I know only fools take a sucker's bet.

Good post, Ms. Repose. Perhaps the answer can be just as definite.

Paradise is like where you are right now, only much, much better.

Kemuel
Kemuel Cartography Inc
#22 - 2011-11-11 07:09:23 UTC
Zagdul wrote:
Orien Ardent wrote:
Zagdul, you're not getting what the OP is saying, Ptraci got it.

A good question would be, what should change in nullsec player attitude to bring industrial players to null. Please keep in mind that null is designed to be in conflict. It would be unreasonable to expect that no one should attack freighters or the like.

So, a question to OP, what should null look like (including player attitude) for industrial players to be interested in going there?

Carebears need to harden up.

Null is better (in my opinion) to build in and achieve what you want. You can just about do everything in null you can do in empire. In most cases, it's safer because you know who your enemies are.

Honestly, I feel safer in nullsec than I do in empire. The problem is that there are too many people in the game who take on new pilots and tell them that 0.0 is this horrible disgusting palace and that evil people live there who's only purpose in life is to make your's, the new player, miserable. This is far from the truth and too many empire alliances/corps/institutions teach that null sec is horrible and that you shouldn't attempt to go if you have less than 20m SP and capitals and etc...

I've _NEVER_ lived in empire. When I had < 2 m SP, I was in null sec. I advise this to all pilots.



So how is one supposed to actually get involved with null sec when you know no one and are more likely to be scammed than recruited?

One just has to read this forum to see the general attitude towards "carebears" and "pubbies" and know that unless they know someone already in nullsec the likelyhood of doing anything productive out there is close to nil. Doing fleet ops or nul sec was the reason I bought the stupid 5 dollar re-sub... sadly it was a waste :(
Jenshae Chiroptera
#23 - 2011-11-11 07:17:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenshae Chiroptera
Teamosil wrote:
IMO wormholes offer the most opportunity to build for somebody who doesn't want to be in a big alliance. ...


They have some big draw backs.
POS is relatively easy to pop.
You can't make an outpost.
You need many people to have a hope of defending them
If you have many people sites get depleted, they are all poor and can't afford to defend it.

Only way is with a lot of stress and a static link to another worm hole, then hope that you don't leave anyone in one when you close the link. Pirate

Edit:
No reason I know that Outposts should be prohibited. It is not like they can control regions easily.

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.

Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
#24 - 2011-11-11 07:59:42 UTC
Well, that's an interesting twist to the debate.

I wish to point somethting: i do dwell in hisec and never ventur outside of it, yet I am a destroyer. I'm here to blow up stuff and so I run missions as it's the safest, better assured way to blow stuff.

You love how ships go boom? I make ships go boom most of the time i spend logged in. Accept mission, jump in, boom, boom, jump out, jump in, loot, jump out, complete mission, repeat. Fun, fun fun, until it grows boring.

Compared to that, nullsec is a bloody chore, and on top of it is populated by people whose idea of having fun is effing other people completely as long as it haves no consequences.

And frankly, i don't feel like sharing anything with them.

Roses are red / Violets are blue / I am an Alpha / And so it's you

Ned Black
Driders
#25 - 2011-11-11 08:01:01 UTC
The major reason(s) I left 0.0 was because of the never ending blob fests, backstabbing politics and all that crap. That and the ever present:

GET IN FLEET YOU MAGGOTS!!!

I liked ratting, plexing and occational small scale PvP... I did have that for a time... many years ago... but then it turned into something else. Nice big fleets with some nice encouragement:

IF YOU ARE NOT IN FLEETS 25/7 AND GET ON AT LEAST 2 BILLION KILLSMAILS/HOUR YOU WILL BE KICKED FROM CORP!!!

Yes, I know I am overdoing it, but the main thing is that we suddenly had to be in fleets constantly and unless we managed to get on X amount of killmails we would be booted for being slackers... and to me that is simply no fun at all. So I left and went into WH space. Suddenly I did get pretty much that which I liked before. Not exactly, but still close enough.

Unfortunatly things havent changed much in 0.0except for the fact that the old BS blobs have turned into supercap blobs and the old super boring POS bashings have changed into even bigger PITA sov structure bashes... It really is horrible to contemplate but I actually prefered the old POS bashings to what is now.
Shadow Lord77
Shadow Industries I
#26 - 2011-11-11 08:10:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Shadow Lord77
What is with you guys?! Do you actually believe this nonsense?

When Hilmar and the rest of CCP designed Eve. They designed it with high-sec in mind.

Do you understand that? It's not like they're pressuring you into going into null-sec space! High-sec is needed! There are a lot of items and goods that come from null-sec and go to high sec and the trade is necessary to complete the balance of goods and trade in Eve Online.

Do you understand? Are you going to keep up with this foolishness?

High-sec and null-sec relations, and inter-relations between null-sec alliances are some of the most interesting things about this game! There's no debating that. It's all there is to it.
MaiLina KaTar
Katar Corp
#27 - 2011-11-11 08:12:02 UTC
Serene Repose wrote:
stuff


Players aren't moving to null because the game doesn't entice them. It's got nothing to do with attitude.
At the end of the day players will do whatever the game lets them do and that's a good thing. It's up to game design to channel activity in such ways as to lead players in the desired direction.

Don't hate the player, hate the game.
Halcyon Ingenium
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#28 - 2011-11-11 08:45:07 UTC
Most of this great taste, less filling argument going on between null sec players and high sec players can be boiled down to, "HUUUURRRRRR STOP LIKING WHAT I DON'T LIKE, DUUUUUUURRRRRRR!"

Seriously, both high and null exist and serve a purpose. Both compliment each other and allow players to make choices about game play. Anyone on either side of this hurr-durr fest that can't deal with this simple fact and feels the need to rage about it needs to stop and contemplate their lives for a minute.

By the way, since we're already talking, do you want to buy a rifter? I've got the cheapest rifters in Metropolis. If you can find a cheaper rifter, buy it!

March rabbit
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#29 - 2011-11-11 08:54:09 UTC
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
No matter the changes, high sec people chose the safest.

You can take away their "ISK faucets"
Make huge taxes for staying in high sec too long
Split the trade hubs with low sec in between and you will just have four economies and four high sec regions. These players won't move from one of them to another.
You can stand on your head and play a piano upside down

... but you will never get those core high sec players to move. The only result you can get is for them to be sick of it and quit.

seems like the most possible return.... What?

Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:

Null sec does need work.

Firstly it needs:
- Covert POS in anomalies, cloak is disrupted every time someone leaves or enters it.
- Local removed.
- NPC reports removed.
- Player owned gates (need to disable or destroy someone else's to stop them jumping into your system)
Why does it need changes like this? So that small alliances and corps can survive out there and be a thorn in big alliance's sides.

problem is: some of "high-sec type" people is in 0.0 sov space already( "renters", "citizens", "pets", you name it) . This is because of NAPs, blues and big-lazy alliances. All of it make 0.0 boring (yes) and safer for casual player like me (i really think i'm high-sec style player but i found place in 0.0 for myself).
If you remove this safety i will need to decide if i still want to stay here or time has come. Removing local is the worst idea i have heard yet.

But who cares about me personally?
Well. I think i'm not only one who will move to high-sec if 0.0 will become more danger and empty.
So i suppose your ideas about 0.0 will move more people to high-sec Lol

The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"

Grath Telkin
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#30 - 2011-11-11 08:57:46 UTC
Serene Repose wrote:
Have you ever considered the reason most people don't go into null or low sec is because you're out there?

God I hope so

Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.

Ann133566
Doomheim
#31 - 2011-11-11 09:08:11 UTC
PvP in EVE? Don't make me laugh... The typical PvP fight in low sec is 4v1 usually against a small frig. Let's not kid ourselves, majority of players are just looking for easy wins rather than a "good fight". This is why suicide ganking and neutral RR and docking games happen. because it's the easy fight. Same reason why high-sec is more popular, because it's easier to do things there, less stress less worry. This is not a revalation and nobody who has played this game for a couple of years is going to shocked by the fact that this game is populated by lazy cowards.

By the way, don't pin your hopes on changing the high-sec mechanics in forcing care-bears to low sec. Not going to happen because they will leave the game is playing safe is no longer worthwhile.
Illyreia
Age of Ultron.
White Wolves Enterprise
#32 - 2011-11-11 09:19:49 UTC
No one should be forced to play this game a specific way, Eve is a sandbox and it allows players to do a wide variety of activities from missions to building an empire to scamming trillions of ISK. I have lived everywhere but lowsec in my 5 years of eve (wormholes are best ;) ) and quite frankly, for any of these regional communities to force another to ditch their preferred area and join them is incredibly short sighted.

Going back to the sandbox idea, it isn't up to CCP to do much more than provide sand. It is up to the players to build the castles (or smash them :P) Stop trying to call in daddy to make the other kids play with you.

Let it go, lest the highsec dwellers manage to out-whine you all and nullsec is all converted to 0.5+
Jenshae Chiroptera
#33 - 2011-11-11 09:28:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenshae Chiroptera
Via Shivon wrote:
they will - if high sec is gone one day Twisted

No - they will simply quit. The environment will be too dramatically changed and hostile to them. They will seek what they want elsewhere.

Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:
...I wish to point somethting: i do dwell in hisec and never ventur outside of it, yet I am a destroyer. ...

Just in case you are not messing with every one, I do believe they mean it in terms of creating ships, modules and such for players or destroying what they have.

March rabbit wrote:
... So i suppose your ideas about 0.0 will move more people to high-sec Lol


If people agree with your response, then they really are "null-bears". I live in a WH mostly and that is worse that null sec in many ways. With the high class systems, capitals ships can come into your system and all you have is a little POS or two and what ever ships you have.

There is a corp, "Narwhales ate my duck" famous for being a serious worm hole corp, they come in, set up POSes (plural!) then in the minimal amount of time they have cap ships built in there.

Your only option, usually is to detect the first of them and then get as many ships out of there as you can, closing the worm hole to another system behind you. Once they are in, they have scanning ships to keep finding their way in.

However, that is an exception. With some changes, null sec would still be safer, regions could be controlled but it would be possible for small corps and alliance to get a foot hold there independently.

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.

Via Shivon
#34 - 2011-11-11 09:31:54 UTC
they will - if high sec is gone one day Twisted
Akrasjel Lanate
Lanate Industries
#35 - 2011-11-11 09:32:36 UTC
This game is a SANDBOX stop bitching, people can be where ever they want High, Low or 0.0 Sec space.

CEO of Lanate Industries

Citizen of Solitude

Jada Maroo
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#36 - 2011-11-11 09:47:40 UTC
OP pretty much said it all. I would add this, though: many high sec players don't want to join 0.0 alliance just to slave for that alliance. I understand that 0.0 requires organization (and income) to function, but having to work for the alliance to pay their bills isn't very appealing to a lot of players. It changes Eve from a game to work.

And, yeah, you'll never find a biggie bunch of crybabies than some of those who PvP in low/null. "Waaa, no one comes over and let's us kill them!" They are the loudest whiners in Eve.

All that said I think one of the biggest obstacles for many people with null sec beyond what all's been talked about so far is the journey to get there through ghettos fills with gangs, rapists/Goons, and pirates. For those in 0.0 who really are trying to domesticate their piece of space, there almost needs to be a sort of transport system to get there and a method of policing available to the owners. Dunno how that would be done though.
Samillian
Angry Mustellid
Lost Obsession
#37 - 2011-11-11 09:48:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Samillian
Forcing people out of HiSec would be counter productive and more likely to force them out of EvE altogether. I see a lot written about Null (I suspect mainly by those who either never left HiSec or dipped a toe into Null and got burned in their first few days) about us only being interested in destruction but thats only half true, in order to maintain an Alliance and it's territory you require more than to cruise round popping reds and neuts.

You need good logistics (which can be a real challenge) and manufacturing, we build as much as we can on site, after all it costs between 150 and 250 ISK/m3 to ship stuff to and from Empire by jump freighter. You also have to have good intel channels which allow Home Defence fleets to defend your space and allow organised ratting and mining fleets to operate or allow you to travel from A to B without jumping blind into a hostile gang or camp. Let's not forget the amount of PI you do to maintain POS's and build SOV structures and the organisation that requires.

As I said there's a lot more to Null than the HiSec preconception that its all flying around killing everything not blue in sight although lets be honest you do that as well, territory must after all be kept secure. Null requires time, attention and a willingness to take some risk even when engaged in activities like ratting and travelling but it is well worth it.

Most of you won't or don't want to believe that and thats your choice but you are missing out on some interesting times. Try it, if you don't like it HiSec is still there.

NBSI shall be the whole of the Law

Serene Repose
#38 - 2011-11-11 10:41:33 UTC
MaiLina KaTar wrote:
Serene Repose wrote:
stuff


Players aren't moving to null because the game doesn't entice them. It's got nothing to do with attitude.
At the end of the day players will do whatever the game lets them do and that's a good thing. It's up to game design to channel activity in such ways as to lead players in the desired direction.

Don't hate the player, hate the game.

Reading comprehension problem...?

We must accommodate the idiocracy.

Serene Repose
#39 - 2011-11-11 10:42:19 UTC
Via Shivon wrote:
they will - if high sec is gone one day Twisted

Brilliant. Hi sec will never be gone, and I bet you felt tough typing that.

We must accommodate the idiocracy.

Serene Repose
#40 - 2011-11-11 10:43:06 UTC
Akrasjel Lanate wrote:
This game is a SANDBOX stop bitching, people can be where ever they want High, Low or 0.0 Sec space.
Stop reading threads that don't interest you. Your post was the first bitching post on the thread. Geez.

We must accommodate the idiocracy.