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Why aren't warp drives used as weapons?

Author
stoicfaux
#21 - 2013-08-03 19:19:45 UTC
McBustacrunk wrote:

For instance, in the Empyrean Age trailer, some guy crashes a Nyx into a station at subwarp speeds, but the station survives relatively intact. If the guy in the Nyx had simply kept his warp drive on for an infinitesimal fraction of a second longer, then the station would have been literally and completely obliterated. Hell, someone could just strap a warp drive onto a missile and destroy any ship that has a large gravity field in one hit. I mean, even a frigate is capable of destroying a planet if it was travelling at a fraction of the speed of light. Warp drive missiles would pretty much obsolete every rule of conventional warfare in EVE, expanding maximum ranges from kilometers to solar systems.

Not really. The Nyx ram was successfully only because the station's shield in that section was sabotaged. Otherwise the Nyx would have bounced off.

Since ships bounce off of each other and off of objects in EVE, it implies that EVE ships are effectively immune to traditional kinetic kill weapons.

As for EVE kinetic damage ammo/weapons, given that we can fire through solid objects, the very limited weapons ranges, and the apparently instantaneous travel speed of hybrids and projectiles, then we can infer that EVE "kinetic" weapons aren't the solid-object-moving-very-very-fast that we think of in the real world. Maybe, instead, EVE weapons use mini-warp tunnels to travel to their target and do damage in some fashion other than via physical impacts and normal space explosions.

Quote:
TL;DR - Why can't ships warp into planets, stations, or other ships?

Magic.

When it comes to the science of EVE, EVE puts the fiction in "science fiction" while managing to lose most of the science.

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.

Xavier Higdon
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#22 - 2013-08-03 20:11:06 UTC
stoicfaux wrote:
McBustacrunk wrote:

For instance, in the Empyrean Age trailer, some guy crashes a Nyx into a station at subwarp speeds, but the station survives relatively intact. If the guy in the Nyx had simply kept his warp drive on for an infinitesimal fraction of a second longer, then the station would have been literally and completely obliterated. Hell, someone could just strap a warp drive onto a missile and destroy any ship that has a large gravity field in one hit. I mean, even a frigate is capable of destroying a planet if it was travelling at a fraction of the speed of light. Warp drive missiles would pretty much obsolete every rule of conventional warfare in EVE, expanding maximum ranges from kilometers to solar systems.

Not really. The Nyx ram was successfully only because the station's shield in that section was sabotaged. Otherwise the Nyx would have bounced off.

Since ships bounce off of each other and off of objects in EVE, it implies that EVE ships are effectively immune to traditional kinetic kill weapons.

As for EVE kinetic damage ammo/weapons, given that we can fire through solid objects, the very limited weapons ranges, and the apparently instantaneous travel speed of hybrids and projectiles, then we can infer that EVE "kinetic" weapons aren't the solid-object-moving-very-very-fast that we think of in the real world. Maybe, instead, EVE weapons use mini-warp tunnels to travel to their target and do damage in some fashion other than via physical impacts and normal space explosions.

Quote:
TL;DR - Why can't ships warp into planets, stations, or other ships?

Magic.

When it comes to the science of EVE, EVE puts the fiction in "science fiction" while managing to lose most of the science.


Actually the science is there alongside the fiction. It's not as prevalent here as it was in the Mass Effect games, but that's because those games were more akin to a story being told about past events. That story was completed before we ever picked up a controller, and as such the creators could outline rather strict rules to the sciences of the ME universe. They created Eezo to explain most of it, and they did an amazing job with making it realistic. CCP on the other hand has to keep the science more hand-wavey because they don't know where the story goes. If they decided to stop development after the next expansions we'd probably get more concrete facts on how and why the EvE universe works the way it does. But as it is they can't be too specific because they might need to change things.
Boomhaur
#23 - 2013-08-03 22:42:16 UTC
Quite simple really your the pilot of your ship in a pod who will cheat their way out of death via clone. But your co-pilot and ships crew are not so lucky and don't feel suicidal. So they refuse any and all orders concerning warping into objects to make them go boom.

Welcome to Eve. Everyone here is an Evil Sick Sadistic Bastard who is out to get you. Anyone who tells you otherwise is either trying to scam you or use you.

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#24 - 2013-08-03 22:44:35 UTC
Because there are no Kzinti in the game, so their lesson was never learned. Duh.
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#25 - 2013-08-03 23:06:18 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Because there are no Kzinti in the game, so their lesson was never learned. Duh.



Warp drive is reactionless (possibly) Blink

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#26 - 2013-08-03 23:28:34 UTC
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Because there are no Kzinti in the game, so their lesson was never learned. Duh.

Warp drive is reactionless (possibly) Blink

Lies! Have you ever seen the reactions when a target just warps away? P
Diesel47
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#27 - 2013-08-03 23:39:20 UTC
Therese Amsel wrote:
That's not how warp drives work, nothing can travel faster than the speed of light.



Maybe, but yes things can travel faster than light.
Ydnari
Estrale Frontiers
#28 - 2013-08-03 23:42:42 UTC
Because of falcon.

--

Hessian Arcturus
Doomheim
#29 - 2013-08-04 00:33:37 UTC
Therese Amsel wrote:
That's not how warp drives work, nothing can travel faster than the speed of light.


Kitty Bear wrote:
Therese Amsel wrote:
That's not how warp drives work, nothing we know of yet can travel faster than the speed of light.



fixed


I agree with you fixing this...

Neutrinos travel at precicely the speed of light. So for all we know there's some particle out there that may travel faster.

To outright state that nothing travels faster than light without proof to your cause is silly. The special theory of relativity states theory in it's title for a reason.

It's human nature to want to explore. To find your line and go beyond it. The only limit, is the one you set yourself.

Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#30 - 2013-08-04 00:59:56 UTC
The Theory of Relativity may only be a theory. But it's one which has, so far, survived all observational data. So to discount it would be, umm, silly.


Relativistic physics are somewhat counter intuitive. The theory states (layman's terms. I'm not a physicist):
Nothing travels faster than the speed of light, in any reference frame (i.e. no matter that speed you're travelling at, if you measure the speed of light, you'll get the same value. and nothing can move faster than that)

This leads to a couple of interesting effects:
As you get closer to the speed of light, Time passes more slowly for you. (Time Dilation) (it has to, so when you shine a torch, the light doesn't travel faster than any other light)
As you get closer to the speed of light, distance contracts for you.


These do apply at lower speeds, though it's not particularly noticeable. It is enough to be measured though.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter

Hessian Arcturus
Doomheim
#31 - 2013-08-04 01:24:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Hessian Arcturus
Steve Ronuken wrote:
The Theory of Relativity may only be a theory. But it's one which has, so far, survived all observational data. So to discount it would be, umm, silly.


Relativistic physics are somewhat counter intuitive. The theory states (layman's terms. I'm not a physicist):
Nothing travels faster than the speed of light, in any reference frame (i.e. no matter that speed you're travelling at, if you measure the speed of light, you'll get the same value. and nothing can move faster than that)

This leads to a couple of interesting effects:
As you get closer to the speed of light, Time passes more slowly for you. (Time Dilation) (it has to, so when you shine a torch, the light doesn't travel faster than any other light)
As you get closer to the speed of light, distance contracts for you.


These do apply at lower speeds, though it's not particularly noticeable. It is enough to be measured though.


You missunderstood my point Smile
I did not discount the theory of relativity, it has paved the way for modern scientific advancement and the majority of physics theories as of late. What I was stating is that for all we know some particle that we cannot observe at our current time may be able to surpass lightspeed.

For example, the special theory of relativity states that a particle, one which has rest mass, with subluminal velocity needs an infinate amount of energy to accelerate to, and surpass the speed of light. However the theory does not forbid the existence of particles that travel faster than light at all times such as tachyonic particle, which, while purely a hypothetical particle, always moves faster than light.

No experiments have confirmed this particle as of yet. One of the reasons is due to the particle always travelling at post lightspeed, therefore we would not see it coming. However experiments have been done and are ongoing, that search for the illusive particle, which shows that not all physicist agree with Einsteins theory.

Another theory that dissagrees with the theory is M Theory (a theory that elaborates on string theory). But thats complete codswallop. (If there is any M Theorists reading this, I'm only kidding, as an Astrophysicist myself I tent to dissagree with the theory, but thats another story).

But anyway, back to my original point, one cannot just assume that nothing travels faster than light. Theory dictates that most physics follows a certain set of rules that dissallows it. However, other theories do allow for it.

EDIT: Apologies, my spelling was terrible.
EDIT 2: Apoligies again, spelling was still terrible.
EDIT 3: Yeah it's 0233hours, I'm going to go to bed now. My spelling is just...

It's human nature to want to explore. To find your line and go beyond it. The only limit, is the one you set yourself.

Kitty Bear
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#32 - 2013-08-04 01:43:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Kitty Bear
Steve Ronuken wrote:
The Theory of Relativity may only be a theory. But it's one which has, so far, survived all observational data. So to discount it would be, umm, silly.


Relativistic physics are somewhat counter intuitive. The theory states (layman's terms. I'm not a physicist):
Nothing travels faster than the speed of light, in any reference frame (i.e. no matter that speed you're travelling at, if you measure the speed of light, you'll get the same value. and nothing can move faster than that)

This leads to a couple of interesting effects:
As you get closer to the speed of light, Time passes more slowly for you. (Time Dilation) (it has to, so when you shine a torch, the light doesn't travel faster than any other light)
As you get closer to the speed of light, distance contracts for you.


These do apply at lower speeds, though it's not particularly noticeable. It is enough to be measured though.


just because current scientific practices and knowledge cannot prove Einstein wrong does not mean that he is correct..

Newton was supposedly accredited with solving the big questions ... time passed and the aformentioned Einstein said 'hello, he was wrong about this'

some smart git, at some point, is going to do exactly the same to Einstein.


[edit]
at his time, newtons theories stood up to scientific questioning
then people noticed there were irregularities in the working of his theory and the actual orbital period of mercury

einsteins theories also currently fail when applied to black holes
they predict them, but don't explain them
we have no current scientific explanation for black holes, or for what exactly happened a few billionths of a millisecond after 'stuff appeared'

therefore Einstein cannot have been totally correct in his thinking or maths, if he was, we'd have those 2 answers
Jonathan Peak
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#33 - 2013-08-04 03:20:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonathan Peak
We know Einstein's relativity isn't the entire picture, and the problem of black hole physics is one reason why. However, SR and GR have stood up to intense experimental scrutiny. The odds of new data completely overthrowing his ideas at this point are very slim, but as with any scientific theory, it can never be absolutely proven. Ideas held as scientific fact have been tossed out before, of course, but as our understanding grows, the probability that we are totally wrong about the universe lessens. Isaac Asimov actually wrote a good piece on this, The Relativity of Wrong.

Anyway, the idea in SR isn't that "nothing can travel faster than light." Rather, particles with non-zero rest masses can never be accelerated to the speed of light, as the energy required for further acceleration increases without bound as a particle's velocity approaches c (due to that pesky Lorentz factor, 1/sqrt(1-(v/c)^2), which approaches infinity as v goes to c). A good overview of all this (which requires very little formal scientific or mathematical training) is Wikipedia's Introduction to Special Relativity. There's also an Introduction to General Relativity, which really isn't much more advanced, for any interested readers.

There are hypothetical particles called tachyons which *always* travel faster than c and would require "infinite energy" to decelerate to c. However, there is no real evidence tachyons exist, and efforts to describe their properties have led to various problems.

In addition, certain effects have been determined to propagate faster than c (as an example, quantum tunneling), but as far as I know, as far as we know, there's no way to use these phenomena to transmit information, which protects causality (not that it's necessarily impossible to violate causality--we simply take it as given that causality is a property of the universe, the absence of which leads to nonsense).

To respond to the OP, although there's a noticeable acceleration and deceleration during warp travel, based on how it apparently works, I'd expect a ship abruptly thrown out of warp to have zero velocity or, at most, the ship's top subluminal velocity. While a ship in warp does travel between points in space faster than a beam of light would, locally the ship is not (or doesn't seem to be) traveling at FTL speeds. How does this relate to micro warp drives? I don't know, especially since the velocities attained using MWD's are laughably small, so I'm not sure why warp is required at all.

In general, though, the mechanics of EVE's universe bear very little resemblance to the mechanics of our real one, so any particular strange phenomenon should just be chalked up to something technobabbly.

Edit: Apologies for duplicating some of the points made in Hessian Arcturus' post. I somehow didn't see it until after posting myself.
Oenark Padelain
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#34 - 2013-08-04 08:52:23 UTC
Calculation for kinetic energy is Ek=1/2mv^2. That is, half mass times velocity squared. In this case, you're talking about velocity, but you have to remember the warp drive warps space, not actually increasing the speed of the craft. Velocity remains constant, but the space between the object is shortened, or 'warped', giving the illusion of increased speeds.

You don't need special relativity to solve this, just plain high school physics.
Grimpak
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#35 - 2013-08-04 11:27:34 UTC
Diesel47 wrote:
Therese Amsel wrote:
That's not how warp drives work, nothing can travel faster than the speed of light.



Maybe, but yes things can travel faster than light.


Lore says that ships in EVE aren't actually travelling faster than light, they are just going thru space-time fabric "outside" of it, in a perfect-vacuum bubble.

get a bed sheet, strech it. that's the space-time fabric where "you" are, as in, in the fabric itself.
get a sphere, and roll it through the bed sheet.
that's EVE's warp mechanic.

[img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]

[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#36 - 2013-08-04 12:38:08 UTC
…also, I'd be remiss not to post this in every and all threads where relativity comes up. P
Aidan Brooder
Dynasphere Ltd.
#37 - 2013-08-04 12:51:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Aidan Brooder
Darth Peaches wrote:
Because the flux capacitors are cannot stay properly aligned to the power relays in order to transfer the energy of the warp to the opposing ship. However, if you could somehow pull it off, the energy of the warp would simply corrupt the enemy ship rather than destroy it, thus creating a chaos ship which of course would require us sending in a squad of the Emperor's finest in order to cleanse if of its heresies against the God Emperor.


The Raven Guard, as usual at the service of the Ordo Haereticus...Twisted
We'll accept no surrender terms and take no prisoners.

Now, where is this warp bomber and the infernal baseball you were talking about?

Blog: http://aidanbrooder.wordpress.com My EVE Playlist on YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLSNuHY7z8n1q1BdLvW2verIfH8vvWtz_x

Dark Drifter
Sons of Seyllin
Pirate Lords of War
#38 - 2013-08-04 14:56:30 UTC
warp travle is explained in detail on the EVE wiki, it used to be in a page linked directly from the old EVE main page. it was called back story or some thing like that.

-warping to a beacon is the only safe way for a ships to travel as blind warping may put you inside a planet or worse the sun.
-warp drives generally require an already present gravity well namely a SUN and planets (in EVEs case).
-the warp drive will compress the gravity well enough to push she ship in to warp.
-in warp your ships engines are basically idling as they are not needed once in a warp state. hence when you exit warp your ship will settle to 0ms
-travel inside warp is not straight its a curved path through a system that appears straight because you are riding on a compression wave.
Snezz Boscone
Solarmark
Stellarium Alliance
#39 - 2013-08-07 03:35:13 UTC
Kitty Bear wrote:
Therese Amsel wrote:
That's not how warp drives work, nothing we know of yet can travel faster than the speed of light.



fixed


the Alcubierre warp drive can in theory ... Eve warp bubbles seem to use this concept loosely. Nasa has actually begun investigating this concept... something about a field of massless particles that isnt subject to the mass / energy restrictions that party pooper Einstein came up with.
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