Player Features and Ideas Discussion

Hey, all you people quoting Dvla? You do know there's this great thing you can do that doesn't involve spamming a huge wall of text right? You can make it a lot easier on everyone by following these simple steps.

1: like his post. I get it, we all like his post, that's great. Doesn't mean it has to be on every page multiple times in its entirity.

2: Quote him. Seems like you all have this part down pat.

3: trim the quote. Find something in particular you really like out of his post. Perhaps write a TL;DR.

4: Right click the post number. Click on "Copy link location". From here, hyperlink something in your thread.

Here, I'll make an example so that none of you have to actually bother on your own.


Here's a post by Dvla that really conveys a lot of my opinions on this matter:


TL;DR:
Add buffer bonuses to more CS's to provide racial choice for tanky command, remove Command Processors, make at least one CS per race approximately as tanky as the Damnation.

There, and it only takes about 4 or 5 extra lines per page, as opposed to 6 paragraphs.

Also, I disagree with one point of Dvla's. This in particular:



I agree that every race should have a choice of at least one for fleet work. But I do also think one should be viable for squad-wing sized gang warfare. That doesn't just mean brick tanking it to have 1m EHP and tons of sustain against a large hostile fleet. It means running with sometimes only even 1 logi, perhaps having to take some of the tank on itself, and having to contribute to the fight as well. Sometimes only bringing 2 or 3 links so it can at least pull its weight and apply some much needed damage at the small scale.

It really must be remembered that not everything is null blob warfare. Some people just want to get together a group of friends and go for a roam, and in this present iteration these are at least ships that are effective at this sort of thing. Now all they need to do is specialize one per race for massive blob warfare, because I will freely admit that only the Damnation really holds out against headshots.

If you want to do something other than cookie cutter for the tanking bonuses. Why not swap some of those local booster bonuses to bonuses to remote reps received?

I understand a lot of folks are complaining about how they use the command ships trying to protect them for that role. IE mission runners and the like, but they're just using those ships in that role because they go the most dps or tank or whatever. I'd really like to see the command ships be viable as both small or large fleet command ships. Able to power their links, call targets, and maneuver plus survive. If that means nerfing the dps to the ground, do it.. the role of the command ship is not to have the best dps on the field.

Going through proposed changes again I see where CCP is going to. They like the idea of combat command ships like Sleipnir, Astarte etc., but they also feel that other CS must be boosted as well. So general idea is to have TWO similar platforms for each race but with different damage mods. They are trying to balance DPS/TANK on those ships by Increasing DPS on Claymore for example and Increasing tank on Sleipnir but slightly nerfing it's DPS. I have to say that no matter how you buff it, Claymore will never reach same level in PVP and DPS projection as Sleipnir does, nor will Damnation do.

My assumption is that DPS coming from Sleipnir after patch will more or less be around 600 at best, but it's tanking will be booster for around 25%. I have to admit that I am not fan of such approach. Currently combat command ships are very useful in small scale/solo PVP. They have outstanding DPS and decent tank which allows small group of people brawl with a larger one. I am afraid that in attempt to fix damnation CCP will screw absolution and it's role in PVP now, same will happen to other ships. If you will take a close look at Astarte/EOS you will see that EOS will be very nice solo brawler is it used to be back in the days, but Astarte will become a former shadow if itself. Close-range-in-your-face high dps brawler will be gone :(
I would not say anything about NH/Vulture. After many attempts I was unable to make NH a decent solo boat. Fitting issues on that ship are huge. NH is the one which suffers most from fitting point of view.

As I already mentioned in my post before, why cannot we split roles on these ships? For example Thorax hull has 2 T2 versions that have completely different roles, price for those modifications are different as well. Why cannot we apply same formula to Command ships?
Let's take Prophecy hull and split T2 version of it for different roles:
- Damnation - Command Ship with gang links. Might even give them some utility advantage, like small bonus to racial e-war system.
- Absolution - Heavy Assault Battlecruiser or whatever you prefer.
Tweak production cost for those T2 hulls. They will be expensive but both will justify that price tag. This will create even wider variety of fleet comps for small gangs and large fleets (wonder how it will look like to field 100 Sleipnirs or Absos).

Ninja edit:

This fight perfectly demonstrates how good a group of CS can be. Killmail is missing way more maelstroms on it since they ran, but still. Decreasing damage on those ships will be sad thing to happen.

I would also add some tanking issues here. Sleipnir is most powerful solo CS these days due to very good balance between tank and DPS. With Dual ASB fit (most common fit these days) and without any links that ship can tank a significant amount of damage while melting enemy ships. It requires some shiny mods and fitting implants. That ship with said fitting justifies a long training curve it has (got lvl 5 skills) and ISK investment. I personally fly that ship and I clearly see difference between it and Astarte or Abso for example. Removing gun turrets on those ships will simple make them more of a useless ship for solo/small gang. I have a feeling that after such nerf on damage navy versions of those ships will be even better and role of Combat command ship will be gone...

So why don't you leave high slots on Astarte, Absolution, Sleipnir, Nighthawk as they are now and simply give them ability to fit 3 links? Pilots will drop guns and fit gang links if it will be required.

Despite the fact you are buffing local armor reps, I still stand by my position that Gallente Command ships should not have this bonus.

1. Gallente has less low slots
2. A small gang is more than enough to burn through local armor RR, even with drugs and boosts.
3. Gallente does not have the speed nor the weaponry to maintain range.
4. A bonus that is much less useful than Resists, even with resist reduction. I would take a 4% resist bonus over a 7.5-10% bonus to Local Reps Any Day for Armor.


Also Astarte and Sleipnir should maintain the same DPS they have now, I see no reason why they should be less than Navy BC's.

After all T2 is supposed to be superior to regular faction navy ships.

The Nighthawk still has that ******** 5 midslot setup and still lacks powergrid. You got rid of the kinetic damage for an all damage type bonus for the drake, so make it the same for the Nighthawk. FIX IT! !

Still local rep bonus

I've never flown in a big fleet so far, but even i can see a lot of truth in that. So why can't the devs, who should easily be able to see the big picture?

Why do ALL of the command ships have to be viable for solo (orsmall scale) activity?
The orca isn't and I've seen noone complaining about the mining command ship not being a solo miner.

Likewise if the big fleet command ships could only do two things, survive and give good bonuses, I doubt you would see people complaining heavily - as long as there is an alternative for small scale command, which shouldn't be that hard to accomplish with TWO command ships per race.



Better at their special role. I find it hard to understand that there are still people who don't get this.

There can be no doubt that even the worst command ship is better at giving link bonuses than any navy BC.
All it needs now is for the devs to realize that part of giving bonuses is staying alive to give those bonuses.

Seeing as bonuses are a really essential part of large fleets that's the choice you have to make: am I a combative or am I a fleet assister. And with the changes in obtaining T2 mind links it makes it easier to get (and risk) the ships/clones on grid with the fleet. You can still fight in your CS even though you may not be as strong in the dps category as you want to be but that's the whole point of making these choices.

And why do we need COMMAND ships for that?
Even in a bigger small scale roaming gang, we're probably looking at 3 command ships for bonuses (wing + 2 squads?).

In order to not lose DPS for bringing command ships in their respective roles, they need somewhat competitive DPS and of course they need a bit better survivability to not be no-brains primary.

Somewhat competitive does NOT mean that it should be the best option to replace all regular DPS (i.e. in their size BCs and even navy BCs) with COMMAND ships. An all-command fleet should ideally perform significantly worse than a mixed fleet with only the required number of command ships.

Anything else would clearly signal that the command ship is not a T2 ship (a.k.a. tailored towards a special role) but simply an improvement over the regular BC - which is what navy or pirate are for, not T2 specialisations.


EDIT: Just to clarify, this counts for small scale command ships, I still agree that big fleet command ships need even less DPS and more survivability. Thus the need for 2 different command ships.

All changes are acceptable,

but theres one thing that doesnt allow me to sleep,

the CS ship models,

PLEASE either make NEW ONES (dont be lazy bastards as with new pretty 3d login screens for each expansion) or keep them like now. Sleipnir in a cane hull would make me puke,

Gallente command ships will never find their way into a fleet until:

1. the ridiculous local repair bonus is replaced with a resistance bonus
2. the (again ridiculous) explosive hole is filled.

In comparison with a resistance bonus, a local repair bonus is *always* a nerf. If you are insistent on keeping it (in the face of the entire player base), the ships with a local rep bonus should have some other compensating strength, like extra speed or significantly higher damage output, or (say) double the hull hit points.

Here is a list of situations where resistance bonuses are better:
1. fleet combat
2. small gangs
3. solo combat
4. when you're being neuted
5. when you're buffer fitted
6. When you're being alpha'd
7. when you don't have enough mid slots to fit 2 cap boosters in order to keep up with dual/triple repairers required to stay alive (i.e. both Gallente command ships)

Here is a list of situations where a local repair bonus is better:
0. none at all

The local repair mechanic is broken and unfixable. This is acceptable in (say) a hyperion because it's fun to chuck it into a gatecamp and see how long it lasts. It's completely unacceptable on a command ship.

Please, finally, concede the point - allow us to actually use the astarte and the Eos.