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Planetary Command Centres - make them killable, like everything else
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Cruthensis
Xeno Tech Corp
Black Cartel.
#21 - 2013-08-02 11:47:11 UTC
HiddenPorpoise wrote:

It doesn't move itself to your market of choice. I've been decloaked over enough times to assure you that there is a risk if you're not in high sec


You make my point for me, then. It's not risk free passive ISK generation. Your assets (hauling ship + cargo) are at risk at least some of the time and your risk may scale with the value of your cargo (assuming a scannable setup). PI includes none of this.
HiddenPorpoise
Jarlhettur's Drop
United Federation of Conifers
#22 - 2013-08-02 11:51:41 UTC
That PI outside highsec has inherent risks proves that PI is risk free? On the same token are things in NPC stations too safe then, just sitting around. We should be able to blow up stuff if no one is there to defend it.
Sipphakta en Gravonere
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#23 - 2013-08-02 11:54:53 UTC
Cruthensis wrote:
You make my point for me, then. It's not risk free passive ISK generation. Your assets (hauling ship + cargo) are at risk at least some of the time and your risk may scale with the value of your cargo (assuming a scannable setup). PI includes none of this.


I didn't know that Customs Offices could magically beam the PI goods to Jita 4-4. Good to know, I always had to collect the stuff in haulers and ship it through null and lowsec to the market.
Cruthensis
Xeno Tech Corp
Black Cartel.
#24 - 2013-08-02 12:15:58 UTC
HiddenPorpoise wrote:
That PI outside highsec has inherent risks proves that PI is risk free? On the same token are things in NPC stations too safe then, just sitting around. We should be able to blow up stuff if no one is there to defend it.


I'll take your points in order.

PI everywhere has associated with it the same risks associated with hauling everywhere. But only associated with it. The PI infrastructure itself, once placed, is completely invulnerable, forever.

I've mentioned possible timing mechanic a couple of posts back. I would definitely want there to be opportunity to defend one's PI assets when attacked (I do make explicit mention of this in the OP - did anyone read it all?)
Cruthensis
Xeno Tech Corp
Black Cartel.
#25 - 2013-08-02 12:32:22 UTC
Sipphakta en Gravonere wrote:
I didn't know that Customs Offices could magically beam the PI goods to Jita 4-4. Good to know, I always had to collect the stuff in haulers and ship it through null and lowsec to the market.


There are other places to sell than Jita 4-4. You might not get as high as the Jita price (you may even do better though), but you can still sell it. It's still printing money just fine. At a minimum, in hi-sec, you can haul planet > station and set up a cheap enough sell order. You're still printing money not as fast as you might, but still printing. The only thing that might stop you is a wardec, but they would have to be Olympian multi-station and CO campers to adversely affect it. Heck, you could just reconfigure for some more storage and ride it out. Your cheap ISK printers will be safe as houses throughout. Your investment in a fully upgraded CC - never at risk, no matter what.

Is that Eve? Really?

Collecting the stuff in haulers and shipping it is hauling. Of course there is risk in hauling and yes, hauling (at the very least from planet to station) is an inevitable part of PI. Hauling through null and lo is your choice, however.

It's not especially difficult to be very close to risk free when collecting PI goods even in null and lo. You can risk a T1 hauler and a cheap clone. You can align to station and grab the haul from CO at the last moment. You can scout. You can wait. You can set up courier contracts, or just contract to your jump-freighter alt or corpie. But through all of this, the PI churns on regardless, printing money. Unshootable. Invulnerable. Forever. And all of this despite the fact that it's sitting on a planet, in a game world where "planetary bombardment" is a thing. It doesn't sit right with me, clearly.
Hopelesshobo
Hoboland
#26 - 2013-08-02 14:38:34 UTC
This just sounds like more structure grinding to get placed into the game...

You can already find people's planets and if you are attempting to lock down a system, you can add everyone people to your contacts with a note saying what planet they are on. So as far as the probes are concerned, I think it would make it too easy, especially since when you own the POCO's you can just look at your tax logs to determine who is paying you to use your planets.

In terms of the planetary bombardment deal on PI structures, you could argue that because you do not have a ground force lazing the target, and giving you readings on the atmosphere from the ground level, the pilots of New Eden can not accurately fire on planetary structures.

Lowering the average to make you look better since 2012.
Cruthensis
Xeno Tech Corp
Black Cartel.
#27 - 2013-08-02 15:28:57 UTC
Hopelesshobo wrote:
This just sounds like more structure grinding to get placed into the game...

You can already find people's planets and if you are attempting to lock down a system, you can add everyone people to your contacts with a note saying what planet they are on. So as far as the probes are concerned, I think it would make it too easy, especially since when you own the POCO's you can just look at your tax logs to determine who is paying you to use your planets.

In terms of the planetary bombardment deal on PI structures, you could argue that because you do not have a ground force lazing the target, and giving you readings on the atmosphere from the ground level, the pilots of New Eden can not accurately fire on planetary structures.


I wouldn't want or expect it to be too grindy - just done in a way to provide additional avenues for ship death and havoc to occur.

-Probes - fine. As we can seek them out anyway, I'd say leave it at that.

Your last paragraph: if we're going to go RP about it ... a cloaked hauler halfway across the solar system can launch and place the CC with total accuracy on the planet surface, but a specially-equipped bombardment ship in orbit of the planet can't deliver munitions onto that same location. Congruent story bro?
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#28 - 2013-08-02 21:37:02 UTC
Cruthensis wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:
Why, exactly, should my stuff be able to be destroyed while I am not logged in, with absolutely zero chance of defending it?


Just to turn that on its head for a moment: Why, exactly, should your stuff be able to print money for you while you are not logged in, with absolutely zero chance of anyone destroying it?

(I accept that trading, research and manufacturing all do this too, but PI isn't those things. It takes place outside of the station, on planets. Planetary bombardment is officially a thing. Nobody gets to earn ISK mining or ratting whilst not logged in either and whilst doing those things, they may get their ISK printing machine blown up.)



Given that literally every other asset in space comes with things like reinforcement timers to actually give you a hope in hell of defending your stuff, explain why PI structures should be any different. A research, reaction or mining POS can bring in plenty of ISK, so can a POCO. These all come with reinforcement timers. As do sov structures and outposts.

Also, PI doesn't print ISK. It's a sink (in highsec at least), not a faucet. learn what the terms actually mean before you throw them around.

An, on top of that, fixed RF timers are worthless. Everything else can be timed so that it comes out more or less at a time you can actually defend it, a fixed timer offers none of that. It actually works against people who put more ISK and SP into their PI setups.
ninjaholic
Tactical Feed.
Pandemic Horde
#29 - 2013-08-02 22:15:35 UTC
Cruthensis wrote:
Right now, PI builds are invulnerable to attack.
I thought that was the point of Dust 514? Noobs on the PSN blowing up my ****?

Support Eve's own built-in Battle-Recorder!
Kara Corvinus
The Empyrean Order
#30 - 2013-08-02 22:16:23 UTC
i thought the original idea of dust was the players could run around the ps3 and blow these things up for us?
Kara Corvinus
The Empyrean Order
#31 - 2013-08-02 22:16:43 UTC
ninjaholic wrote:
Cruthensis wrote:
Right now, PI builds are invulnerable to attack.
I thought that was the point of Dust 514? Noobs on the PSN blowing up my ****?


jynx!
Cruthensis
Xeno Tech Corp
Black Cartel.
#32 - 2013-08-03 21:01:00 UTC
Danika Princip wrote:
Also, PI doesn't print ISK. It's a sink (in highsec at least), not a faucet. learn what the terms actually mean before you throw them around.


Are you saying that PI in hi-sec costs players more to do than they can make selling the products. Well, f*ck me backwards, who on earth would bother with that?!

(^ sarcasm. It's definitely a faucet after the initial investment pays off, so long as there's a market to sell to. Takes longer in hi-sec, obviously and may not happen if one constantly rebuilds extractors or factories.)
Cruthensis
Xeno Tech Corp
Black Cartel.
#33 - 2013-08-03 21:09:20 UTC
Danika Princip wrote:

Given that literally every other asset in space comes with things like reinforcement timers to actually give you a hope in hell of defending your stuff, explain why PI structures should be any different.


Have you got something against actually reading my posts? I think RF timers would be a great idea, but would probably want to see the investment curve in CC upgrades ramp up a bit steeper along with their productivity and defence.
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#34 - 2013-08-03 21:46:07 UTC
Cruthensis wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:
Also, PI doesn't print ISK. It's a sink (in highsec at least), not a faucet. learn what the terms actually mean before you throw them around.


Are you saying that PI in hi-sec costs players more to do than they can make selling the products. Well, f*ck me backwards, who on earth would bother with that?!

(^ sarcasm. It's definitely a faucet after the initial investment pays off, so long as there's a market to sell to. Takes longer in hi-sec, obviously and may not happen if one constantly rebuilds extractors or factories.)



And you do not know what the terms actually mean.

ISK sink = something that removes ISK from the game, like highsec poco taxes.

ISK faucet = something that adds isk to the game from nowhere, like bounties or mission rewards.

Selling stuff on the market is not a faucet, as you are not actually adding ISK to the game, just moving it around.

And yes, I read your post. You said a 20 hour RF timer for level V CCs. Implying a fixed timer. Which is worthless.
Nariya Kentaya
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#35 - 2013-08-04 03:58:54 UTC
Mike Whiite wrote:
Just destroy the POCO, Place a new one, and over tax them, CC will be abandoned in 3,2,1, you'll get it.

this exactly, PI is NOT invulnerable to attack.

its worth less in highsec, so the only real places youll see PI worth attacking is low/null where you can quite easily drop POCO's into the ground, and put up your own.
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