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Bradley Manning Verdict

Author
Zhula Guixgrixks
Increasing Success by Lowering Expectations
#21 - 2013-07-31 10:39:07 UTC
Tricks of the prosecution. Technology unaware judges are a problem. The prosecution creates a myth of a "mad hacker"

"In the Manning case, the prosecution used Manning’s use of a standard, over 15-year-old Unix program called Wget to collect information, as if it were a dark and nefarious technique. Of course, anyone who has ever called up this utility on a Unix machine, which at this point is likely millions of ordinary Americans, knows that this program is no more scary or spectacular (and far less powerful) than a simple Google search. Yet the court apparently didn’t know this and seemed swayed by it."

from EFF here...

ps be a "mad hacker" download eve-online Big smile

wget http://content.eveonline.com/575759/EVE_Online_Installer_575759.exe

0ccupational Hazzard --> check out the true love story 

Alpheias
The Khaleph
#22 - 2013-07-31 12:17:40 UTC
Surfin's PlunderBunny wrote:


For me it's inexcusable for a service member (note I said member, not serviceman... I not sexist Bear) to give up information that puts other servicemen (who am I kidding... those chicks can't do the real jobs Twisted) in sudden and totally avoidable danger. Snowden was looking out for the American people, Manning probably got Americans killed. We'll never hear about it though because that's classified.


In my mind, what the American government did is beyond inexcusable, gone to war and invaded countries on frivolous claims and accusations (weapons of mass destruction and harboring terrorists).

All Manning did was to show that the glorious US military is fully capable of war crimes. Something that the culprits has yet to be trialed for according to the Hague Convention, because the US military and US government protects these criminals.

Agent of Chaos, Sower of Discord.

Don't talk to me unless you are IQ verified and certified with three references from non-family members. Please have your certificate of authenticity on hand.

Grimpak
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#23 - 2013-07-31 12:48:03 UTC
Alpheias wrote:
Surfin's PlunderBunny wrote:


For me it's inexcusable for a service member (note I said member, not serviceman... I not sexist Bear) to give up information that puts other servicemen (who am I kidding... those chicks can't do the real jobs Twisted) in sudden and totally avoidable danger. Snowden was looking out for the American people, Manning probably got Americans killed. We'll never hear about it though because that's classified.


In my mind, what the American government did is beyond inexcusable, gone to war and invaded countries on frivolous claims and accusations (weapons of mass destruction and harboring terrorists).

All Manning did was to show that the glorious US military is fully capable of war crimes. Something that the culprits has yet to be trialed for according to the Hague Convention, because the US military and US government protects these criminals.

there are times when you chose duty or responsibility.

Manning chose responsibility.

[img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]

[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right

Khergit Deserters
Crom's Angels
#24 - 2013-07-31 19:16:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Khergit Deserters
Kirjava wrote:
I no longer feel shame in admitting George W Bush seemed like a decent enough bloke out of his depth a bit with Cheney pulling the strings. Disagreed with what he did, but I think he had more integrity and honesty than Obama. Which I can respect to be honest, prefer the honest well meaning tyrant to the deceptive and manipulative technocrat any day.

Dubya can seem like a well-meaning buffoon, but... well, only the buffoon part is right. I was in Texas when he was running for state governor and serving as state governor. Arrogant, and completely out of touch with the bulk of people who we're from privileged backgrounds like himself. His borders between his duties as a public official and his duties to his business interests and his cronies were very hazy. He never had any corruption scandals, but that was because he never needed to do anything illegal. He was a master of legally using public office for private gain, so he and his cronies could make their money that way. (His dad Bush Sr. was a master of that too. As is his brother in Florida who apparently helped him steal the 2000 election. And his uncle, a former U.S. ambassador who pedaled influence to foreign millionaires wanting U.S. permanent resident visas). All of the abuse of power, cronyism, and sleazy stuff he did in Texas, he did again as U.S. President, but on much huger scale.

I just hate that Oliver Stone made that movie that makes Dubya look like a harmless loser. Stone is like Ron Howard, he doesn't bending the facts to create a "hook" to make the movie a better story. The way he made Nixon an alcoholic and Jim Morrison a shaman. Anyway, I think the book or movie showing how really elitist, arrogant, greedy and cynical the Dubya Admin really was is still to come.
Tumahub
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#25 - 2013-08-01 00:18:41 UTC
Grimpak wrote:
Alpheias wrote:
Surfin's PlunderBunny wrote:


For me it's inexcusable for a service member (note I said member, not serviceman... I not sexist Bear) to give up information that puts other servicemen (who am I kidding... those chicks can't do the real jobs Twisted) in sudden and totally avoidable danger. Snowden was looking out for the American people, Manning probably got Americans killed. We'll never hear about it though because that's classified.


In my mind, what the American government did is beyond inexcusable, gone to war and invaded countries on frivolous claims and accusations (weapons of mass destruction and harboring terrorists).

All Manning did was to show that the glorious US military is fully capable of war crimes. Something that the culprits has yet to be trialed for according to the Hague Convention, because the US military and US government protects these criminals.

there are times when you chose duty or responsibility.

Manning chose responsibility.


Well said.
Freakdevil
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#26 - 2013-08-01 04:06:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Freakdevil
His life is over. I hope he can at least stay safe and keep his self respect. Be strong.
Reiisha
#27 - 2013-08-01 19:39:52 UTC
Surfin's PlunderBunny wrote:
Tumahub wrote:
Kirjava wrote:
Which I can respect to be honest, prefer the honest well meaning tyrant to the deceptive and manipulative technocrat any day.


I'll take none of the above.

Surfin's PlunderBunny wrote:

Manning should be flogged and crucified because he endangered lives of our servicemen who had nothing to do with the evil plans of the higher ups.


Does this logic apply to every soldier who endangers the lives of civilians and innocents who had nothing to do with the evil of their country's dictators?

I mean, if people who signed up for the war machine are innocent, shouldn't people who didn't take on that charge be even more innocent?

I take your opinion as meaning that collateral damage in the pursuit of justice is unreasonable. In that case, you've got a whole lot of ranking military officials and politicians to flog.


For me it's inexcusable for a service member (note I said member, not serviceman... I not sexist Bear) to give up information that puts other servicemen (who am I kidding... those chicks can't do the real jobs Twisted) in sudden and totally avoidable danger. Snowden was looking out for the American people, Manning probably got Americans killed. We'll never hear about it though because that's classified.


Not to be rude, but that kind of thinking keeps dictators in power.

Because it's just orders, right?

If you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all...

Grimpak
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#28 - 2013-08-01 19:49:21 UTC
Reiisha wrote:

Not to be rude, but that kind of thinking keeps dictators in power.

Because it's just orders, right?

being a good ol' devil's advocate here, and adding to what I said above, when you need to pick between duty and responsibility, you pretty much hit one of the greatest quagmires of human condition, because in the end it's damned if you do, damned if you don't.

[img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]

[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right

Astenion
Zeeman Industries
The Ancients.
#29 - 2013-08-02 11:22:58 UTC
Manning is not Snowden. Manning is a bitter, whiny soon-to-be ex-soldier who went overboard taking out his frustration at the US government. Had he just released the journalist video, the argument would be valid. As it stands, he uploaded as many documents as he could find in the same way an angry ex would post nudes on the internet of his or her ex.

Snowden, on the other hand, is a little bit both patriot and traitor. He's more patriot than traitor but he's not completely in the right here. He began with the NSA leaks which showed surveillance on civilians, but he also leaked classified but not unlawful information to other countries who could use that information against the US. In both cases of whistleblowing, both of them are at fault in some way. The moral of the story: cover your ass because courts don't recognize well-meaning mistakes.

That said, I'd just like to touch on the state of hypocrisy seen around Europe since this whole ordeal exploded. As an American living in Europe, I have to say that Europeans are being very, very hypocritical about this. First off, Germany colluded with the NSA programs so as to gather information on its own citizens, and no amount of feigned outcry will change that. Now EU governments want the information gathered by the NSA, I'm sure to delete it all, right? Riiiiiiight.

Secondly, European governments have been collecting data on its citizens for YEARS. The French, Germans, and Italians, just to name a few, have been snooping on journalists and private citizens of interest for years, and it's not about to stop anytime soon. Europeans are just using this as another excuse as to why they deem it ok to despise Americans, without even owning up to their own misdeeds over the years and hoping the rest of the world doesn't see the hypocrisy. The America hate is becoming more than just an internet pastime; it's now becoming real. While I agree that Americans should be ridiculed for being rather ignorant and ego-centric, the hate coming from Europe, most notably the UK, has to stop. In Europe, it's not prejudicial as long as the target is an American, and it's disgusting.
Grimpak
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#30 - 2013-08-02 11:49:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Grimpak
Astenion wrote:
While I agree that Americans should be ridiculed for being rather ignorant and ego-centric, the hate coming from Europe, most notably the UK, has to stop. In Europe, it's not prejudicial as long as the target is an American, and it's disgusting.

I usually trash-talk the american government, not the american people.

american people really only need to travel more, and not as a tourist.

and yes, we europeans are egomaniac hypocrites, that I admit.

[img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]

[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right

Kirjava
Lothian Enterprises
#31 - 2013-08-02 14:20:20 UTC
European condition, we used to rule the world, now we eat humble pie.

And what with the release yesterday of the other systems, plus the fact that GCHQ is taking money from the NSA leads to only one conclusion. We need to kick the US out of Europe for the sake of our independence. Out, all of it. Remove all USAF bases, all collaborative military functions need to be removed as it is proving to be systematically toxic. As it stands we could have a considerably better relationship with Russia and the Ukraine if we are not nursing forward foreign military assets.

[center]Haruhiists - Overloading Out of Pod discussions since 2007. /人◕‿‿◕人\ Unban Saede![/center]

Grimpak
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#32 - 2013-08-02 18:02:41 UTC
Kirjava wrote:
European condition, we used to rule the world, now we eat humble pie.

And what with the release yesterday of the other systems, plus the fact that GCHQ is taking money from the NSA leads to only one conclusion. We need to kick the US out of Europe for the sake of our independence. Out, all of it. Remove all USAF bases, all collaborative military functions need to be removed as it is proving to be systematically toxic. As it stands we could have a considerably better relationship with Russia and the Ukraine if we are not nursing forward foreign military assets.

not that I agree with you, but this is europe, you really think this will happen in our lifetime?Lol

[img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]

[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right

Reiisha
#33 - 2013-08-02 19:26:15 UTC
Astenion wrote:
While I agree that Americans should be ridiculed for being rather ignorant and ego-centric, the hate coming from Europe, most notably the UK, has to stop. In Europe, it's not prejudicial as long as the target is an American, and it's disgusting.


To be honest, this is coming from both sides, not just Europeans.

Because all Germans are na-zed-i's, all French are coward, croissant eating lazy farmers, all Dutch people are high and morally corrupt because weed is legal.... The stuff i've heard from some Americans quite frankly trumps whatever's going on the other way if i'm honest as far as prejudices go. On one hand there's prejudices based on what we see in the news and what a certain country is doing to others in the rest of the world, on the other hand there's prejudices based on hearsay and fairytales made up by people who have never even left their state.

If you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all...

Kirjava
Lothian Enterprises
#34 - 2013-08-02 21:06:38 UTC
Grimpak wrote:
Kirjava wrote:
European condition, we used to rule the world, now we eat humble pie.

And what with the release yesterday of the other systems, plus the fact that GCHQ is taking money from the NSA leads to only one conclusion. We need to kick the US out of Europe for the sake of our independence. Out, all of it. Remove all USAF bases, all collaborative military functions need to be removed as it is proving to be systematically toxic. As it stands we could have a considerably better relationship with Russia and the Ukraine if we are not nursing forward foreign military assets.

not that I agree with you, but this is europe, you really think this will happen in our lifetime?Lol

No, but the US is acting like a houseguest that wont leave and complains loudly when you changer thr router login details to drop a hint Oops

[center]Haruhiists - Overloading Out of Pod discussions since 2007. /人◕‿‿◕人\ Unban Saede![/center]

Astenion
Zeeman Industries
The Ancients.
#35 - 2013-08-02 21:20:57 UTC
Reiisha wrote:
Astenion wrote:
While I agree that Americans should be ridiculed for being rather ignorant and ego-centric, the hate coming from Europe, most notably the UK, has to stop. In Europe, it's not prejudicial as long as the target is an American, and it's disgusting.


To be honest, this is coming from both sides, not just Europeans.

Because all Germans are na-zed-i's, all French are coward, croissant eating lazy farmers, all Dutch people are high and morally corrupt because weed is legal.... The stuff i've heard from some Americans quite frankly trumps whatever's going on the other way if i'm honest as far as prejudices go. On one hand there's prejudices based on what we see in the news and what a certain country is doing to others in the rest of the world, on the other hand there's prejudices based on hearsay and fairytales made up by people who have never even left their state.


You act like the ignorant Americans are the only ones in the world who look down upon other nations. How many times have you heard the English talk badly about the French? It's practically a national pastime. When was the last time you heard any European NOT speak badly of Italians, even when most of the time it's flat-out racism? But that's ok in Europe, because it's ok to be racist as long as everyone can agree on the country deemed at fault.

While I love living here and I'll never leave, Europe as a whole is one big ball of hypocrisy in nearly any controversy. Europeans hide behind their relative anonymity among themselves in order to lash out against other people because they know it's so much easier to find something wrong with a big issue while simultaneously hiding the mountain of smaller but equally disturbing issues in their own country.

Europeans are that guy who throws the shoe at the band from the crowd and then moves through the crowd so no one can find him, and then defends his actions by saying the band sucks in his opinion and deserved it. Americans can be just as hypocritical, but to act like Europe is some bastion of generosity, fairness, and tolerance is absolutely idiotic. It's cool as hell and I love living here, but it's just as ****** up as the US, just in different ways.
Grimpak
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#36 - 2013-08-03 00:46:31 UTC
Astenion wrote:
When was the last time you heard any European NOT speak badly of Italians, even when most of the time it's flat-out racism?



of course we trash-talk italians. I mean, they put Berlusconi on power. twice!
P

[img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]

[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right

Tumahub
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#37 - 2013-08-03 04:55:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Tumahub
Kirjava wrote:

No, but the US is acting like a houseguest that wont leave and complains loudly when you changer thr router login details to drop a hint Oops


I dunno, seems pretty obvious that the usgov has the deed to that house or at least has significant dirt on the chap that does. Blink

(But I eagerly await the day you all throw them out on their asses. That would be glorious.)
Astenion
Zeeman Industries
The Ancients.
#38 - 2013-08-03 12:19:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Astenion
The irony in all of this is that the US wants out of NATO, but the European members are begging them to stay because the US pays 1/4 of the NATO budget alone and has allowed Europe to shirk its military fiscal responsibilities with the notion of, "If anything happens, the Americans will come anyway so why should we invest in our own defense?"

Because America is tired of holding your ******* hand, that's why. However, due to your utter impotence and short-sightedness, it has no choice. America looks out for its own interests, as it should, but as a close second also looks out for the interests of its allies, believe it or not. Europeans wouldn't **** on each other to put each other out if they were on fire, much less give a toss about its babysitter's interests. If you want America out of Europe, try convincing your politicians to stop paying themselves an exorbitant amount of money that makes American politicians' salaries look like janitor wages, take control over NATO, and stop shirking its responsibilities. Europeans still don't get it: what affects you affects Americans, no matter what the idiot American public may think. If you refuse to do anything about it, someone has to take the reigns while you sit around eating olives on your 6 weeks of vacation per year from your job in which it is quite literally impossible to be fired.

Also, I LOVE how this entire NSA controversy has been focused entirely on Americans, yet the UK was right there with us the entire time as well as the "victims" of said controversy.
Alpheias
The Khaleph
#39 - 2013-08-03 12:35:32 UTC
Astenion wrote:
The irony in all of this is that the US wants out of NATO, but the European members are begging them to stay because the US pays 1/4 of the NATO budget alone and has allowed Europe to shirk its military fiscal responsibilities with the notion of, "If anything happens, the Americans will come anyway so why should we invest in our own defense?"

Because America is tired of holding your ******* hand, that's why. However, due to your utter impotence and short-sightedness, it has no choice. America looks out for its own interests, as it should, but as a close second also looks out for the interests of its allies, believe it or not. Europeans wouldn't **** on each other to put each other out if they were on fire, much less give a toss about its babysitter's interests. If you want America out of Europe, try convincing your politicians to stop paying themselves an exorbitant amount of money that makes American politicians' salaries look like janitor wages, take control over NATO, and stop shirking its responsibilities. Europeans still don't get it: what affects you affects Americans, no matter what the idiot American public may think. If you refuse to do anything about it, someone has to take the reigns while you sit around eating olives on your 6 weeks of vacation per year from your job in which it is quite literally impossible to be fired.

Also, I LOVE how this entire NSA controversy has been focused entirely on Americans, yet the UK was right there with us the entire time as well as the "victims" of said controversy.


Sounds like the only intelligent thing you can do in a situation like this is find a job that involved you moving back home rather than being on a continent full of "hypocrites" such as the Europeans that has the favorite pastime of bashing anything and everything 'MURICAN. Right?

Agent of Chaos, Sower of Discord.

Don't talk to me unless you are IQ verified and certified with three references from non-family members. Please have your certificate of authenticity on hand.

Astenion
Zeeman Industries
The Ancients.
#40 - 2013-08-03 12:43:44 UTC
Grimpak wrote:
Astenion wrote:
When was the last time you heard any European NOT speak badly of Italians, even when most of the time it's flat-out racism?



of course we trash-talk italians. I mean, they put Berlusconi on power. twice!
P


And they just sent him to prison. I guess since it's all about Berlusconi, the racism will stop, right? Right? Sure it will....

The fact is, Europeans don't know enough about the political structure here to criticize. From the outside it looks as if the people all vote for him, when that's not entirely the case. Unlike the US but equally as ridiculous, Italy has an overabundance of political parties. When some parties realize that they can't win, they're offered to join forces with one of the two or three big parties at the end, and if they're center-right or even centrist, they usually go with the right because the left is completely inept. The right is a ridiculous circus, but much like Republicans, they're incredibly organized and are able to put everything they want through in the Senate and House when they're in charge. In effect, Berlusconi and his ilk quite literally absorb other parties, and seeing as how the average age in Italy is 57 years old, many people lean conservatively even if that means they hate Berlusconi.

Then Movimento 5 Stelle (Five Star Movement) gained ground this year and A THIRD of all Italians voted in a protest vote for a protest party. ONE THIRD. That means 20 million people voted for them and they got so many votes that they upset the dynamic forever in Parliament. They didn't win, but they managed to keep the two power blocs from winning. How's that for your dim, uninformed view on how **** works here?

All that said, that doesn't mean Italy doesn't have ****** up ****. The bureaucracy is crippling and there's a recession. However, at least Italy is solvent, which is more than I can say for Spain and Greece. Also, there's something to be said for the most beautiful country in the world, just like there's something to be said about the ignorance of finger-wagging people who would rather be racist, arrogant dicks than make an effort to understand how things really happen here.
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