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[Odyssey 1.1] Command Ships

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Hortoken Wolfbrother
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#201 - 2013-08-01 17:14:26 UTC
Michael J Caboose wrote:
No. The mimatar/gallente command ships get a very powerful bonus to skirmish links. In exchange, they are more fragile.
The amarr/caldari command ships get a very powerful bonus to EHP. In exchange, they get a bonus to the crappy info warfare links that are seldom even used.

Seems fair. Give the minmatar/gallente EHP bonuses, and no one will ever use amarr or caldari command ships.

I think you're having a seizure bro.
Doddy
Excidium.
#202 - 2013-08-01 17:14:58 UTC
Lilan Kahn wrote:
slepnir also taking massive dps nerf


No its taking a tiny dps nerf and a big alpha buff.
Heribeck Weathers
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#203 - 2013-08-01 17:15:46 UTC
Goldensaver wrote:
Lilan Kahn wrote:
slepnir also taking massive dps nerf

Barely. less than one whole turret. That's less than a 4% DPS nerf, with so much more utility.


Sleps getting a 100% damage bonus to 5 guns, that = 10 guns worth of damage, thats more than 1.5 turets worth of damage lost.
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#204 - 2013-08-01 17:16:45 UTC
Heribeck Weathers wrote:
Goldensaver wrote:
Lilan Kahn wrote:
slepnir also taking massive dps nerf

Barely. less than one whole turret. That's less than a 4% DPS nerf, with so much more utility.


Sleps getting a 100% damage bonus to 5 guns, that = 10 guns worth of damage, thats more than 1.5 turets worth of damage lost.


You're exceptionall bad. The suggested sleipnir does too much damage, it has more effective weapons than any other CS for some reason, when actually they should probably all be more or less the same.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#205 - 2013-08-01 17:17:21 UTC
Capn Jack wrote:
So come Odyssey 1.1 Gallente are getting 2 big nerfs, Deimos loses a huge chunk of EHP and the Astarte loses ~8% dps (not home so can't do the math) do you feel that Gallente ships in general are currently too powerful for single and small gang warfare that you can justify these changes? (note: that these ships are already not the most used ships, and with these nerfs we might well see a decline in their use).

Translation:

You took away my sucker and gave me this big bag of cash instead.... I want my sucker back.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Doddy
Excidium.
#206 - 2013-08-01 17:18:47 UTC
Cpt Boomstick wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:


Absolution:
Fittings: 1500 PWG (-75),

Damnation:
Fittings: 1300(-290) PWG

Astarte:
Fittings: 1350 PWG (-100)

Eos:
Fittings: 1200 PWG (-225)

Sleipnir:
Fittings: 1300 PWG (-160)

Claymore:
Fittings: 1100 PWG (-290)

Nighthawk:
Fittings: 825 PWG (+115), 550 CPU (-5)


So many of these ships are already super tight on powergrid using a proper fit. I see here most of them are actually getting powergrid reductions in the same context of wanting to have them include ganglinks on board which use 200 powergrid each just for the t1 version. I also included the nighthawk here which is notoriously tight on CPU and its actually losing another 5 cpu. This really doesn't make any sense to me.


Other than the reduction of grid usage for ganglinks in the other thread (linked in this one)? And the fact the NH needs 1 less launcher?
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#207 - 2013-08-01 17:19:37 UTC
glepp wrote:
Nice changes, but why keep the local rep bonuses? These are gang ships as defined by their role, and local reps are useless in any gang setting. Change it for a hitpoint bonus instead to differentiate from the bonuses on amarr/caldari. Amarr get both, caldari get resists, gallente get hp, and minnies get more speed+reps.

As it stands it's a logical contradiction that means armor fleets won't have skirmish links when you remove off-grid boosts.

Active tanking has been buffed. You might also take a peek at the resist buffs that took place under the hood as well.

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Heribeck Weathers
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#208 - 2013-08-01 17:20:32 UTC
TrouserDeagle wrote:
Heribeck Weathers wrote:
Goldensaver wrote:
Lilan Kahn wrote:
slepnir also taking massive dps nerf

Barely. less than one whole turret. That's less than a 4% DPS nerf, with so much more utility.


Sleps getting a 100% damage bonus to 5 guns, that = 10 guns worth of damage, thats more than 1.5 turets worth of damage lost.


You're exceptionall bad. The suggested sleipnir does too much damage, it has more effective weapons than any other CS for some reason, when actually they should probably all be more or less the same.


I think you are the bad one here good sir, not only is the slep taking a huge damage nerf guns but also drones, but it also dosent do any more damage than most CS, the Claymore is getting 10 effective missles and 5 med drones. the Astarte and Eos will also be able to keep up in dps quite easily. Tho i do think the Abso and Vulture could use some love.
CCP Fozzie
C C P
C C P Alliance
#209 - 2013-08-01 17:21:03 UTC
Heribeck Weathers wrote:
Goldensaver wrote:
Lilan Kahn wrote:
slepnir also taking massive dps nerf

Barely. less than one whole turret. That's less than a 4% DPS nerf, with so much more utility.


Sleps getting a 100% damage bonus to 5 guns, that = 10 guns worth of damage, thats more than 1.5 turets worth of damage lost.


That's not how damage bonuses work good sir.

It's 11.25 effective turrets after this proposal.

Game Designer | Team Five-0

Twitter: @CCP_Fozzie
Twitch chat: ccp_fozzie
Michael J Caboose
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#210 - 2013-08-01 17:21:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Michael J Caboose
Since the link to the command ship model thread in the OP is non-existent, I'll say it here;

PLEASE do not change the model of the Absolution to the Harbinger model. The bloody chicken is an icon, and the Harb is one of the ugliest ships in the game. Only the caldari Turkey-with-a-Suitcase is worse.
I'm Down
Perkone
Caldari State
#211 - 2013-08-01 17:21:26 UTC  |  Edited by: I'm Down
This addresses 0 issues that have been staples of Command ship discussion for years.

You tell us soon tm they will be out of the POS shields, but you give them hardly any defensive boost. You reduce their offensive capabilities, and pigeon hole them badly with weaponry.

I mean seriously, WTF are you doing these days to mess up such a simple thing as command ships.

They should easily have 500-750k EHP potential to start with, and maybe then we can at least accept the damage. But this damage is pathetic. Most Tech 1 Battle cruisers will easily trump these guys on DPS. You say oh 10 turrets of strength... these dudes should dominate all sub BS platforms on DPS other than ABC's.

They already have 3 major weaknesses.

They're slow as crap
They have a huge sig
They have bad range damage projection.

These changes actually make me want to use Command ships less than before.
Goldensaver
Maraque Enterprises
Just let it happen
#212 - 2013-08-01 17:23:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Goldensaver
Heribeck Weathers wrote:
Goldensaver wrote:
Lilan Kahn wrote:
slepnir also taking massive dps nerf

Barely. less than one whole turret. That's less than a 4% DPS nerf, with so much more utility.


Sleps getting a 100% damage bonus to 5 guns, that = 10 guns worth of damage, thats more than 1.5 turets worth of damage lost.

Bonuses are calculated multiplicatively. Because of that we come out with this:

New Sleipnir:
10% bonus to damage
10% bonus to damage
5 turrets

5 * 1.5 * 1.5 = 11.25


Old Sleipnir:
5% bonus to damage
5% bonus to RoF
7 turrets

7 * 1.25 / .75 = 11.6 (repeating)



New Sleipnir vs Old Sleipnir

11.25/11.666666666 = .9643 etc. Meaning that the new Sleipnir gets over 96% as much DPS as the old one.

Less than a 4% dps nerf.


Editing to remove some of the *******.
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#213 - 2013-08-01 17:24:33 UTC
Heribeck Weathers wrote:
TrouserDeagle wrote:
Heribeck Weathers wrote:
Goldensaver wrote:
Lilan Kahn wrote:
slepnir also taking massive dps nerf

Barely. less than one whole turret. That's less than a 4% DPS nerf, with so much more utility.


Sleps getting a 100% damage bonus to 5 guns, that = 10 guns worth of damage, thats more than 1.5 turets worth of damage lost.


You're exceptionall bad. The suggested sleipnir does too much damage, it has more effective weapons than any other CS for some reason, when actually they should probably all be more or less the same.


I think you are the bad one here good sir, not only is the slep taking a huge damage nerf guns but also drones, but it also dosent do any more damage than most CS, the Claymore is getting 10 effective missles and 5 med drones. the Astarte and Eos will also be able to keep up in dps quite easily. Tho i do think the Abso and Vulture could use some love.


So bad.

Also I like how your complaint is that the sleipnir isn't better than everything else (it still is ofc).
CCP Ytterbium
C C P
C C P Alliance
#214 - 2013-08-01 17:24:33 UTC
Aeril Malkyre wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Sarmatiko wrote:
Also glad that Marauders are safe, for now..

/Maniacal Laugh
You madman. Don't hurt my Vargur.


He won't, you have my word.

*Quickly hides the half-dissected Vargur lying next to the Frenchman and replaces it with a half-eaten baguette*
glepp
New Caldari Bureau of Investigation
#215 - 2013-08-01 17:24:39 UTC
Tuxedo Catfish wrote:
Michael J Caboose wrote:
Hortoken Wolfbrother wrote:
I also echo elendar's concerns. The minmatar/gallente ships are too vulnerable for large fleet fights. Not having natural resists or EHP to match up to their companions means they start off already incredibly hobbled.

It'd be nice to see one ship for each race left intact as an active brawler, but the other ship get a bit of love to make it tougher. Why do caldari and amarr get a monopoly on these bonuses, when they are far far far far far better for large gang situations. You have two commands for each race, so it makes sense to have one designed around small gangs and one designed for larger fleets. In the case of minmatar, you could leave the claymore with its active bonus, and give the sleip a strong passive tanking bonus.

Thats my only complaint, but the ships are pretty good otherwise.


No. The mimatar/gallente command ships get a very powerful bonus to skirmish links. In exchange, they are more fragile. Less useful in fleets, but good in gangs.
The amarr/caldari command ships get a very powerful bonus to EHP. In exchange, they get a bonus to the crappy info warfare links that are seldom even used.

Seems fair. Give the minmatar/gallente EHP bonuses, and no one will ever use amarr or caldari command ships.


That's actually a pretty good answer.

I reiterate my first two questions, though.

No, local reps are wasted as soon as incoming dps > 1k, which means any gang > 1 Attack BC, really.

So this either means that gallente CS won't be using one of their boni, or that armor gangs will never get bonused skirmish links. The minnie ships could compensate if they were faster (ie Attack BC speeds), but the Eos/Astarte are way too big/sluggish to sig/speed tank. Bye bye DP HAC armor fleets, it was fun while it lasted.

Give the Gallente CS a tad more speed and swap local rep bonus on at least one for a hitpoint (not resist) bonus to allow it some more time to catch reps, please.
Hortoken Wolfbrother
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#216 - 2013-08-01 17:24:41 UTC
Goldensaver wrote:
Or do you still disbelieve the math?



You can probably feel the wind as someone prepared to dunk on you.
Heribeck Weathers
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#217 - 2013-08-01 17:26:13 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Heribeck Weathers wrote:
Goldensaver wrote:
Lilan Kahn wrote:
slepnir also taking massive dps nerf

Barely. less than one whole turret. That's less than a 4% DPS nerf, with so much more utility.


Sleps getting a 100% damage bonus to 5 guns, that = 10 guns worth of damage, thats more than 1.5 turets worth of damage lost.


That's not how damage bonuses work good sir.

It's 11.25 effective turrets after this proposal.


Ahh I see now how "CCP math" works (bonuses should be a set number not stack on top of eachother, its extreamly misleading) , you guys really should add a tutorial to the game all about mosual and bonuses stacking.
Gareth Burns
GeoCorp.
The Initiative.
#218 - 2013-08-01 17:26:23 UTC
OK!

You've done HACs & Command Ships...

Where are my Marauders!


on the upside it looks like both HACs and Command Ships got a good bonus to Sensor Strength... which is one of the big points that need to be changed on Marauders.

Noblesse Oblige ► Gareth Burns
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#219 - 2013-08-01 17:27:07 UTC
Xequecal wrote:
Doddy wrote:
Tobias Hareka wrote:
Rek Seven wrote:
Each race should have one command ship that has a bonus to local reps and one that has a passive tank bonus!What?


Rather not. Amarr is quite bad at passive tanking because lack of med slots required for shield tanking. And you can't passive tank a armor tanker.


I don't think you get passive tanking. Passive tanking = no repair, so any armour buffer tank is passive tanking. Amarr is by far the best race at passive tanking.

I think you are thinking of shield "passive" tanking which relies on shield regen. Whether it is actually passive tanking depends on how you define passive. The shield is regening, so its certainly not fully passive, but the player is not controlling it so it is passive on the pilots part.


Armor doesn't regen, so if you passive tank armor you're done after one fight, win or lose. You have to go back to a friendly station to repair, and that could be far away. If you passive tank shield you can survive in enemy space forever and keep killing until someone finally beats you.

Jesus.

Stop confusing buffer tanking with passive tanking.

You also need to realize that buffer tanks are extremely effective on the right ship, but someone in your gang needs to have remote repair (preferably a logistics of some sort, even a logistics frigate will do) for in between fight repair work.

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Ariesen Serenity
SRE Brotherhood
#220 - 2013-08-01 17:27:08 UTC
But the Sleip is also losing 15 drone bandwidth. So that's a small dps downgrade also (added in to the 96%)