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[Odyssey 1.1] Command Ships

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Jerick Ludhowe
Internet Tuff Guys
#181 - 2013-08-01 16:41:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Jerick Ludhowe
Baren wrote:
Maybe the they could all use just a little more dps,


Or at the very least have the same number of total slots as "most" t2 do compared to parent t1 hull... At least pre patch there were two commands that were like this... The drop of a slot on the Sleipnir and claymore put them all -1 compared to their parent hulls... While I do like the normalized slot number that has been created by this, I still feel Fozzie went the wrong direction.

I'd strongly suggest giving all of the commands +1 tanking slot.
Rek Seven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#182 - 2013-08-01 16:47:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Rek Seven
Tobias Hareka wrote:
Rek Seven wrote:
Each race should have one command ship that has a bonus to local reps and one that has a passive tank bonus!What?


Rather not. Amarr is quite bad at passive tanking because lack of med slots required for shield tanking. And you can't passive tank a armor tanker.


LOL don't be silly, you know i'm referring to a buffer tank... That's still kind of passive in my book as you don't have to do anything to achieve your tank.

Rek Seven wrote:
Each race should have one command ship that has a bonus to local reps and one that has a passive/buffer tank bonus!

Other than that, the changes look good but i'm no command ship expert What?


Fixed for your convenience. Blink
Hortoken Wolfbrother
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#183 - 2013-08-01 16:50:05 UTC
Overall I quite like it. You've cut out a role for commands as a ship that can field siege links and actually be quite useful in fleets or solo. They offer a nice mix of damage, survivability, and bring something to their fleets that'd be desirable. Nerf offgrid links and they'd be in a great spot.

Why cant hacs get the same love.
Elendar
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
#184 - 2013-08-01 16:52:33 UTC
Bacchanalian wrote:
Elendar wrote:
Not really a fan of the changes from a large fleet perspective.

At present on TQ in armour fleets the damnation is the only viable armour command ship as its the only one with the ehp to be able to survive just getting vollied off the field, skirmish/info links are run on damnations in most armour fleets because claymores/eos are simply too weak. Nothing in this update will change that.


To be honest, I think for that context of fight they'd be better off giving carriers the same bonuses as the command ships when it comes to links. Buffing command ships for the occasional 400 vs 400 leaves them unbalanced in other contexts.

Carriers have a bonus to the fitting on gang links, do they not? Why not give them the same leadership-related bonuses. It seems that as they had leadership skills as prerequisites for flying them, the notion existed in some past iteration of CCP and perhaps got lost along the way.


Even for 100 man fleets, a size most nullsec alliances can field for alliance fleets, only the vulture and damnation are realistically viable at present. At 400 people even these are very stretched to survive. Its for this sort of average size 0.0 alliance fleet that i think all 4 fleet command ships should be viable.

At present if i bring a claymore to an ahac gang it will die first because its the easiest target to kill in the fleet. This should not be the case.

Links for a carrier isn't necessarily a bad idea but it shouldn't be the necessity or people will end up dropping them all the time along with triage and that makes fights less interesting, ends them faster and becomes rapidly unviable for anyone without supercap majority to backup their link carrier.
Gnoshia
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#185 - 2013-08-01 16:57:06 UTC
Oh my. That new Nighthawk will be even better than it is now for PvE. May become an actual contender with the Tengu!
Hortoken Wolfbrother
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#186 - 2013-08-01 16:59:56 UTC
I also echo elendar's concerns. The minmatar/gallente ships are too vulnerable for large fleet fights. Not having natural resists or EHP to match up to their companions means they start off already incredibly hobbled.

It'd be nice to see one ship for each race left intact as an active brawler, but the other ship get a bit of love to make it tougher. Why do caldari and amarr get a monopoly on these bonuses, when they are far far far far far better for large gang situations. You have two commands for each race, so it makes sense to have one designed around small gangs and one designed for larger fleets. In the case of minmatar, you could leave the claymore with its active bonus, and give the sleip a strong passive tanking bonus.

Thats my only complaint, but the ships are pretty good otherwise.
Chris Winter
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse
The Curatores Veritatis Auxiliary
#187 - 2013-08-01 17:00:17 UTC
The Nighthawk's damage bonuses have been moved around, and rapid light missiles have been removed, but neither of these were called out as changes.

Currently:
Caldari Battlecruiser bonuses:
5% bonus to RLML, HAM, and HML ROF
4% bonus to shield resistances

Command ships bonuses:
5% bonus to missile kinetic damage (includes RLML)
5% bonus to heavy missile explosion velocity

After your change, the ROF bonus is on Command Ships and the damage bonus is on Caldari Battlecruiser. I guess it was moved in order to account for the loss of the launcher? Makes sense, but still might want to call it out (additionally on any other ships that may have had the same thing happen).

Also, why is the Nighthawk having its RLML bonus removed? RLMLs are awesome, and I'd hate to see the ship nerfed by not getting a damage/ROF bonus to them anymore :(
Doddy
Excidium.
#188 - 2013-08-01 17:03:12 UTC
I like the changes overall (though active rep bonus makes little sense) but why you hate nighthawk?. Its lagging behind the other CS currently and its buffs will only really have it hold station in comparison. You could at least let it get the bonus to all damage types.
Goldensaver
Maraque Enterprises
Just let it happen
#189 - 2013-08-01 17:04:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Goldensaver
I would just like to question the idea of putting 2 10% bonuses on the Sleipnir. With 11.25 effective turrets, in an artillery configuration it will be capable of enormous alpha strikes for medium weapons. At the moment the only comparable ship is either the 'Cane with 7.5 turrets of alpha strike, the Muninn with 6.25, and the current Sleipnir at 8.75. Now we jump 2.5 effective turrets worth of alpha to the Sleipnir at 11.25 turrets of alpha? Perhaps a RoF bonus might be more fitting. Even a 7.5% bonus (shows me 5*1.5/.625=12, perhaps a bit high, but not enormously out of line with current).

Edit: that aside, I very much like these changes. In most cases damage is preserved, or nearly preserved while adding utility and tank to all of them. I think these ships will be very dangerous, and will see much more use on the battlefield now.
Lilan Kahn
The Littlest Hobos
The Whale Hunters Association
#190 - 2013-08-01 17:05:58 UTC
slepnir also taking massive dps nerf
Goldensaver
Maraque Enterprises
Just let it happen
#191 - 2013-08-01 17:07:07 UTC
Lilan Kahn wrote:
slepnir also taking massive dps nerf

Barely. less than one whole turret. That's less than a 4% DPS nerf, with so much more utility.
Shigsy
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#192 - 2013-08-01 17:07:46 UTC
Sleip does 800 DPS with 425s?
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#193 - 2013-08-01 17:08:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Ranger 1
Grarr Dexx wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Grarr Dexx wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
It's not being changed.


Given up on trying to justify the Astarte nerf?


Astarte is fine l2p Lol


50% EM 10% Explosive, active tank bonus, 6 lowslots and only two rig slots

Yeah, sure. I'm sure you can see how 'fine' the Astarte is by seeing how often its used right now.

Wow buddy, way to ignore the actual important aspects of the ship. Big smileBig smileBig smile

You might look a bit closer at the other base resists by the way:
Quote:
Base shield resistances (EM/Therm/Kin/Exp): 0 / 60(+10) / 85(+7.5) / 50
Base armor resistances (EM/Therm/Kin/Exp): 50 / 67.5(+8.13) / 83.75(+8.13) / 10

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.

Tuxedo Catfish
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#194 - 2013-08-01 17:09:06 UTC
Why did you put the hybrid tracking bonus on a ship with no gun damage bonus?

Why did you put the hybrid tracking bonus on a ship that already has bonused drones to deal with smaller targets?

Why are command ships with active tank bonuses even a thing?
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#195 - 2013-08-01 17:11:50 UTC
Tuxedo Catfish wrote:

Why are command ships with active tank bonuses even a thing?


Apparently if you aren't fitting your command ship so that it has 30k ehp and can tank 1 battlecruiser, but gets totally disabled by a medium neut, you aren't doing small enough gang pvp.
Michael J Caboose
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#196 - 2013-08-01 17:12:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Michael J Caboose
Hortoken Wolfbrother wrote:
I also echo elendar's concerns. The minmatar/gallente ships are too vulnerable for large fleet fights. Not having natural resists or EHP to match up to their companions means they start off already incredibly hobbled.

It'd be nice to see one ship for each race left intact as an active brawler, but the other ship get a bit of love to make it tougher. Why do caldari and amarr get a monopoly on these bonuses, when they are far far far far far better for large gang situations. You have two commands for each race, so it makes sense to have one designed around small gangs and one designed for larger fleets. In the case of minmatar, you could leave the claymore with its active bonus, and give the sleip a strong passive tanking bonus.

Thats my only complaint, but the ships are pretty good otherwise.


No. The mimatar/gallente command ships get a very powerful bonus to skirmish links. In exchange, they are more fragile. Less useful in fleets, but good in gangs.
The amarr/caldari command ships get a very powerful bonus to EHP. In exchange, they get a bonus to the crappy info warfare links that are seldom even used.

Seems fair. Give the minmatar/gallente EHP bonuses, and no one will ever use amarr or caldari command ships.
Jerick Ludhowe
Internet Tuff Guys
#197 - 2013-08-01 17:13:09 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Grarr Dexx wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
It's not being changed.


Given up on trying to justify the Astarte nerf?


Astarte is fine l2p Lol


Ego mongering fozzie at his finest yet again Lol
Doddy
Excidium.
#198 - 2013-08-01 17:13:10 UTC
Xequecal wrote:
Doddy wrote:
Tobias Hareka wrote:
Rek Seven wrote:
Each race should have one command ship that has a bonus to local reps and one that has a passive tank bonus!What?


Rather not. Amarr is quite bad at passive tanking because lack of med slots required for shield tanking. And you can't passive tank a armor tanker.


I don't think you get passive tanking. Passive tanking = no repair, so any armour buffer tank is passive tanking. Amarr is by far the best race at passive tanking.

I think you are thinking of shield "passive" tanking which relies on shield regen. Whether it is actually passive tanking depends on how you define passive. The shield is regening, so its certainly not fully passive, but the player is not controlling it so it is passive on the pilots part.


Armor doesn't regen, so if you passive tank armor you're done after one fight, win or lose. You have to go back to a friendly station to repair, and that could be far away. If you passive tank shield you can survive in enemy space forever and keep killing until someone finally beats you.


Yep, but it doesn't make buffer tanking armour any less passive does it? Of course seeing as we are talking about command ships here there is gonna be someone else to rep it for you anyway.
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#199 - 2013-08-01 17:13:46 UTC
Why are there two rep bonused Command ships but not ONE rep bonused cruiser hull?

You know the ships that are more likely to be used in small scale scenarios where the rep bonus is actually useful? You are being really inconsistent with your rep bonuses CCP.

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Tuxedo Catfish
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#200 - 2013-08-01 17:14:14 UTC
Michael J Caboose wrote:
Hortoken Wolfbrother wrote:
I also echo elendar's concerns. The minmatar/gallente ships are too vulnerable for large fleet fights. Not having natural resists or EHP to match up to their companions means they start off already incredibly hobbled.

It'd be nice to see one ship for each race left intact as an active brawler, but the other ship get a bit of love to make it tougher. Why do caldari and amarr get a monopoly on these bonuses, when they are far far far far far better for large gang situations. You have two commands for each race, so it makes sense to have one designed around small gangs and one designed for larger fleets. In the case of minmatar, you could leave the claymore with its active bonus, and give the sleip a strong passive tanking bonus.

Thats my only complaint, but the ships are pretty good otherwise.


No. The mimatar/gallente command ships get a very powerful bonus to skirmish links. In exchange, they are more fragile. Less useful in fleets, but good in gangs.
The amarr/caldari command ships get a very powerful bonus to EHP. In exchange, they get a bonus to the crappy info warfare links that are seldom even used.

Seems fair. Give the minmatar/gallente EHP bonuses, and no one will ever use amarr or caldari command ships.


That's actually a pretty good answer.

I reiterate my first two questions, though.