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RR Stacking?

First post
Author
RuriHoshino
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#21 - 2011-11-09 21:46:15 UTC
Jita Alt666 wrote:
I think the answer to the current RR dominance lies in the cap usage of the modules. If Guardians and Scimis were not cap stable using 4/5 reppers then dynamics would shift - balance again would be an issue.


The Guardian/Basilisk benefit enormously from the cap chain that makes them stable and neut resistant. Suppose a cap transfer by default always used more cap than it gave out, and a max skilled Guardian pilot could get it to the point that they broke even (so that cap transfers no longer "created cap out of thin air" )? Whether this change in itself would be enough to reduce the viability of large logi blobs I couldn't say, but that would make it much easier to apply cap pressure to a rep chain.
Ituralde
Fabian Fleet Systems
#22 - 2011-11-09 23:09:00 UTC
The stacking argument exists to put an upper bound on the growth of rep strength on a single target relative to the growth rate of applicable DPS on a target.

Under current calculations, 1 logi will generally lock out more than one ship's worth of damage on a target. In the case of abaddons you are locking out as many as 6 -7 similar class (numbers go higher than this) ships worth of damage. Under a stack nerf, you would expect that ratio to even out with scale.

Honestly, given how low alpha most non-artillery weapons are, you can't rely on it alone to chew through targets on a sub-100 person scale. If people split off and segregate their reps to take full advantage, that is a good thing, as it doesn't make an individual target un-killable. Larger groups still maintain their advantage as they can then segregate their target calling and call two primaries for a smaller fleet's one. The key break from the current scenario is that **** actually explodes.

Sidenote: probably want to make this only apply to ships subject to the 15 minute logoff timer aggro, as there is no need to stack-nerf repping structures outside of a fight.
Bacchanalian
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#23 - 2011-11-10 02:24:28 UTC
Incidentally, to answer the "just bring more alpha" argument, here's an example of what I'm talking about. Note that I am NOT hating on Rooks and Kings and I'm certainly not implying that anyone that can scare up 25 Guardians can do this--Rooks and Kings are extremely good at what they do, and I doubt many in EVE could pull it off. But this fight in particular gives a very clear example of what I mean.

http://www.rooksandkings.com/killboard/?a=kill_related&kll_id=32474

You're looking at a fleet where the Maelstroms alone outnumber the Rooks and Kings fleet. ~60 Maelstroms. Rooks and Kings had ~40 in fleet that show up, and likely at least a dozen guardians on the field. 40 vs 130 and a total of maybe 30 real ships die between the two sides (a majority of which are from the side with the 3:1 numbers advantage). Even the "bring more" strategy only works to a certain extent. Check out the Vindicator with 250,000 damage taken. Carriers tend to take 500,000-1,000,000 depending on their rep support and whether or not they're volleyed by supers or broken by a battleship gang over time. Mind-boggling stuff (also, props to RnK for doing as well as they did in that engagement, holy hell--please put that fight in your next video, I'm very curious to be a fly on the wall for that one).

Tauranon
Weeesearch
CAStabouts
#24 - 2011-11-10 05:42:49 UTC
Bacchanalian wrote:
Incidentally, to answer the "just bring more alpha" argument, here's an example of what I'm talking about. Note that I am NOT hating on Rooks and Kings and I'm certainly not implying that anyone that can scare up 25 Guardians can do this--Rooks and Kings are extremely good at what they do, and I doubt many in EVE could pull it off. But this fight in particular gives a very clear example of what I mean.

http://www.rooksandkings.com/killboard/?a=kill_related&kll_id=32474

You're looking at a fleet where the Maelstroms alone outnumber the Rooks and Kings fleet. ~60 Maelstroms. Rooks and Kings had ~40 in fleet that show up, and likely at least a dozen guardians on the field. 40 vs 130 and a total of maybe 30 real ships die between the two sides (a majority of which are from the side with the 3:1 numbers advantage). Even the "bring more" strategy only works to a certain extent. Check out the Vindicator with 250,000 damage taken. Carriers tend to take 500,000-1,000,000 depending on their rep support and whether or not they're volleyed by supers or broken by a battleship gang over time. Mind-boggling stuff (also, props to RnK for doing as well as they did in that engagement, holy hell--please put that fight in your next video, I'm very curious to be a fly on the wall for that one).



I'm presuming the board updated since you looked at it...

Its a battle that at least partially took place at a tower - which has disengagement implications- its in lowsec which also has implications for the thoroughness of the ability to trap stuff. lots of the defending damage dealt is from the tower against unrepped, pure buffer ships - the damage dealt to them is nothing more than the EHP of the ships.

The shown numbers are 17 vs 24 losses, and those losses are hugely isk weighted in favour of the attackers, especially after insurance. Minus out the tower kills and its getting ugly.

Its an interesting outcome, but your conclusion can't be drawn with all the confounding factors, let alone the factors that can't be picked up from the KB.
Colonel Astor
Doomheim
#25 - 2011-11-10 07:12:40 UTC

You've heard of jamming, dampening and so on, right? lots of ways to counter logistics.

RR stacking is about as likely in Eve as damage stacking: if incoming damage has no limit then incoming rep won't.

Sandbox.

you'll see ewar changes long, long before anything like this, let's be realistic.
Bacchanalian
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#26 - 2011-11-10 07:19:38 UTC
Colonel Astor wrote:

You've heard of jamming, dampening and so on, right? lots of ways to counter logistics.

RR stacking is about as likely in Eve as damage stacking: if incoming damage has no limit then incoming rep won't.

Sandbox.

you'll see ewar changes long, long before anything like this, let's be realistic.


I'm okay with that so long as a) a way to coordinate large numbers of ewar ships/targets is implemented (aka, ewar watchlist so ewar pilots can tell who is already being jammed and not waste jammers on them) and/or b) there is a form of ewar implemented that "damps" logistics.

Damps as they exist are useless right now. Range damping logistics when their rep targets are at 5km does nothing. Scan res damping them gives you ~4 seconds more before they lock the rep target, so you MIGHT get a second large arty volley off if they Guardian reaction time is slow. When CCP nerfed damps they nerfed them into oblivion. The Gallente recons at the very least should have useful damping power. They don't.

Jamming works great when you have 1-4 targets to jam. No problems there. When you have 15 logistics to spread ECM across, it's very difficult to coordinate jamming all 15. It's easy for one ship to know which 3+ targets it has jammed, but when you have 5 ECM boats? How do you let the other 4 know what you have jammed without clogging up comms and yelling over primaries? You can't. Not in any sort of timely fashion that a pilot can react to while it matters.

So really, if they were to buff large-scale ECM coordination, that would work great as well. But until they do, you very quickly hit a wall where ECM is nearly impossible to coordinate without overlapping and wasting multiple jammers on the same targets.
Draahk Chimera
Supervillains
#27 - 2011-11-10 12:23:30 UTC
The thing is, sure there are counters... if you do this... then this... blue moon... then diagonally... then run it through EFT 2 times with the all lvl V char... then this... and presto!

In the reality that is Tranquility 99 fc's of 100 will just say "we need more guys". THUS. Logi stacking is blob inducing, in a game where a vast majority complain about the blob, and as such should be nerfed.
In my opinion.

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GavinGoodrich
Perkone
Caldari State
#28 - 2011-11-10 16:40:03 UTC
It was mentioned for some form of Ewar that reduces resists slightly.

Would be game changing, IMO, and fun Big smile Naturally a stacking penalty is in order.

Haaaaaalp my head's on fire

Jita Alt666
#29 - 2011-11-10 19:31:03 UTC
Colonel Astor wrote:

You've heard of jamming, dampening and so on, right? lots of ways to counter logistics.

RR stacking is about as likely in Eve as damage stacking: if incoming damage has no limit then incoming rep won't.

Sandbox.

you'll see ewar changes long, long before anything like this, let's be realistic.


This is plausible (in most situations) but it is not a rock paper scissors relationship:

Is it more beneficial to apply jams to the enemies DPS (stopping them killing you) or is it more beneficial to apply jams to the enemies logistics?

If you start a fight by jamming DPS you can make an assessment of how capable your DPS is of breaking their tank/reps while minimising loses. This allows you to "save" your fleet but leads to skirmishes then repeated attempts to avoid fights.

If you start a fight by jamming logistics your EWAR pilots will instantly be made primaries. The question is then:
Is your DPS enough to break their logistical backs sacrificing your EWAR hulls to do so?
Is your DPS enough to destroy their DPS before they break your EWAR hold on their rep ability?
Is your own logistics capable of repping your EWAR under fire while you remove their Logistics from the field?

I know I'm not adding much to the discussion here just illustrating the complexity of "countering logistics"
Miss CEO
Universal Excavation Services
#30 - 2011-11-10 22:04:41 UTC
The whole discussion about best counter is irrelevant while the game works the way it does. Noones going to put 50 pilots into EW ships on top of their own logistics to counter a fleet with 20...30 logistics, while it's far more effective to put 10...15 of those EW pilots into logistics to beat (or match) opponents logistics numbers and the rest into DPS boats.

It's as simple as that. Adding more logistics into your fleet is by far the cheapest (head count vise) method of adding performance and staying power.
Quark Valhala
Deliverance.
#31 - 2011-11-10 22:23:45 UTC
How would locker breaker bombs work on this doctrine?
Maybe give lock breaker a time delay from like a cycle time on jamers?
Miss CEO
Universal Excavation Services
#32 - 2011-11-10 22:29:29 UTC
Quark Valhala wrote:
How would locker breaker bombs work on this doctrine?
Maybe give lock breaker a time delay from like a cycle time on jamers?


Not very well in high-sec and low-sec Lol

In 0.0 it might disrupt the repairs for 4...5 seconds (or it could fail miserably). This means that you need a bomber to drop a new bomb like every 5 seconds to keep the pressure up and considering the bomb launcher cycle times, this amounts to a LOT of bombers. So again, the pilots are better spent in more logistics and DPS boats.
Athena Silk
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#33 - 2011-11-11 10:15:41 UTC
Quark Valhala wrote:
How would locker breaker bombs work on this doctrine?
Maybe give lock breaker a time delay from like a cycle time on jamers?

Considering that it also unlocks all the friendly ships in your fleet, I would say not very well Pirate

I agree with the gist of this thread: There needs to be something to counter logistics blobs in fleets. When the current counter is just "MOAR X!", it's kind of broken. Wasn't that pretty much the problem with Supers? The only counter to Supers was MOAR SUPERS!!1 until it got out of control. Similar issue with logistics.
Raptor217
Nomadic Spacial Bunnies Support Division
#34 - 2011-11-11 12:06:46 UTC
Alpha fleet is the end all counter to excess RR. If you alpha the target, your reps don't matter.
Miss CEO
Universal Excavation Services
#35 - 2011-11-11 15:18:41 UTC
Raptor217 wrote:
Alpha fleet is the end all counter to excess RR. If you alpha the target, your reps don't matter.


alpha works great when you got the numbers (A.K.A. The BLOB). However, alpha counts for nothing if you do not have enough of it, as it usually is the case with small (20...40 man) fleets, which is what this thread is all about.

Now if alpha is the end all counter to RR, how does it work when you can not alpha your targets? Roll
shal ri
Konigreich Preuben
Militaires-Sans-Frontieres.
#36 - 2011-11-11 18:52:31 UTC
from wat i have seen in fleet fights with logi on the field u spread dps to a few targets find a target NOT being repped and alpha said target. this put preasure on logi as they have to spead out thier rr across many ships and they dont have time to rep the prime target. it more or less leads to the fc being smart about pickin targets best to hit. call prime, call second, call thrid fire on target spread dps call prime, target dies, rinse repeat. all depends on the fc really.

but to get back on topic, blobs suck. enough said. happy huntin
Sigras
Conglomo
#37 - 2011-11-11 19:50:28 UTC
so, youre facing arguably the best logistics alliance in the game who has drilled and practiced with their logistics pilots, and since youre not creative enough to think of a counter youre calling for a nerf . . .

Heres an idea, lets use the crazy amount of ships in game and see if we can come up with a counter shall we?

Hmmm lets think . . . what cant a logi-blob deal with . . . . OOH I KNOW . . . lets try alpha striking muninns from long range . . . we'll one volley the guardians one by one . . .
Cassius Longinus
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#38 - 2011-11-13 17:54:58 UTC
Alpha works when you stack enough of it. for the munnin idea above, it works at about 50+ pilots. 1400's work better with painters, to the tune of 30ish.

Under that, you really can comp a falcon per logistics ship... if you can live with the shame of running 10 falcons. :)

HOWEVER, all I'm really posting here for is to throw this link here : http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=11523718 Count the logi. It's ridiculous, and it's a stale meta.
Bacchanalian
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#39 - 2011-11-13 23:12:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Bacchanalian
Sigras wrote:
so, youre facing arguably the best logistics alliance in the game who has drilled and practiced with their logistics pilots, and since youre not creative enough to think of a counter youre calling for a nerf . . .

Heres an idea, lets use the crazy amount of ships in game and see if we can come up with a counter shall we?

Hmmm lets think . . . what cant a logi-blob deal with . . . . OOH I KNOW . . . lets try alpha striking muninns from long range . . . we'll one volley the guardians one by one . . .


Actually, we have a fairly standard unofficial policy of simply not engaging Rooks and Kings, or blobbing their "solo" pilots with enough to kill them before they can titan bridge in an entire fleet and disengage when and if they do. Which I'm not particularly proud of, but there's really little alternative besides simply ignoring their existence.

We had a fairly successful arty fleet last week where we mopped up a Sedition fleet with three guardians, but even just three logis with our ~20 alpha boats was causing havoc when we shot anything with more EHP than a BC. We resorted to the FC doing countdowns before we all pulled the trigger on the primary, and even then we'd generally land him at 30% armor and it would die to the second volley or drones despite the logi getting reps on him.

If it were 5 Guardians, we'd not have killed anything with more than 50k EHP.

Anyway, I think the point was made and hopefully it gets some wheels turning in someone's head at CCP.

EDIT: Incidentally, logistics having T2 resists, ABing around for transversal, and having the sig radius of a frigate means that arties simply don't track them well at all. Even with a TP or two they're very hard to hit, and as such relying arty to alpha them is a huge gamble that rarely pays off with a ~30 man fleet. Especially since any of the T2 arty ammo is useless with the tracking penalties.
Mfume Apocal
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#40 - 2011-11-13 23:57:15 UTC
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