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Tidi is gamebreaking for the smaller side

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Author
Frostys Virpio
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#181 - 2013-08-01 01:15:12 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Andski wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Nerf power projection


That would technically make more sense but at the end of the day, it's much more damaging to the small entity who can't have people everywhere as it is to the large one who can anyway. But people don't see it that way. They see the CFC saving a tital by using power projection and all go OOOPPP!!!!!!!!


yeah "undock, warp to fleet member" was how our OP power projection ability saved the day


Wasn't the station bubbled so you jumped out of system and then abck in?

Might want to think a bit more about what you just said.


From the report on TMC :

Rather than having to clear bubbles and warp in 10% tidi, the CFC capital fleet chose to jump out of system, then jump to Zungen’s cyno, landing them directly on top of the NCdot fleet. In the non-tidi system, the caps calmly refit for cap and were able to reach jump cap while only a handful of game-seconds had passed in 4-EP.

I might understand it wrong but to me, this mean they jumped out of system then jumpad back in.
Caviar Liberta
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#182 - 2013-08-01 01:22:32 UTC
Kitty Baugh wrote:
That's right, I said it.
I'll keep it pretty short:

Time dilation is gamebreaking for the smaller side, simply because it gives the bigger side 10x the time to ping and get people online.

Example:
-Fleet of 250 bumps titan out of POS
-Begins killing Titan, gets it to half armour before 100 of the enemy undock and warp to them
-System gets tidi'd to ****
-Before the fleet of 250 can finish killing the titan (Enemy fleet has no serious RR), Tidi goes to insane amounts
-Before the enemy titan or enemy fleet can even be further dented because of how slow it is, enemy sends a ping out and gets hundreds more people online
-More Tidi allows more people to get online
-The people who are much smaller, but would've gotten a monumental victory then lose because Tidi gave their opponents much more time to get online, get organized and get into the fight

Inb4hisecpropvpersjumponthisthread


Its not TiDi that you should worry. Its better than having a system hard cap. If the system had a hard cap then who ever gets the most in the system before the limit is meet would likely win the fight.
Caviar Liberta
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#183 - 2013-08-01 01:33:04 UTC
Unsuccessful At Everything wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:


Or TiDi the entire game when it happens.


If this is implemented, remember you said this. Will be funny when you cry on the forums because your 1v1 in Scalding Pass got suddenly TiDi'd to hell because of a lovers quarrel in Fountain.



This has happened before. Random systems have seen TiDi pop in and out because of a fight somewhere in NULL.
Andski
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#184 - 2013-08-01 01:46:49 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
From the report on TMC :

Rather than having to clear bubbles and warp in 10% tidi, the CFC capital fleet chose to jump out of system, then jump to Zungen’s cyno, landing them directly on top of the NCdot fleet. In the non-tidi system, the caps calmly refit for cap and were able to reach jump cap while only a handful of game-seconds had passed in 4-EP.

I might understand it wrong but to me, this mean they jumped out of system then jumpad back in.


They jumped out and back in because a 10% tidi warp in a capital takes forever, not because of bubbles. If the station was bubbled they wouldn't have been able to jump out

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar

Frostys Virpio
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#185 - 2013-08-01 02:02:32 UTC
Andski wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
From the report on TMC :

Rather than having to clear bubbles and warp in 10% tidi, the CFC capital fleet chose to jump out of system, then jump to Zungen’s cyno, landing them directly on top of the NCdot fleet. In the non-tidi system, the caps calmly refit for cap and were able to reach jump cap while only a handful of game-seconds had passed in 4-EP.

I might understand it wrong but to me, this mean they jumped out of system then jumpad back in.


They jumped out and back in because a 10% tidi warp in a capital takes forever, not because of bubbles. If the station was bubbled they wouldn't have been able to jump out


I didn't know they also prevented jumping. I always learn in this place.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#186 - 2013-08-01 02:44:26 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Andski wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
From the report on TMC :

Rather than having to clear bubbles and warp in 10% tidi, the CFC capital fleet chose to jump out of system, then jump to Zungen’s cyno, landing them directly on top of the NCdot fleet. In the non-tidi system, the caps calmly refit for cap and were able to reach jump cap while only a handful of game-seconds had passed in 4-EP.

I might understand it wrong but to me, this mean they jumped out of system then jumpad back in.


They jumped out and back in because a 10% tidi warp in a capital takes forever, not because of bubbles. If the station was bubbled they wouldn't have been able to jump out


I didn't know they also prevented jumping. I always learn in this place.



You're doing it all wrong, smalls. This is the point at which you're meant to double down and insist that Capitals can jump right out of bubbles and call for a jump drive nerf.

This is GD. We have standards.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon

Frostys Virpio
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#187 - 2013-08-01 02:52:49 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Andski wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
From the report on TMC :

Rather than having to clear bubbles and warp in 10% tidi, the CFC capital fleet chose to jump out of system, then jump to Zungen’s cyno, landing them directly on top of the NCdot fleet. In the non-tidi system, the caps calmly refit for cap and were able to reach jump cap while only a handful of game-seconds had passed in 4-EP.

I might understand it wrong but to me, this mean they jumped out of system then jumpad back in.


They jumped out and back in because a 10% tidi warp in a capital takes forever, not because of bubbles. If the station was bubbled they wouldn't have been able to jump out


I didn't know they also prevented jumping. I always learn in this place.



You're doing it all wrong, smalls. This is the point at which you're meant to double down and insist that Capitals can jump right out of bubbles and call for a jump drive nerf.

This is GD. We have standards.


I sent money to some people after they made me learn something in here. I'm not your average GD poster.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#188 - 2013-08-01 02:59:11 UTC
Andski wrote:
If the station was bubbled they wouldn't have been able to jump out

Yeah, that was my original point. It sounded like FV was saying that they jumped out because the bubbles were preventing them from warping.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)

Alavaria Fera
Imperial Shipment
#189 - 2013-08-01 04:01:52 UTC
Well apparently the enemy bubbled in the wrong place or something like that. By the time they had gotten bubbles on the undock properly it was too late.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?

Sentamon
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#190 - 2013-08-01 06:09:53 UTC
TiDi allows for massive fights, which make headlines, which bring lots of new blood into the game. Might want to get used to it cause from a business standpoint, it's brilliant.

~ Professional Forum Alt  ~

Trii Seo
Goonswarm Federation
#191 - 2013-08-01 06:53:19 UTC
To be fair, TiDi tends to work both ways. Sometimes the ganking force can destroy its target before its friends can form up in heavy tidi, sometimes they get slowed down and lose it.

Either way, it makes big battles possible and is pretty cool - though really in 6VDT I think it was as tidi as it would ever get.

Proud pilot of the Imperium

Arek'Jaalan: Heliograph

Alfie Duckling
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#192 - 2013-08-01 08:46:17 UTC
Trii Seo wrote:
To be fair, TiDi tends to work both ways. Sometimes the ganking force can destroy its target before its friends can form up in heavy tidi, sometimes they get slowed down and lose it.

Either way, it makes big battles possible and is pretty cool - though really in 6VDT I think it was as tidi as it would ever get.


This.

I mean really, TiDi is by far the lesser of two evils.

www.Anquer-Quare.com - Recruitment open

Medarr
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#193 - 2013-08-01 10:21:16 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Medarr wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Apocryphal Noise wrote:
Put it this way, until they rewrite every line of code in something other than python, there's going to be lag.

It doesn't matter what language it's written in. You could write the whole thing in assembly, it'll still lag.

Uhm... No. Due to python they can only run one system on a CPU if you can run one system on _All_ CPUs it would have plenty of power.

…and you'll still have lag.


elaborate please. As i understand it eve peers with 3 tier 3 providers giving them ampel bandwidth to the cluster, their internal network uses infiniband ect. Is there a bottleneck somewhere that im missing or are you refering to the clients lagging due to massive amounts of asset rendering?
Onictus
SniggWaffe
Pandemic Horde
#194 - 2013-08-01 11:10:23 UTC
Medarr wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Medarr wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Apocryphal Noise wrote:
Put it this way, until they rewrite every line of code in something other than python, there's going to be lag.

It doesn't matter what language it's written in. You could write the whole thing in assembly, it'll still lag.

Uhm... No. Due to python they can only run one system on a CPU if you can run one system on _All_ CPUs it would have plenty of power.

…and you'll still have lag.


elaborate please. As i understand it eve peers with 3 tier 3 providers giving them ampel bandwidth to the cluster, their internal network uses infiniband ect. Is there a bottleneck somewhere that im missing or are you refering to the clients lagging due to massive amounts of asset rendering?


HS22 blades cap out around 650Ghz/s they advertise 1000gigE but the interface is a PCI daughter board and there its only so much the Northridge can take.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#195 - 2013-08-01 11:36:40 UTC  |  Edited by: RubyPorto
Medarr wrote:
elaborate please. As i understand it eve peers with 3 tier 3 providers giving them ampel bandwidth to the cluster, their internal network uses infiniband ect. Is there a bottleneck somewhere that im missing or are you refering to the clients lagging due to massive amounts of asset rendering?


If the server can handle 600 people without lagging out, each side will bring 600. Total of 1,200.
If the server can handle 2000 people without TiDi, each side will bring 2001. Total of 4,002.
If the server can handle 4000 people without TiDi, each side will bring 4001. Total of 8,002.
If the server can handle 20,000 people without TiDi, each side will (eventually) bring 20,001. Total of 40,002.

This has been the trend since... well, forever. There were actually tactics and fleet setups designed around the horrible nature of pre-tidi lag (ungroup guns, Alpha>Else (since everything effectively fires at the same rate), pack enough people in system first so you get to be the one shooting black-screened turkeys, etc), but fleets kept bringing more people because outnumbering your opponent is always advantageous if it's possible. TiDi is a graceful way to handle this trend.

External Bandwidth isn't the issue, and the problem with just throwing processing power at the problem is that the bottleneck is putting everything in the right order which, essentially, has to be single threaded by its nature.

There's a reason why complex simulations on supercomputers run hilariously slowly (a certain protein folding supercomputer node (of 512 cores) can run 17,000 nanoseconds of a 24,000 atom simulation in a full day**)*, and that's because getting the order right is critical.
EVE's 1 Hz simulation granularity and much simpler rules allow it to run much faster than that (thankfully) but a giant fight (where the number of particles to track probably approaches that 24,000 number) is still a remarkably complex simulation, and it's attempting to do this simulation in real time with random inputs coming in constantly from each particle.

*this is an incredibly simplistic comparison
**That's 60,000 days to complete 1 second of simulation***
***That's 165 years. Had this computer been around since the Mexican-American War, it would just now have completed 1 second of simulation.****
****Luckily, proteins fold absurdly quickly, so this isn't a big deal*****
*****footnote

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon

Mayhaw Morgan
State War Academy
Caldari State
#196 - 2013-08-01 13:12:52 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Tidi works against the larger side too.

- Their titan gets tackled
- Pings go out
- They all start undocking from the same station causing 10% tidi in their system but not [causing 10% TiDi] in the system where the titan is being killed
- Titan is killed before anyone is able to load grid after undocking, much less join fleet and travel to where it is and save it.


It's hard to imagine enough force to down a titan that quickly that doesn't cause some TiDi. It's also hard to imagine that the defenders of the titan would all log into the same system simultaneously and just sit around waiting while TiDi was rising and their titan was dying. I'd think they would start getting carrier groups into the non-TiDi engagement system to begin landing reps on their titan and to start pushing the TiDi meter in the engagement system towards that 10% mark.

Even in the scenario where there is no TiDi in the engagement system and massive TiDi in the defender's staging system, all that has to be done is to fleet the appropriate people in the staging system and get cyno's lit in the engagement system. If your titan dies before you can even do that, then odds are that TiDi wasn't the cause of your loss so much as the efficiency of the opposing force. The titan is SUPPOSED to die in that scenario.

The term is "hit-and-run". It's not "hit-and-stand-your-ground-while-the-opposition-musters-an-appropriately-sized-response-force", but that is effectively what TiDi makes a strike force do, stand their ground and face the response.

Is TiDi good? Is it necessary? Is it lag? I don't know, probably yes to all three. But when it comes to the question of "Is it fair?", the answer is pretty clear.
Alavaria Fera
Imperial Shipment
#197 - 2013-08-01 13:31:38 UTC
Surprise, if there's more fights, there's more unfair fights.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?

Kitty Baugh
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#198 - 2013-08-03 04:11:41 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Surprise, if there's more fights, there's more unfair fights.

Not rly.
Indica Dominant
Ascendance
Goonswarm Federation
#199 - 2013-08-03 09:43:01 UTC
Kitty Baugh wrote:
That's right, I said it.
I'll keep it pretty short:

Time dilation is gamebreaking for the smaller side, simply because it gives the bigger side 10x the time to ping and get people online.

Example:
-Fleet of 250 bumps titan out of POS
-Begins killing Titan, gets it to half armour before 100 of the enemy undock and warp to them
-System gets tidi'd to ****
-Before the fleet of 250 can finish killing the titan (Enemy fleet has no serious RR), Tidi goes to insane amounts
-Before the enemy titan or enemy fleet can even be further dented because of how slow it is, enemy sends a ping out and gets hundreds more people online
-More Tidi allows more people to get online
-The people who are much smaller, but would've gotten a monumental victory then lose because Tidi gave their opponents much more time to get online, get organized and get into the fight

Inb4hisecpropvpersjumponthisthread


you have 2 options for large fleet fights:

option 1: TIDI
option 2: the game stops working the fighting starts with more than a few hundred people involved.

Mayhaw Morgan
State War Academy
Caldari State
#200 - 2013-08-03 15:44:19 UTC
Indica Dominant wrote:
you have 2 options for large fleet fights:
option 1: TIDI
option 2: the game stops working the fighting starts with more than a few hundred people involved.


We only have 1 of those options, TiDi. And, TiDi is just another way of saying "the system by which the server handles lag". The server bends so that it doesn't break, but isn't it fair to wonder, after all that bending, whether or not the server hasn't just broken in a different way, as bent as it is?

Underneath that, of course, is the idea that large fleet fights are somehow necessary at all, which is itself . . . questionable.

Maybe we might wonder what the effect of imposing different limitations on players might be. For instance, instead of only allowing them to execute X number of commands per second, what would happen if there was just a hard (or soft) cap on the number of people allowed in a system? That would fix the problem, too. What would happen if the amount of HP for these structures was reduced, so that you didn't need 2000 players to take them down? What would happen if structures just died after you shot them enough, instead of becoming invulnerable and necessitating a second, pre-scheduled confrontation? What would happen if something like "sensor interference" prevented players from locking onto anything if there was more than X number of players on grid?

In no way is it a dilemma between complete failure of the system and TiDi; I think. Only CCP knows for certain, and with their special insight, they have chosen the current "system by which the server handles lag a.k.a. TiDi".

What's funny is that if players actually had a choice, I bet some of them would prefer that the server failed entirely rather than TiDi.