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Tidi is gamebreaking for the smaller side

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Author
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#101 - 2013-07-30 22:40:12 UTC  |  Edited by: RubyPorto
Murk Paradox wrote:
Latency is the time, lag is the result. Has nothing to do with a processor. Lag has to do with the connection you have to a host, the latency is the rate of time used to measure lag. If you are a hardware engineer, you should know this since you would be dealing with pings and packets for connectivity topologies.


Your definition of lag is simply not the same as everyone else's.

Wiki wrote:
In online gaming, lag is a noticeable delay between the action of players and the reaction of the server. Although lag may be caused by high latency, it may also occur due to insufficient processing power in the client and/or server.


EVE's pretty latency tolerant due to the 1 Hz simulation rate (a bad connection isn't likely to have a 1,000ms ping), so virtually all the Lag in EVE comes from insufficient processing power. In TiDi environments, EVE becomes incredibly latency tolerant, as the simulation rate drops do a floor of around .1Hz.

TiDi slows down the simulation to reduce the processing power needed to run the simulation to an amount that it has available. The server reacts to the player in the same tick it normally would (i.e. the tick after the command is received), so there is no delay introduced by TiDi.

If you're going to argue that anything that slows down gameplay is lag, you're simply using a different definition of the term than everyone else, and so you'll have to defend why that definition is better before continuing to use it. So, why do you define bullet-time in an FPS as lag?

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon

Medarr
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#102 - 2013-07-30 22:58:54 UTC
Sirane Elrek wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:
Now, in regards to slowdown tidi lag **** all, if I press a button and don't see a result, it's slowdown/tidi/lag/fuckallbadshit.

If you press a button and don't see a result, that's lag.

Murk Paradox wrote:
If I blackscreen from server overload and cannot press a button with immediate result it's slowdown/tidi/lag/fuckallbadshit.

If you blackscreen from server overload, that's lag.

If you have TiDi and no lag, you press a button and your result is still immediate. Your guns turn on when you press the button. They turn off when you press the button. Your ship starts locking other ships when you press the button.
Locking takes longer, and so do warps, and aligning, and most other actions. But the commands are still processed immediately.

The whole point of TiDi is to slow down the simulation so that the server has enough (wall clock) time per simulation tick to evaluate everything that should happen in that tick. This is in contrast to lag, where the server does not have enough time to calculate everything that should be happening in that tick, and defers some commands to a later tick.


He nailed it the rest of you trying to argue against his points are morons and should never accept a job in ICT.
Medarr
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#103 - 2013-07-30 23:02:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Medarr
Murk Paradox wrote:
Sirane Elrek wrote:
Onictus wrote:
Not a disruption, its a chance of rate, no more no less. The effect is that the node has 10 times as long to process calls and queries.

Granted we can still lag it after all of that, but its MUCH more reliable than pre-TiDi times.

We can call it lag all day long, but the fact is, when a node is just TiDi'ed, it will still process all entered commands in a timely fashion. Unlike lag, in which it doesn't and defers processing to a far later point in time.



Lag is the time from point a to point b to point a again.

The why and whatfors do not impact the fact it happens.

Sugar coating **** doesn't change what it is, only how it tastes before you start chewing.



Actually lag is caused by TCP sequence numbers being out of sync which causes the server to resend. This happens when packets get dropped along the route or when your router melts due to you raging on the EvE forums.

http://packetlife.net/blog/2010/jun/7/understanding-tcp-sequence-acknowledgment-numbers/

Go read before running your mouth boy

http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc0793.txt
tiberiusric
Comply Or Die
Fraternity.
#104 - 2013-07-30 23:32:34 UTC  |  Edited by: tiberiusric
RubyPorto wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:
Latency is the time, lag is the result. Has nothing to do with a processor. Lag has to do with the connection you have to a host, the latency is the rate of time used to measure lag. If you are a hardware engineer, you should know this since you would be dealing with pings and packets for connectivity topologies.


Your definition of lag is simply not the same as everyone else's.

Wiki wrote:
In online gaming, lag is a noticeable delay between the action of players and the reaction of the server. Although lag may be caused by high latency, it may also occur due to insufficient processing power in the client and/or server.


EVE's pretty latency tolerant due to the 1 Hz simulation rate (a bad connection isn't likely to have a 1,000ms ping), so virtually all the Lag in EVE comes from insufficient processing power. In TiDi environments, EVE becomes incredibly latency tolerant, as the simulation rate drops do a floor of around .1Hz.

TiDi slows down the simulation to reduce the processing power needed to run the simulation to an amount that it has available. The server reacts to the player in the same tick it normally would (i.e. the tick after the command is received), so there is no delay introduced by TiDi.

If you're going to argue that anything that slows down gameplay is lag, you're simply using a different definition of the term than everyone else, and so you'll have to defend why that definition is better before continuing to use it. So, why do you define bullet-time in an FPS as lag?


Personally I don't give 2 fs what you think the technical solution/answer/definition is, TO ME if something isn't reacting at the same time as as it should, or it's it's 'lagging behind' - TO ME it's lag. You can spout all the technical BS you like. In the real world to a player it's lag. And nothing you say will change my opinion of that.

I know I'll say to my clients, sorry sir it's not lag, cos some dumb eve player says its not, cos technically tis is why, don't worry your imagining its lag, because we purposely slow things down, so technically it's not lag.

You know what they would say? Get f.....d, that's what and stop taking me for an idiot. They would also say, I don't care what's going on server side, client side it's running like a dog, and severely lagging, and it's unusable, go fix it. No one ever in the commercial world would ever, ever put up with that excuse or solution. They would simply cancel the contract. But eve players just put up with it and think its a great solution. Doh

All my views are my own - never be afraid to post with your main, unless you're going to post some dumb shit

bloodknight2
Revenu.Quebec
#105 - 2013-07-30 23:45:34 UTC
If you hate lag and TiDi, go back in empire.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#106 - 2013-07-31 00:02:41 UTC
tiberiusric wrote:
Personally I don't give 2 fs what you think the technical solution/answer/definition is, TO ME if something isn't reacting at the same time as as it should, or it's it's 'lagging behind' - TO ME it's lag.
…and what TiDi does is ensure that stuff keeps reaction at the time it should and giving you the expected feedback on what's happening, as opposed to not doing anything or doing something at a completely different time than you expect or doing something without telling you.

Your not giving two effs about the technical definition is does not change that definition, nor does it change the fact that you're just flat out wrong if you equate slowdown with lag.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#107 - 2013-07-31 00:05:31 UTC
Oh yes, crashing to a black screen would have secured your victory. Roll

In a severe lag situation, this is what happens.

In a Tidi situation the commands get processed... everything happens slower but EVERYTHING HAPPENS.

Next time plan your gank to allow enough time for success, this includes the fact that Tidi will kick in before the game crashes on you. Anything less is a miscalculation on your part.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.

Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#108 - 2013-07-31 00:07:24 UTC
Quote:
Personally I don't give 2 fs what you think the technical solution/answer/definition is, TO ME if something isn't reacting at the same time as as it should, or it's it's 'lagging behind' - TO ME it's lag.


So what? It might be your opinion, but your opinion is still wrong.

Lag is by definition unintentional. TiDi is on purpose.

Seriously, go re-read what you just wrote, you sound like a whiny little child. Don't like the fact that they have to simulate things in 1/10ths time to handle the server load fairly? Tough. That's how it works, and it's the best solution to lag that any company to date has put in place. Well, that or just blame the user and have constant crashes, like pretty much every other major developer does.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Admiral Sarah Solette
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#109 - 2013-07-31 00:26:07 UTC
I'm in no way an expert on how the server mechanics work, so this may be comepletely wrong.

Would it be possible to tidi the entire server to a minimal amount rather than tiding a single node to a ridiculous ammount?

So instead of node A running at 90% tidi and the rest of the server having no tidi, node A and the rest of the server would run at 1% tidi. This would give both sides equal times to respond and would stop any complaints on the subject. It would also decrease server load, which is the purpose of tidi.

However like I said, I'm not an expert on the server mechanics so I could have the completely wrong idea. I have no idea if this is even possible with the way the nodes work.

Just my uninformed two cents.
Alavaria Fera
Imperial Shipment
#110 - 2013-07-31 00:29:16 UTC
Admiral Sarah Solette wrote:
I'm in no way an expert on how the server mechanics work, so this may be comepletely wrong.

Would it be possible to tidi the entire server to a minimal amount rather than tiding a single node to a ridiculous ammount?

So instead of node A running at 90% tidi and the rest of the server having no tidi, node A and the rest of the server would run at 1% tidi. This would give both sides equal times to respond and would stop any complaints on the subject. It would also decrease server load, which is the purpose of tidi.

However like I said, I'm not an expert on the server mechanics so I could have the completely wrong idea. I have no idea if this is even possible with the way the nodes work.

Just my uninformed two cents.

No, because EVE doesn't use parallel processing, you can't have multiple servers running the same thing. During 6VDT, the Jita node was not doing anything but running 6VDT, and that's the best hardware they have.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?

Medarr
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#111 - 2013-07-31 00:44:16 UTC
Admiral Sarah Solette wrote:
I'm in no way an expert on how the server mechanics work, so this may be comepletely wrong.

Would it be possible to tidi the entire server to a minimal amount rather than tiding a single node to a ridiculous ammount?

So instead of node A running at 90% tidi and the rest of the server having no tidi, node A and the rest of the server would run at 1% tidi. This would give both sides equal times to respond and would stop any complaints on the subject. It would also decrease server load, which is the purpose of tidi.

However like I said, I'm not an expert on the server mechanics so I could have the completely wrong idea. I have no idea if this is even possible with the way the nodes work.

Just my uninformed two cents.


You could probably tidi the whole server ( see what I did there ? ) but its not the issue. Each eve system runs on one CPU. Due to its programming language you can't put one system on more CPU's. So when a whole bunch of people start shooting the CPU maxes out and becomes unresponsive. This used to cause "lag" I.e. player actions got dropped by the CPU or were executed 10 mins later. Clients failed to load because the CPU simply didn't respond ect. Tidi slows down the game so the CPU can execute each command in the proper sequence I.e. player a shoots player b he does this before player b shoots back. So the CPU has to execute commands in that order not the other way around or not at all.

This is what tidi does. Now if you do that on the entire server cluster things such as buying a ship, fitting it, running missions or trading in jita would also slow down.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#112 - 2013-07-31 01:38:51 UTC
tiberiusric wrote:
Personally I don't give 2 fs what you think the technical solution/answer/definition is, TO ME if something isn't reacting at the same time as as it should, or it's it's 'lagging behind' - TO ME it's lag. You can spout all the technical BS you like. In the real world to a player it's lag. And nothing you say will change my opinion of that.


In TiDi, everything reacts at the same time that it should. That time is simply slowed down to prevent what happens in actual lag (i.e. dropped connections because the server doesn't have a cycle to read your client's message saying you're still there, dropped commands because the server pushes your "shoot the gun" command off until it has a moment then forgets it, blackscreens on loading grid because the server doesn't have time to even send your client data, having your ship shoot off grid at an absurd speed instead of exploding because the server can't handle a ship explosion right now).

Under TiDi, everything continues to run normally, just at a reduced rate. In high lag environments, the server tries to do things at the normal rate and catastrophically fails at it.

Quote:
I know I'll say to my clients, sorry sir it's not lag, cos some dumb eve player says its not, cos technically tis is why, don't worry your imagining its lag, because we purposely slow things down, so technically it's not lag.


"Sir, to ensure that your obligate single-threaded data is processed correctly, we've had to reduce the rate at which each change is processed."
If you actually have "clients" for real-time data processing, I weep for them.

Quote:
You know what they would say? Get f.....d, that's what and stop taking me for an idiot. They would also say, I don't care what's going on server side, client side it's running like a dog, and severely lagging, and it's unusable, go fix it. No one ever in the commercial world would ever, ever put up with that excuse or solution. They would simply cancel the contract. But eve players just put up with it and think its a great solution. Doh


CCP did fix it. TiDi runs great, just slowly. Before TiDi, highly stressed systems ran like crap (see above examples).

Anton, a supercomputer running protein folding simulations can handle simulating 17,000 nanoseconds of simulation each day per 512-core node. That's a TiDi factor of 1.9*10^-8%. Are scientists pulling contracts with their supercomputer provider because of TiDi? No, because the recognize that correct simulation is the top priority.

In EVE, TiDi is in place because correct simulation is one of the top priorities. The 10% limit is in place because correct simulation is not the only priority.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon

Nexus Day
Lustrevik Trade and Travel Bureau
#113 - 2013-07-31 01:58:32 UTC
I heard more than a mouthful of Tidi is wasted.
Alavaria Fera
Imperial Shipment
#114 - 2013-07-31 02:20:02 UTC
So people are whining about TiDi now, because NC. forgot to take into account an important game mechanic.

Ok.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?

RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#115 - 2013-07-31 02:48:22 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
So people are whining about TiDi now, because NC. forgot to take into account an important game mechanic.

Ok.



How to get all of EVE on your side, A forum Guide:
1) Pick a fight with Goonswarm/the CFC
2) Lose a battle/miss a kill
3) ????
4) Profit

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon

Apocryphal Noise
The Harpooner's Rest
#116 - 2013-07-31 02:56:00 UTC
Haha, you got the erebus to 60% armor, it wasn't even remotely close. Perfectly executed? AHAHHAHAHAHAH

You didn't commit enough dreads anyway if you wanted to kill a titan in goon staging.
Alavaria Fera
Imperial Shipment
#117 - 2013-07-31 03:11:42 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:
Alavaria Fera wrote:
So people are whining about TiDi now, because NC. forgot to take into account an important game mechanic.

Ok.

How to get all of EVE on your side, A forum Guide:
1) Pick a fight with Goonswarm/the CFC
2) Lose a battle/miss a kill
3) ????
4) Profit

Yep, TEST had us right where they wanted us. They had the elite Pandemic Legion, and the forces of N3, who exist to kill the CFC, on their side almost instantly when we fell into their trap and invaded Fountain.

And Tribe. They had BL as well, but you know, we cheated and paid them more.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?

Alavaria Fera
Imperial Shipment
#118 - 2013-07-31 03:13:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Alavaria Fera
Apocryphal Noise wrote:
Haha, you got the erebus to 60% armor, it wasn't even remotely close. Perfectly executed? AHAHHAHAHAHAH

You didn't commit enough dreads anyway if you wanted to kill a titan in goon staging.

I think it reached like 50%, so give them the credit for that.

I was one of the first armor carriers to get there, I think the titan was at like 50% when I had locked it and started throwing reps. Pretty good that he HAD A CYNO. Unlike, you know, that Li3 titan, who did not have a cyno....


There was an amusing badly done MSPaint edit showing the titan in 5% structure or something. Very badly done.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?

Kossaw
Body Count Inc.
#119 - 2013-07-31 04:01:19 UTC
tiberiusric wrote:
Youre bad for saying technology aint here yet lol. Try optimising code, trying optimising databases, try adding more hardware, try harder. Oh and we used to have massive fights before tidi came in just fyi


You really are completely f***ing clueless aren't you.

WTB : An image in my signature

Alavaria Fera
Imperial Shipment
#120 - 2013-07-31 05:01:48 UTC
Laserak wrote:
If I was planning this in my mind I would:

#1 Bubble the undock so carriers cant jump

#2 Titans and supers are gonna log in, we need drags so they cant warp to the distressed party

#3 They may jump out and jump back to the tackled titans cyno, where will they jump to? We need a gang there with dics and hics

#4 We need enough dps onfield quickly before a response fleet can form, warp to engagement and burn through drags

#5 Need exit cyno for dreads and extraction plan for subcaps

tl;dr you flubbed it keep trying though

Well honestly, the dreads were in siege and by the time they came out of it they were bubbled. Though some dreads at the edge did get away (the actually warped off, though - so either they had no exit cyno or were not at jump cap).

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?