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Tidi is gamebreaking for the smaller side

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tiberiusric
Comply Or Die
Pandemic Horde
#41 - 2013-07-30 18:55:22 UTC
Onictus wrote:
tiberiusric wrote:
Tippia wrote:
tiberiusric wrote:
Are you mad?, what do you think TIDI is? its just lag with an official name. It doesnt help one bit
So you don't think that keeping the game running and working in a predictable and consistent matter counts as “helping” compared to the alternative of the game shutting down and/or no longer being predictable?

No. TiDi is not lag with an official name. It's controlled and graceful degradation of the world simulation, specifically to avoid the inconsistencies, unresponsiveness, and unpredictability of actual lag.

Quote:
Youre bad for saying technology aint here yet lol. Try optimising code, trying optimising databases, try adding more hardware, try harder
They did that. TiDi was first the solution to come out of it.


Tippia listen, open those ears and listen. How do you think that waiting 20/30 mins for 'something to happen' is any better than how it was before? Its exactly the same as it was before!!

It's controlled and graceful degradation of the world simulation? Its still bloody lag you total idiot.

and yes it is lag with an official name, thats my opinion if you dont like that opinion you can shove it where the sun dont shine sunny.


Nice sperg, you are either being willingly blind or you never saw a 900 man battle before tidi.

It isn't close to the same thing.


No your right, i havent been involved in it at all.....Roll Your right, tidi as made it so much better....Roll

All my views are my own - never be afraid to post with your main, unless you're going to post some dumb shit
Innominate
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#42 - 2013-07-30 18:55:28 UTC
TiDi sucks.

The alternative is far worse. Tidi goes into play when the server is unable to keep up with the load. Without TiDi, the game starts dropping calls, losing players, damage, module activation, etc. Server behavior becomes unpredictable and ends up with people getting randomly screwed over for losing the server lottery. You get people with working guns shooting at people who are still looking at black screens.

TiDi on the other hand still sucks. But it sucks predictably and fairly.

TiDi is the best thing to happen to large fleet battles, even though it is the entire cause of Asakai style battles. In the end this might not be a bad thing.
Moostang
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#43 - 2013-07-30 18:57:54 UTC
What about the titan you all killed of ours after the 6vdt fight? We, the bigger side, couldn't save that one because Tidi kicked in while we were trying to log into 4-ep while you all had no tidi. I started logging in before the ping went out but by the time I landed from the initial log-in-warp, the titan was dead.

I prefer tidi over the alternative. Before tidi our clients wouldn't update, guns wouldn't fire, killed ships would still be alive and shooting back at you with 0 armor/structure/shields...not counting the node crashes, the inability to login, and the blackscreens that would prevent the fights from happening at all.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#44 - 2013-07-30 18:57:58 UTC
tiberiusric wrote:
Right.... OK.... that proves everything then....dear oh dear
It proves a hell of a lot more than just stomping your feet and yelling “it's not working because I say so” and not being able to point to… well… anything, really.
Dismas Ofstedal
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#45 - 2013-07-30 18:58:27 UTC
Tidi is a method for managing lag without crashing the servers. Fact of life. Get over it.

But here's a thought. While the enemy is rallying in real time to save the titan, why aren't you rallying in real time to fill your fleet? Seems the field is still level.
Antir
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#46 - 2013-07-30 18:58:29 UTC
tiberiusric wrote:
Tippia wrote:
tiberiusric wrote:
Are you mad?, what do you think TIDI is? its just lag with an official name. It doesnt help one bit
So you don't think that keeping the game running and working in a predictable and consistent matter counts as “helping” compared to the alternative of the game shutting down and/or no longer being predictable?

No. TiDi is not lag with an official name. It's controlled and graceful degradation of the world simulation, specifically to avoid the inconsistencies, unresponsiveness, and unpredictability of actual lag.

Quote:
Youre bad for saying technology aint here yet lol. Try optimising code, trying optimising databases, try adding more hardware, try harder
They did that. TiDi was first the solution to come out of it.


Tippia listen, open those ears and listen. How do you think that waiting 20/30 mins for 'something to happen' is any better than how it was before? Its exactly the same as it was before!!

It's controlled and graceful degradation of the world simulation? Its still bloody lag you total idiot.

and yes it is lag with an official name, thats my opinion if you dont like that opinion you can shove it where the sun dont shine sunny.


Lag is very different to TiDi, in lag commands are randomaly lost, in TiDi they just take longer to occur. I have fought in large fleet fights pre TiDi and I can tell you 6vdt ran better than any of them (the battle of pnqy when taking fountain from IT comes to mind). I was able to load system, cycle all my modules and see what was going on. TiDi is a bandaid but it makes the unplayable playable and even.
Mr R4nd0m
Doomheim
#47 - 2013-07-30 19:07:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Mr R4nd0m
Antir wrote:
tiberiusric wrote:
Tippia wrote:
tiberiusric wrote:
Are you mad?, what do you think TIDI is? its just lag with an official name. It doesnt help one bit
So you don't think that keeping the game running and working in a predictable and consistent matter counts as “helping” compared to the alternative of the game shutting down and/or no longer being predictable?

No. TiDi is not lag with an official name. It's controlled and graceful degradation of the world simulation, specifically to avoid the inconsistencies, unresponsiveness, and unpredictability of actual lag.

Quote:
Youre bad for saying technology aint here yet lol. Try optimising code, trying optimising databases, try adding more hardware, try harder
They did that. TiDi was first the solution to come out of it.


Tippia listen, open those ears and listen. How do you think that waiting 20/30 mins for 'something to happen' is any better than how it was before? Its exactly the same as it was before!!

It's controlled and graceful degradation of the world simulation? Its still bloody lag you total idiot.

and yes it is lag with an official name, thats my opinion if you dont like that opinion you can shove it where the sun dont shine sunny.


Lag is very different to TiDi, in lag commands are randomaly lost, in TiDi they just take longer to occur. I have fought in large fleet fights pre TiDi and I can tell you 6vdt ran better than any of them (the battle of pnqy when taking fountain from IT comes to mind). I was able to load system, cycle all my modules and see what was going on. TiDi is a bandaid but it makes the unplayable playable and even.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lag

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lag_(online_gaming)

i would be interested to know how tidi IS different?
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#48 - 2013-07-30 19:13:40 UTC
Mr R4nd0m wrote:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lag_(online_gaming)

i would be interested to know how tidi IS different?
Well, just going by this sentence at the very beginning: “[a]lthough lag may be caused by high latency, it may also occur due to insufficient processing power in the client and/or server” — the difference is that TiDi ensures that there is sufficient processing power, and it is a separate issue from latency…

…not that you should have many latency issues during multi-second server ticks anyway.
Mr R4nd0m
Doomheim
#49 - 2013-07-30 19:15:34 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Mr R4nd0m wrote:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lag_(online_gaming)

i would be interested to know how tidi IS different?
Well, just going by this sentence at the very beginning: “[a]lthough lag may be caused by high latency, it may also occur due to insufficient processing power in the client and/or server” — the difference is that TiDi ensures that there is sufficient processing power, and it is a separate issue from latency…

…not that you should have many latency issues during multi-second server ticks anyway.


Perhaps you should read the rest of the articles
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#50 - 2013-07-30 19:16:33 UTC
TiDi seems maddening.

But I have seen it described more times than I can recall how people would fly into a fleet battle, get a black screen once they got on grid, and then clone vat.

Bring back DEEEEP Space!
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#51 - 2013-07-30 19:18:34 UTC
Unsuccessful At Everything wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:


Or TiDi the entire game when it happens.


If this is implemented, remember you said this. Will be funny when you cry on the forums because your 1v1 in Scalding Pass got suddenly TiDi'd to hell because of a lovers quarrel in Fountain.



Everytime fountain TiDi's we get affected in Syndicate... I'm not sure how it would be different it it was game wide like it should be.

/shrug

As it is what I know now as fact, I will try to remember it since it's the Solution(TM).

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#52 - 2013-07-30 19:22:46 UTC
Tippia wrote:
tiberiusric wrote:
Are you mad?, what do you think TIDI is? its just lag with an official name. It doesnt help one bit
So you don't think that keeping the game running and working in a predictable and consistent matter counts as “helping” compared to the alternative of the game shutting down and/or no longer being predictable?

No. TiDi is not lag with an official name. It's controlled and graceful degradation of the world simulation, specifically to avoid the inconsistencies, unresponsiveness, and unpredictability of actual lag.

Quote:
Youre bad for saying technology aint here yet lol. Try optimising code, trying optimising databases, try adding more hardware, try harder
They did that. TiDi was first the solution to come out of it.



If I can hear someone saying they are pressing a button over comms and 20 minutes later I can see the action start to happen... that's lag.

It's not enough. It's not a fix. It's not the answer.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Mr R4nd0m
Doomheim
#53 - 2013-07-30 19:23:20 UTC
Murk Paradox wrote:
Tippia wrote:
tiberiusric wrote:
Are you mad?, what do you think TIDI is? its just lag with an official name. It doesnt help one bit
So you don't think that keeping the game running and working in a predictable and consistent matter counts as “helping” compared to the alternative of the game shutting down and/or no longer being predictable?

No. TiDi is not lag with an official name. It's controlled and graceful degradation of the world simulation, specifically to avoid the inconsistencies, unresponsiveness, and unpredictability of actual lag.

Quote:
Youre bad for saying technology aint here yet lol. Try optimising code, trying optimising databases, try adding more hardware, try harder
They did that. TiDi was first the solution to come out of it.



If I can hear someone saying they are pressing a button over comms and 20 minutes later I can see the action start to happen... that's lag.

It's not enough. It's not a fix. It's not the answer.


Amen!
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#54 - 2013-07-30 19:28:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Mr R4nd0m wrote:
Perhaps you should read the rest of the articles
You mean things like “Lag causes numerous problems for issues such as accurate rendering of the game state and hit detection. In many games, lag is often frowned upon because it disrupts normal gameplay”, which is exactly the kind of thing TiDi removes?

Or “Lag caused by an insufficient update rate between client and server can cause some problems, but these are generally limited to the client itself. Other players may notice jerky movement and similar problems for the affected client, but the real problem lies with the client itself”, which, as mentioned, is mainly a client problem, but which is something TiDi alleviates as well?

Or “Conversely, the same [a low frame rate would make the game less responsive to updates and may force it to skip outdated data] hold true for the server. The frame rate (or tick rate) of the server determines how often it can process data from clients and send updates. This type of problem is difficult to predict and compensate for”, which is exactly that TiDi is compensating for?

Or “Lag causes numerous problems for issues such as accurate rendering of the game state and hit detection”, which is exactly what TiDi avoids?

Or “Lag caused by an insufficient update rate between client and server can cause some problems, but these are generally limited to the client itself”, which is avoided by the way TiDi is handled in the client?

Or “The main purpose of server-side lag compensation is instead to provide accurate effects of client actions”, which is exactly what TiDi does?

So, yeah… the difference is (still) that TiDi ensures that there is sufficient processing power, so that none of those lag-related problems arise.

Murk Paradox wrote:
If I can hear someone saying they are pressing a button over comms and 20 minutes later I can see the action start to happen... that's lag.
Sounds more like slowdown to me — you know, the thing that TiDi replaces actual lag effects with?
Sarah McKnobbo
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#55 - 2013-07-30 19:35:53 UTC
Kitty Baugh wrote:

Time dilation is gamebreaking for the smaller side, simply because it gives the bigger side 10x the time to ping and get people online.


Umm CFC lost a titan the other day and TiDi worked against them, slowing their logging, forming and reacting so, no, not really.

And the failed titan gank was more to do with the fact it was in a staging system, allowing quick response time for the rescuers.
Din Chao
#56 - 2013-07-30 19:36:29 UTC
Solution: Don't be the smaller side.
Kitty Baugh
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#57 - 2013-07-30 19:39:03 UTC
Sarah McKnobbo wrote:
Kitty Baugh wrote:

Time dilation is gamebreaking for the smaller side, simply because it gives the bigger side 10x the time to ping and get people online.


Umm CFC lost a titan the other day and TiDi worked against them, slowing their logging, forming and reacting so, no, not really.

And the failed titan gank was more to do with the fact it was in a staging system, allowing quick response time for the rescuers.

Stop talking about last nights failed titan gank please
my original post was an example of how Tidi works against smaller forces
Lord Charles Gatsby
Doomheim
#58 - 2013-07-30 19:40:11 UTC
What is so great about fountain anyhow ? im making billions every day in Jita Amarr and Rens on trades.


Dont be a slave too your 0.0 overlords who expect you to give up your time to defend Thier assets: thier moons thier intrests.

Dont work for someone else's dreams.

Kitty Baugh
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#59 - 2013-07-30 19:41:17 UTC
Lord Charles Gatsby wrote:
What is so great about fountain anyhow ? im making billions every day in Jita Amarr and Rens on trades.


Dont be a slave too your 0.0 overlords who expect you to give up your time to defend Thier assets: thier moons thier intrests.

Dont work for someone else's dreams.


Stop derailing the thread
This is not about fountain or the events of the fountain conflict, there are other threads about them and you should go there to discuss them, not here.

This thread is about Tidi and its effects on those fighting under it.
Sarah McKnobbo
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#60 - 2013-07-30 19:42:24 UTC
Murk Paradox wrote:
If I can hear someone saying they are pressing a button over comms and 20 minutes later I can see the action start to happen... that's TiDi.

It's not enough. It's not a fix. It's the best currently available answer.


FTFY

TiDi isn't lag. Lag suggests the client and server are out of sync. This doesnt happen with TiDi.