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Raise the Black Flag...

Author
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#1 - 2013-07-29 16:43:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Nikk Narrel
Marauder, a name to designate a raider or attacker.

What if it let you conceal your identity, or assume a specific alter ego?

Example: Bob Ratsalot skills up his Marauder, and when he activates the conceal function, his name and identity become Blackbeard the Pirate!
A seperate corp identity could be placed, like a villain's mask to conceal the identity.

Oh no, it's the dreaded Blood Nebula fleet!


After all, this is a sandbox, and creating more options for play honestly is really good design.
(You may be a hero to some, but never to all)

Lead the double life, be a Marauder.

Update: I left out one of the key parts of this, mistakenly forgetting I had posted it in a different location.
TY Mike Voidstar for jogging my memory on this!

Specifically:
The price for this? In the event the ship is destroyed, the pod is NOT ejected, but destroyed along with the ship. This preserves the anonymity of the pilot.
Zakeus Djinn
Who Called In The Fleet
#2 - 2013-07-29 16:56:00 UTC
I like where you're going with this, but maybe something like an implant would be better suited for it than a ship class.
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#3 - 2013-07-29 17:05:26 UTC
Zakeus Djinn wrote:
I like where you're going with this, but maybe something like an implant would be better suited for it than a ship class.

I get it, something that you have on a jump clone perhaps, so that when you JC into it you effectively change identities.

That is another potential path for this, true.

I am looking to add functionality to the Marauder class specifically here.

Their could be more than one way to do this.
Miranda Ctan
Radex Solutions
#4 - 2013-07-29 17:13:50 UTC
Zakeus Djinn wrote:
I like where you're going with this, but maybe something like an implant would be better suited for it than a ship class.


Tie this in with my corpse salvage idea - https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=263793&find=unread

Allow the salvage of identification chips from corpses, and use them either in player-built clones, or as implants to allow you to impersonate others, or at the very least conceal your own identity.
Mag's
Azn Empire
#5 - 2013-07-29 17:19:11 UTC
I'd like to be SpongeBob SquarePants. Lol

This idea may have legs. Cool

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.

Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#6 - 2013-07-29 17:20:06 UTC
Miranda Ctan wrote:
Zakeus Djinn wrote:
I like where you're going with this, but maybe something like an implant would be better suited for it than a ship class.


Tie this in with my corpse salvage idea - https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=263793&find=unread

Allow the salvage of identification chips from corpses, and use them either in player-built clones, or as implants to allow you to impersonate others, or at the very least conceal your own identity.

That is very interesting indeed.

Obviously there should be multiple methods to identity concealment.
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#7 - 2013-07-30 13:39:37 UTC
EVE is a conflict driven game, on many levels.

Accountability, on the other hand, extends the consequences of your actions into an unforeseeable future. The opponent you attack today may gain unexpected means to counter you later.

We want this to happen, but we do not want a monogamous relationship from it.

We want the people you upset to become psychopathic serial killers, bent on attacking anything that even vaguely resembles you.

For this, we need a degree of uncertainty all around, a desire to launch preemptive strikes against everyone you don't trust.
Because you know you can trust a smoking wreck to not shoot you. Make them all into smoking wrecks, and be safe.

So, if we deny the people you attack information on your specific identity, they then can be released from the obligation of debt to strike at you specifically. They can enjoy striking at everyone in general.

Big smile
Aquila Sagitta
Blue-Fire
#8 - 2013-07-30 14:07:37 UTC
Miranda Ctan wrote:
Zakeus Djinn wrote:
I like where you're going with this, but maybe something like an implant would be better suited for it than a ship class.


Tie this in with my corpse salvage idea - https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=263793&find=unread

Allow the salvage of identification chips from corpses, and use them either in player-built clones, or as implants to allow you to impersonate others, or at the very least conceal your own identity.


Afaik impersonating other players is against the EULA
Tchulen
Trumpets and Bookmarks
#9 - 2013-07-30 14:46:03 UTC
I'm really in two minds about this.

On one hand, I really don't like anything that allows people to avoid the consequences of their actions.

On the other hand, it could actually act as a counter to the ever increasing size of corps and alliances and the prevalence of numbers winning wars. If the larger you got the more likely you were to have what amounts to anonymous awoxers it could limit the speed of growth and also the max number of people you'd want in your corp. It might. I'm not saying it necessarily would.

If you could extract the real identity of the character from their corpse I think that might be sufficient counter. If someone preyed on their corp/alliance a lot they would eventually get bait trapped and killed which would end their reign of terror and allow their corp/alliance some defence against continuous and unknown awoxing.
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#10 - 2013-07-30 15:04:38 UTC
Tchulen wrote:
I'm really in two minds about this.

On one hand, I really don't like anything that allows people to avoid the consequences of their actions.

On the other hand, it could actually act as a counter to the ever increasing size of corps and alliances and the prevalence of numbers winning wars. If the larger you got the more likely you were to have what amounts to anonymous awoxers it could limit the speed of growth and also the max number of people you'd want in your corp. It might. I'm not saying it necessarily would.

If you could extract the real identity of the character from their corpse I think that might be sufficient counter. If someone preyed on their corp/alliance a lot they would eventually get bait trapped and killed which would end their reign of terror and allow their corp/alliance some defence against continuous and unknown awoxing.

Awoxing is really just a single aspect of this.

There is an inherent deterrent against corps and alliances from attacking others, in the cases where they can be traced back and repaid in kind.
For groups too small to target, they are often too small to be significant.
For groups big enough to be significant, they often have too much at risk. Thus preventing them from taking action.

In order to field a capable task force to inflict damage, the consequences must be accepted.

As a result, noone attacks a target bigger than themselves in expected combat ability.
The fewer groups bigger than you, the more stable you are.

Stable is bad in a game based around competition.

Anything too stable, and competition ceases to exist around it.
Tchulen
Trumpets and Bookmarks
#11 - 2013-07-30 15:16:48 UTC
And yet, with all the secure havens there are, fights of all sizes still happen and the underdogs still win some.

I understand what you mean regarding allowing small groups to attack larger groups without fear of reprisals but I simply don't agree with it. The consequences should be considered prior to initiating aggression against another entity in EVE. You want to poke the bear with a stick you should expect it to eventually turn round and tear your head off.

This is why a fair number of nullsec entities actively don't take sov. It's so they can poke those bears as much as they want and melt away into another area of space. They have nothing the bear can stomp on and so have considered the consequences of their intended actions and mitigated a large amount of the risks.

This is what EVE is currently and in my mind should continue to be. Risk and consequence.

Removing the consequence will cause far more bad than good for the game overall, in my opinion.

That said, if the identity could be discovered some way, even if only with a slim chance per meeting, I'd see it as more of a valid addition. With absolutely no way for anyone to know who the character was it would be a very negative change for the game. Full and complete anonymity isn't something I could condone.
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#12 - 2013-07-30 15:32:23 UTC
Tchulen wrote:
And yet, with all the secure havens there are, fights of all sizes still happen and the underdogs still win some.

I understand what you mean regarding allowing small groups to attack larger groups without fear of reprisals but I simply don't agree with it. The consequences should be considered prior to initiating aggression against another entity in EVE. You want to poke the bear with a stick you should expect it to eventually turn round and tear your head off.

This is why a fair number of nullsec entities actively don't take sov. It's so they can poke those bears as much as they want and melt away into another area of space. They have nothing the bear can stomp on and so have considered the consequences of their intended actions and mitigated a large amount of the risks.

This is what EVE is currently and in my mind should continue to be. Risk and consequence.

Removing the consequence will cause far more bad than good for the game overall, in my opinion.

That said, if the identity could be discovered some way, even if only with a slim chance per meeting, I'd see it as more of a valid addition. With absolutely no way for anyone to know who the character was it would be a very negative change for the game. Full and complete anonymity isn't something I could condone.

You are pointing out very specific exceptions to the general pattern of sov holding.

As a general rule, the limits to growth of such a group that doesn't hold sov, keep them from becoming a genuine threat to larger groups who do hold sov.
They fit, sadly, under:
"For groups too small to target, they are often too small to be significant."

They just don't get big enough to be more than an annoyance, without the resources required that holding sov brings.

Now, you are pointing out good and valid details, but I must question whether you have considered the balancing points.

You cannot anonymously take space.
You don't get kills, which means you also don't get credit.

You can harass someone as much as you like anonymously, but you cannot remain anonymous while taking sov or credit for your actions.
Tchulen
Trumpets and Bookmarks
#13 - 2013-07-31 07:38:59 UTC
Nikk Narrel wrote:
Now, you are pointing out good and valid details, but I must question whether you have considered the balancing points.

You cannot anonymously take space.
You don't get kills, which means you also don't get credit.

You can harass someone as much as you like anonymously, but you cannot remain anonymous while taking sov or credit for your actions.


Hmm... Yes, I hadn't taken those points into account with the weight that they deserve. They do somewhat mitigate my concerns although I do think there should be at least some risk to using an anonymising system. I really do think there should be some chance, however small, that if you get killed your corpse's anonymity is lost. Even if its 1% of the time (on pod death) it means there is an element of risk and the possibility, no matter how remote, of there being a potential consequence.
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#14 - 2013-07-31 13:25:06 UTC
Tchulen wrote:
Nikk Narrel wrote:
Now, you are pointing out good and valid details, but I must question whether you have considered the balancing points.

You cannot anonymously take space.
You don't get kills, which means you also don't get credit.

You can harass someone as much as you like anonymously, but you cannot remain anonymous while taking sov or credit for your actions.


Hmm... Yes, I hadn't taken those points into account with the weight that they deserve. They do somewhat mitigate my concerns although I do think there should be at least some risk to using an anonymising system. I really do think there should be some chance, however small, that if you get killed your corpse's anonymity is lost. Even if its 1% of the time (on pod death) it means there is an element of risk and the possibility, no matter how remote, of there being a potential consequence.

Pilot error.

Like a comic book character who changes costume before an unseen witness, those who see you use the mechanism to alter your identity may eventually realize what happened.
They may also notice you are never online at the same time, if they consider that means to test the possibility.

Plus, the number one tip for any action, realizing that those with a genuine motive for actions are limited. It makes creating a list of those responsible for actions, if not for the actions themselves, a logical process of elimination.
Velicitia
XS Tech
#15 - 2013-07-31 13:39:35 UTC
Nikk Narrel wrote:

As a general rule, the limits to growth of such a group that doesn't hold sov, keep them from becoming a genuine threat to larger groups who do hold sov.
They fit, sadly, under:
"For groups too small to target, they are often too small to be significant."


Counter to this statement: Pandemic Legion.



One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia

Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#16 - 2013-07-31 13:47:52 UTC
Velicitia wrote:
Nikk Narrel wrote:

As a general rule, the limits to growth of such a group that doesn't hold sov, keep them from becoming a genuine threat to larger groups who do hold sov.
They fit, sadly, under:
"For groups too small to target, they are often too small to be significant."


Counter to this statement: Pandemic Legion.

Counter to that statement: I said often, not always.

I tend to avoid absolute statements where the logic allows for exceptions.

That being said, I presume you are implying they are a threat to larger groups who do hold sov, and yet they hold no sov of their own.

http://evemaps.dotlan.net/alliance/Pandemic_Legion

I am showing 21 systems with 7 outposts under their banner.

Still, I admire the concept that a non sov holding entity could exist on that level, even if evidence suggests this is not that group.
Randy Wray
Warcrows
Sedition.
#17 - 2013-07-31 15:45:47 UTC
There is actually a way to change identity in eve - alts is what they're called.

Sorry but I had to poop on your party.

Solo Pvper in all areas of space including wormhole space. Check out my youtube channel @ http://www.youtube.com/channel/UCd6M3xV43Af-3E1ds0tTyew/feed for mostly small scale pvp in lowsec/nullsec

twitch.tv/randywray

Velicitia
XS Tech
#18 - 2013-07-31 15:57:56 UTC
Nikk Narrel wrote:
Velicitia wrote:
Nikk Narrel wrote:

As a general rule, the limits to growth of such a group that doesn't hold sov, keep them from becoming a genuine threat to larger groups who do hold sov.
They fit, sadly, under:
"For groups too small to target, they are often too small to be significant."


Counter to this statement: Pandemic Legion.

Counter to that statement: I said often, not always.

I tend to avoid absolute statements where the logic allows for exceptions.

That being said, I presume you are implying they are a threat to larger groups who do hold sov, and yet they hold no sov of their own.

http://evemaps.dotlan.net/alliance/Pandemic_Legion

I am showing 21 systems with 7 outposts under their banner.

Still, I admire the concept that a non sov holding entity could exist on that level, even if evidence suggests this is not that group.


Quoted too much in my OP -- meant to cut that "groups too small to target" bit out, since PL isn't exactly "small". Though the "big boys" in teh sov-holding game are approximately from 2-6x the size of PL -- Goonswarm [CONDI] has 9k members, [TEST] has 12k, NCDOT (plus Northern Associates) is 5k ... and then there's always their allies to think about.

PL hasn't held Sov until just about 6 months ago (oldest Sov is U-H in Kavela Expanse, for 176 days).

Catch, Geminate, Immensea, Oasa, The Kavela Expanse - 1 system
Malpais, Perrigen Falls, Scalding Pass - 2 systems (none in same constellation)
The Spire - 3 systems, none in same constellation
Etherium Reach - 7 systems in 6 constellations

If you actually look up the systems on the map, you'll see that they're pretty spread out, to the point where each of their systems is its own little stronghold, without any neighboring systems held by PL (shortest looks ~2 jumps).


Anyway, getting back to the topic at hand ... I like the original idea that the "bonus" of the ship would be that it could conceal the true name of the pilot in it.

I mean no one would surrender to the Dread Pirate Nick ...

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia

Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#19 - 2013-07-31 16:03:35 UTC
Randy Wray wrote:
There is actually a way to change identity in eve - alts is what they're called.

Sorry but I had to poop on your party.

Oh, no worries mate, that did nothing to diminish the idea presented here.

Frankly the concept is obvious to the point of my questioning why you would bring it up, even?
We can all make alts, CCP even urges the use of multiple accounts.

That has nothing to do with this concept, which is the use of a character without exposing it's identity.
This means you can have no recorded credit, nor claim sov, through the actions made when thus disguised.

The price tag, for this version of identity concealment being the use of a ship in the Marauder class.
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#20 - 2013-07-31 16:14:08 UTC
Velicitia wrote:
Quoted too much in my OP -- meant to cut that "groups too small to target" bit out, since PL isn't exactly "small". Though the "big boys" in teh sov-holding game are approximately from 2-6x the size of PL -- Goonswarm [CONDI] has 9k members, [TEST] has 12k, NCDOT (plus Northern Associates) is 5k ... and then there's always their allies to think about.

PL hasn't held Sov until just about 6 months ago (oldest Sov is U-H in Kavela Expanse, for 176 days).

Catch, Geminate, Immensea, Oasa, The Kavela Expanse - 1 system
Malpais, Perrigen Falls, Scalding Pass - 2 systems (none in same constellation)
The Spire - 3 systems, none in same constellation
Etherium Reach - 7 systems in 6 constellations

If you actually look up the systems on the map, you'll see that they're pretty spread out, to the point where each of their systems is its own little stronghold, without any neighboring systems held by PL (shortest looks ~2 jumps).


Anyway, getting back to the topic at hand ... I like the original idea that the "bonus" of the ship would be that it could conceal the true name of the pilot in it.

I mean no one would surrender to the Dread Pirate Nick ...

Dread Pirate Nick... I do like that! Yarrr.... lol
Lol

This is something that has an impact most threatening to larger groups, for two reasons.

One: they are statistically the biggest targets, assuming a player goes on a random spree of violence.
(Awful in the real world, yes, but awesome in a game like this)

Two: Pilot X hears about a group of Marauders going into the territory of a hated alliance. Pilot X would never take direct action against this bunch normally, since he does not want his own corp / alliance to be involved in a war of retribution.
BUT, his corp / alliance would be in a better position to make a move against a less stable neighbor, say, one who just moved in after taking advantage of the hated alliances recent losses to Marauding pilots....

One thing leads to another.... many more explosions happen...
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