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What keeps this game interesting?
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Shanky Shanks
Shanky Shanks Corporation
#81 - 2013-07-28 22:56:38 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Shanky Shanks wrote:
I'm saying that edge is hot keys, which all of you who don't use are trying to tell me it makes little to no difference.
…and the reason is because they know how the game works and why the added speed you think matters actually doesn't. They have also tried it, and you have not.

Quote:
Realize they are everything but twitchy, navigating your mouse through every action you take is nothing but twitchy and sloppy feeling.
Actually, both are about as twitchy since it's the timing that matters, not the speed. You have plenty of time to line up your mouse — that part is never really an issue. Navigation, in particular, is far better done with the mouse than with any of the pre-made positioning commands..

Quote:
The information in this game isn't changing though, and I keep learning.
Apparently not, with the kind of deaf-ear attitude you've chosen to adopt to sound advice.



They have also tried it? I'm happy you could speak on behalf of the world of eve. I'm willing to bet most arguing the clicking is better, have in fact not tried it.

Navigation is still done with the mouse......... you just hit the key you need to as you put your mouse where it should be and the action is done. The game must be played with a mouse, there is no arguing that. The game can be cleaned up with by using your keyboard for half your actions, there is no arguing that.

It's hard to learn from a group of people who attack your post with things they believe they know something about. Believe it or not I have taking fractions of things people have said and learned from them in this post. When their over all post is denying that faster smoother game play is the inferior way to play, I feel there are better minds to learn from in the world of eve.
Arduemont
Rotten Legion
#82 - 2013-07-28 23:00:03 UTC
Shanky Shanks wrote:

They have also tried it? I'm happy you could speak on behalf of the world of eve. I'm willing to bet most arguing the clicking is better, have in fact not tried it.

Navigation is still done with the mouse......... you just hit the key you need to as you put your mouse where it should be and the action is done. The game must be played with a mouse, there is no arguing that. The game can be cleaned up with by using your keyboard for half your actions, there is no arguing that.

It's hard to learn from a group of people who attack your post with things they believe they know something about. Believe it or not I have taking fractions of things people have said and learned from them in this post. When their over all post is denying that faster smoother game play is the inferior way to play, I feel there are better minds to learn from in the world of eve.


There are good reason people click a lot in Eve.

Arduemont wrote:

Edit: As for the whole clicking with the mouse thing, I am afraid it's essential in Eve. To manually pilot your ship you click in space, there is no other option. All the best small gang and solo PvPers manually position their ships in PvP, because location is key. Even if you used hotkeys to move the view to see where you wanted to go you would still have to grab the mouse to choose to fly in that direction, so it's better to use the mouse for the whole process. Obviously good PvPers use hotkeys for as much as physically possible. The only hot keys I really use are for activating mods, locking, jumping, warping etc. There are no hotkeys for reloading ASBs, or changing ammo types, or a lot of the drone functions. When it comes down to it really, using the mouse is straight up essential for a lot of crucial things, and moving your hand from the mouse back down to the keyboard in a fair amount of situations is just a waste of time.

Hot keys make a difference, and every little helps, but it is only a little. When someone knows what your fit is likely to be like and has fitted two webs so you can't even hit them from the range they are orbiting you, then hot keys will make literally no difference.

"In the age of information, ignorance is a choice." www.stateofwar.co.nf
Shanky Shanks
Shanky Shanks Corporation
#83 - 2013-07-28 23:02:06 UTC
Get a good start: newbie skill plan 2.0.
Good read Tippia, thank you for that. Bookmarked
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#84 - 2013-07-28 23:06:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Shanky Shanks wrote:
They have also tried it?
Yes. On top of knowing the theory behind why it doesn't matter nearly as much as you think, they have also tried it and seen that practice matches theory.

Quote:
Navigation is still done with the mouse......... you just hit the key you need
No. You double-click in space. Unless you're just lazily moving between gates, not-really-autopiloting, then the navigation buttons will do but if you try them in combat, your chances of exploding just increased by an order of magnitude or so.

Quote:
The game must be played with a mouse, there is no arguing that. The game can be cleaned up with by using your keyboard for half your actions
…but the benefit it provides is very small compared to all the other things you have to do in order to win a fight. This is the part you have to learn: you're operating on assumption that simply do not hold true for this game, and when people point out your mistakes, you dismiss them as not knowing or understanding your supermegaawesome way of doing things.

But they do. More than that, they know and understand why it doesn't particularly qualify as supermegaawesome. You need to learn this as well, but doing so will require you to start shedding those fundamental misconceptions you have.
Echo Echoplex
#85 - 2013-07-28 23:13:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Echo Echoplex
Shanky Shanks wrote:
What is there to do in this game that is interesting and keeps you playing?

While others are replaying the battle of the sexes, there's this:

http://www.twitch.tv/mad_ani/new

Untutored courage is useless in the face of educated bullets. Gen. George S. Patton
Shanky Shanks
Shanky Shanks Corporation
#86 - 2013-07-28 23:15:51 UTC
Arduemont wrote:
Shanky Shanks wrote:

They have also tried it? I'm happy you could speak on behalf of the world of eve. I'm willing to bet most arguing the clicking is better, have in fact not tried it.

Navigation is still done with the mouse......... you just hit the key you need to as you put your mouse where it should be and the action is done. The game must be played with a mouse, there is no arguing that. The game can be cleaned up with by using your keyboard for half your actions, there is no arguing that.

It's hard to learn from a group of people who attack your post with things they believe they know something about. Believe it or not I have taking fractions of things people have said and learned from them in this post. When their over all post is denying that faster smoother game play is the inferior way to play, I feel there are better minds to learn from in the world of eve.


There are good reason people click a lot in Eve.

Arduemont wrote:

Edit: As for the whole clicking with the mouse thing, I am afraid it's essential in Eve. To manually pilot your ship you click in space, there is no other option. All the best small gang and solo PvPers manually position their ships in PvP, because location is key. Even if you used hotkeys to move the view to see where you wanted to go you would still have to grab the mouse to choose to fly in that direction, so it's better to use the mouse for the whole process. Obviously good PvPers use hotkeys for as much as physically possible. The only hot keys I really use are for activating mods, locking, jumping, warping etc. There are no hotkeys for reloading ASBs, or changing ammo types, or a lot of the drone functions. When it comes down to it really, using the mouse is straight up essential for a lot of crucial things, and moving your hand from the mouse back down to the keyboard in a fair amount of situations is just a waste of time.

Hot keys make a difference, and every little helps, but it is only a little. When someone knows what your fit is likely to be like and has fitted two webs so you can't even hit them from the range they are orbiting you, then hot keys will make literally no difference.



No there isn't a good reason. I didn't respond to his argument because it was a bad argument.
"Even if you used hotkeys to move the view to see where you wanted to go you would still have to grab the mouse to choose to fly in that direction, so it's better to use the mouse for the whole process." That was his argument.
Even if you used a tractor to plow the field, you will still have to grab a shovel to dig the tractor out of the mud, so you might as well just use the shovel for the whole field.

I will say it for the last time, bold, italicized and mutha fkin capitalized. YOU NEED YOUR MOUSE TO PLAY THE GAME, WE ALL UNDERSTAND THIS. There are many actions to do in this game, many let you have the option of using a hotkey. When that option is available, I recommend you take it, It will make your game play smother and you will mis click much less.

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#87 - 2013-07-28 23:22:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Shanky Shanks wrote:
No there isn't a good reason. I didn't respond to his argument because it was a bad argument.
What was bad about it? Just because proper combat navigation in this game doesn't live up to your preconception does not mean that describing how things work is a bad argument.

Quote:
Even if you used a tractor to plow the field, you will still have to grab a shovel to dig the tractor out of the mud, so you might as well just use the shovel for the whole field.
No. If you plough the field you've made furrows already, so you don't need to dig anything. That's the difference: you can't pick a flight vector with the keyboard — you have to use the mouse (and your ability to adjust your view through keyboard input is itself very limited so you should use the mouse anyway since it's the far better option). So it wasn't a bad argument. You just didn't understand what he said.
Shanky Shanks
Shanky Shanks Corporation
#88 - 2013-07-28 23:31:18 UTC
Why are you limiting yourself to navigation and a view points when it comes to keyboard. Modules friends, That is where you accuracy and speed comes in. Activating and de activing every module you need to instantly and all while navigating with your mouse at the same time.
Anyone who uses hotkeys and is comfortable with them, never goes back to clicking. Since I know this, I feel comfortable saying that everyone here is arguing about something they know nothing about. They know as much about hot keys as I know about eve. I'm bored of this post now though. It started as a what should I do next, turned into a drunken troll forum. Was quite fun but I'm tired of arguing the point. I'll keep using my hotkeys, you keep clicking, we are all happy.
Jill Xelitras
Xeltec services
#89 - 2013-07-28 23:37:04 UTC
Shanky Shanks wrote:

You're saying that clicking is acceptable, I'm saying it is not. You say it's acceptable because the servers are based off 1 second intervals, I believe that hotkeys get more actions per second and If you get to a point to where you are equally matched with someone and you are doing everything at twice the speed then you will win. Hotkeys bring more then twice the speed, every action is done light years faster then someone navigating click by click across their screen. It may not have as large of an impact as a twitch game but it is certainly an advantage. When dealing with a 30 seconds battle, If someone doing everything with hotkeys can do twice the amount of actions as someone clicking, then there will be an advantage. In a game that can require a month of training to gain a 5% advantage in a skill this should be easy to realize.

Aside from our argument I appreciate you throwing in a tip. I will definitely check out BN. Thank you



Of course hotkeys are faster than clicking ... but

1) How fast you have to react often depends on the type of ships you fly.
Interceptor pilots click on average 20 times / second ... or at least that's what it sounds like over comms Smile
Battleship pilots usually deal with modules that cycle once every 4-8 seconds. That's quite easily doable with mouse only.
Personally I do regroup my most used modules on the top, so I can use F1 - F8 even for mid- and low-slots.

2) In a game where most keys are primarily used to type text in a chat-window, you'll be pulling your hairs out when the focus was on a chat window when you needed it to be in the space part of the game.
So basically F1-F8 is fine, because that's not used to type text. Then I also use ctrl+ and alt+ combinations, but that's about it.

3) Also, many of the videos on youtube are older videos where we had less shortcuts available. Yes, there was a time before ctrl+left-click to target and left-click + W to warp.

4) A lot of the stuff actually going on during the 1vs1 or 1 vs many fights you see on youtube are actually happening off-cam. ... and it's mostly not about SP difference.

It's a bit like in FPS videos, when the guy runs into a room and then immediately aims for the dark corner and kills a guy hiding there. How did he know there would be a guy in that corner ? Well: play 100 rounds on the same map, get killed 20 times by a guy hiding in that corner and you'll get used to go and check out that corner systematically.

That's a bit how eve works, except you're not playing on the same map over and over again ... you never really know what ship lies behind the next stargate and more importantly how it is fitted.


Don't anger the forum gods.

ISD Buldath:

> I Saw, I came, I Frowned, I locked, I posted, and I left.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#90 - 2013-07-28 23:41:34 UTC
Shanky Shanks wrote:
Why are you limiting yourself to navigation and a view points when it comes to keyboard. Modules friends, That is where you accuracy and speed comes in.
…and where it isn't particularly needed, due to the aforementioned one (or ten) second ticks, and the fact that it's more a matter of timing than of frobbing them quickly.

Quote:
They know as much about hot keys as I know about eve.
More accurately: they know as much about hot keys as you do; a lot more about mouse actions; and a whole lot more about EVE. That's why they're comfortable in saying that the things you value so highly don't matter nearly as much as you think, for a number of technical and tactical reasons.
Aidan Brooder
Dynasphere Ltd.
#91 - 2013-07-29 00:32:08 UTC
Isn't there a hotkey to quit & deinstall?

This game is nothing like the games you mentioned. Having played all of them, you will be embarassed to fly with what EVE calls "Pro" players.

Because it is simply not about reaction speed. It is about fleet compositions and flying the right crap at the right time...

Again... I think it is ESC --> Log off... Then you need to mouse click some and the game is gone and you can go back to LoL?

Blog: http://aidanbrooder.wordpress.com My EVE Playlist on YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLSNuHY7z8n1q1BdLvW2verIfH8vvWtz_x
Trudeaux Margaret
University of Caille
#92 - 2013-07-29 00:39:40 UTC
Shanky Shanks wrote:
Of course my kill board is trash, I haven't killed anyone. I've been playing for a month, and never said I was epic at this game or anything near.
"But this game isn't about being smooth shanky it's about knowledge and blah blah".... Right re tard, every game is about knowledge, but assuming you have the knowledge you need, then the next proper step is to gain any edge you can over your opponent. I'm saying that edge is hot keys, which all of you who don't use are trying to tell me it makes little to no difference. You're high as ****.
Approach - Q, Orbit - W, Keep Distance - E, Target - Alt, Look at - Space, Drones attack/return - D/F
High modules 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 Over heat high Alt 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6
Mids, Naga mouse 1-6. Lows 7-12, Overheat - Alt....

Boom! You just got better at this game. Take them out, use them, get comfortable with them. Add more as you get comfortable with them. Realize they are everything but twitchy, navigating your mouse through every action you take is nothing but twitchy and sloppy feeling.

I may not have the knowledge to win a fight yet and I'm sure 99% of people would beat me. The information in this game isn't changing though, and I keep learning. What are you learning? If it is nothing, then I will catch up to what you know and I will have the advantage with smooth precise and fast actions.



Yes, yes. You are 100% correct. You have the keys to the kingdom and that is HOTKEYS. Only scrubs use a mouse no matter what the game. Shanky knows all about it and he will show everyone soon! Blink

God, Tippia has the patience of a saint.


> anyone willing to give me like a 5 min politics crash course?

> grr goons, lowsec is full of elitist sh*s, all roads lead to the bittervet pl
Katie Frost
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#93 - 2013-07-29 00:40:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Katie Frost
This whole thread can be really summarised in two points:

1) Shanky - yes, you are correct. Ability to use hot-keys effectively and efficiently will give you a minuscule advantage in Eve... you are yet to realise just how small of an advantage it is however. You have also learned that people on EVE-O forums love to argue for argument's sake, so the magnitude of this advantage has been flogged to death already.

2) You are also arrogant. Your lack of knowledge and respect for other facets of the game will make you hard to teach anything and will make you an easy target for opponents for some months/years to come. I just hope you do not get frustrated when you realise just how little hot-keying will help you in Eve versus what you are clearly used to in other games.

Good luck though. Your confidence will certainly come in handy in Eve PvP and a small adjustment in your attitude going forward may see you rise in the ranks of the PvP elite.
God's Apples
Wilderness
IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII
#94 - 2013-07-29 05:35:54 UTC
I suppose if you really want to have a very twitchy and hotkey reliant game experience you could always ISbox 10 or 20 or even 60 ships and solo incursions or PvP with it. Otherwise just take it slow. Not everything is so simple as you make it out to be. This game is multifaceted and to be successful it requires an immense amount of knowledge. For example, I can deduce with relative accuracy the fit of a frig pilot inside a FW plex without ever entering or looking at his killboard just by using d-scan and using the mouse wheel to determine exactly how far he is from the warp-in.

I'm not trying to brag, I'm just trying to tell you that the majority of the fight is done before the fight actually occurs. Say I'm fighting a 10 man gang solo in my omen navy. I'm not going to just charge right in an hope my fast clicking and reflexes will win me the fight. First I will get into a position that will allow me to view their positioning with relative safety and an align point facing away from the gang that I can warp out to if need be. Once I'm done with that I will try to get myself in a position I find comfortable for myself, such as placing their fast tackle farther away from me so that when they burn close I have time to lock them and blap them. Then, depending on what the remaining gang comp is I will move in and fight the rest.

See the key to winning is preparation and planning ahead. None of the example fight I just gave you required any quick thinking or snazzy maneuvers. Fighting multiple slower ships later on may require some situational awareness, but nothing to the point of clicking faster than your opponent.

"Hydra Reloaded are just jealous / butthurt on me / us because we can get tons of PVP action in empire while they aren't good enough to get that." - NightmareX
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#95 - 2013-07-29 06:17:26 UTC
Shanky, you may want to reread the thread.

Nobody ever advised against the use of Hotkeys. All I said was that, if you can do all the actions you need to in each tick using the mouse, hotkeys provide no advantage.

More specifically, I said that this:
Shanky Shanks wrote:
Who in the hell clicks in pvp, It's hotkeys and hotkeys only, miliseconds matter, None the less these pilots win battle after battle which tells me this game is really nothing but a "I've got more time invested into skills then you" game.

is a full load, and explained why.

They click in PvP because that is sufficient for their purposes, and changing to hotkeys will not provide them with any advantage.

That you decided to read some nonsensical rant against hotkeys and then double down on that wacky interpretation after I told you it was the wrong one is just zany.

Oh, and my posts are legible because of a magic hotkey called the "carriage return." Try buying one for your keyboard.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Ariah Thorland
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#96 - 2013-07-29 06:48:04 UTC
Shanky Shanks wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:
Shanky Shanks wrote:
I don't care what the servers run on, EVERY pvp game means miliseconds matter. If we are matched equally on every level and I am able to activate what I need to 4 times faster then you then I win... all day, every day.


The servers only update the simulation once per second (that's 1 Hz). Getting your command in earlier or later in that 1 second interval doesn't affect anything.

You can compare it to a turn based game; finishing your turn quicker doesn't give you an advantage.


I understand what you're saying.

obviously you didn't. Try again.

What you fail to realize is the art of true pvp. There is a reason no one has heard of you on this game,

Haven't heard of you before either, you haven't heard of me. What's your point? Ever heard of Dante Lobos? Or Skywalker? Or Runespear? Maybe not, maybe you did. Does that mater to them? Personal experience tells me they won't care and it doesn't matter.

it's because you aren't good. I'm not good. Admitting it costs me a mental shoulder shrug You will never be a top player because you live off this law of 1hz. It takes you two seconds to target, orbit, and activate your modules, It only takes me one.

Wanna see you lock up ships, hit orbit and activate modules faster then the maths actually allow it. If the damn ship needs two seconds to lock up **** it'll need two seconds. Your argument is invalid.


In a world where we are equally matched in every way, I shaved a second off, I win. You come at my post filled with multiple points and tell me they are all invalid because you believe you are certain about something that you are in fact completely wrong about.


Look up how the damn mechanics work. Yeah you probably did. That's how you made your billion. Or through selling a plex and a bit of work ... which would explain why you're bored too - go back to a different freemium game in that case. Being spacerich doesn't matter anyway.

Aside from that you really haven't answered the question that is my post.

What keeps us playing is different for each individual. If you can't find anything fun to do go back to playing WoW (ever noticed how the EVE playerbase ridicules WoW?). Being top 1% in that games PvP doesn't matter here. Neither does SoCom II - or any game for that matter (with the potential exception of Perpetuum).

What keeps YOU interested. So far small gang pvp has struck my interest and is something I haven't tried. What are some GOOD corps that accept new players with my drive to be top tier.


Ever tried RvB?
What keeps me interessted is talking to ppl that are not obnoxious about their supremacy in a game, that are about as weird as I am and that don't whinge around cause it's a game - no matter how real it is.


All that or you're just bored enough to troll ppl in GD.
Alpheias
Tactical Farmers.
Pandemic Horde
#97 - 2013-07-29 09:39:39 UTC
One of the things that makes EVE interesting to me is when certain individuals from other games hop onto these forums, to talk about how superior they are or the game that they play is so much superior than EVE.

I would never in my life even consider to get an account for any of the themepark MMOs out there for the sole purpose to hop onto the forums and talk about how superior EVE is.

Because as we all know, some people like taking risks with their lives while the very large majority prefer gardening.

Agent of Chaos, Sower of Discord.

Don't talk to me unless you are IQ verified and certified with three references from non-family members. Please have your certificate of authenticity on hand.
Hayz Hayward
Flying Twice Technologies
Hard Knocks Executors
#98 - 2013-07-29 09:49:37 UTC
Shanky Shanks wrote:
What is there to do in this game that is interesting and keeps you playing? I've been playing for a month and tried what seems like everything there is to offer. Lvl 3 security missions are a joke and slightly more dangerous then mining, sometimes you gotta shoot the guy webbing you sometimes you gotta press the e key (keep distance from) when taking too much damage. Null sec exploration is free money when you learn to get past these eve veterans that are complete trash at setting up blockades. Faction war is a waiting period until you can match the sp levels of these guys rocking atleast twice the damage and hull as you. Wormholes are just an advanced security mission where you gotta spam your dscan. In the past there have been 3 games I've dedicated my time to (World of warcraft, league of legends and socom II) I have been in the top 1% of players in their arenas, so I love every aspect of pvp, but it feels so dry in this game. I've made over a billion isk within my short time playing and am feeling as though this game presents no challenge. I've watched some youtube videos and watched guys clicking all over their screen as they fight other pilots.......Who in the hell clicks in pvp, It's hotkeys and hotkeys only, miliseconds matter, None the less these pilots win battle after battle which tells me this game is really nothing but a "I've got more time invested into skills then you" game.

I really want to enjoy this game. I love the idea of this game, I love space, space ships, pvp, making in game money, challenges and grinds but none of it seems to be keeping my attention. Where is the challenge and where is the fun in this game? What do YOU do that keeps you hooked? As of right now I feel like sitting in a hangar for a few months waiting for reasonable skills to be trained.



Come back and complain about clicking once you've set up a few pi planets..

WARNING: this post is filled with cerebral dissentry
Lugalbandak
Doomheim
#99 - 2013-07-29 10:06:45 UTC
Fly DA DRAKE

The police horse is the only animal in the world that haz his male genitals on his back
Ace Uoweme
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#100 - 2013-07-29 11:11:42 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Its not a twitch game. Which is both good and bad. Theres real risk, you lose in WoW you really lose nothing. Lose in EvE you feel it. Some like that. Some dont.


Which isn't what this WoW player even considers "risk", since those who do pewpewpew aren't really hurting by dying anyway (notice Goons and TEST fighting for months now with endless ships???).

What is different is the game is consistent. Blizzard's design philosophy is changing comfort zones per patch, in the belief by doing so it keeps players interested. Well, gamers are different, some get excited by changes per patch, others moan. Those that moan prefer games like EvE, as it doesn't turn things upside down every 3 months. After Cata, I prefer a much more consistent world, where if I leave for a year and come back, it still resembles what I left...a home.

_"In a world of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." _ ~George Orwell