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ECM: OP or not, it does not belong.

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Diesel47
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#161 - 2013-07-28 11:35:11 UTC
HiddenPorpoise wrote:
Diesel47 wrote:
Also: Do you even know what a brawling is bro?
I do. Now, from the situation you just laid out, kill the tackle orbiting just out of lock range (18km) and the keres orbiting at 36(the keres is putting down a point from here as well).


Tackle orbiting at 18km? What are they trying to do then?

Just burn away from them to a gate or station while they follow haplessly, where is their heavy tackler with webs? What is to stop you?

Now if they actually had a ship to get in close and fight you then you could easily shoot back. I don't see your point.
Justin Parmala
Doomheim
#162 - 2013-07-28 11:36:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Justin Parmala
HiddenPorpoise wrote:
Diesel47 wrote:
Also: Do you even know what a brawling is bro?
I do. Now, from the situation you just laid out, kill the tackle orbiting just out of lock range (18km) and the keres orbiting at 36(the keres is putting down a point from here as well).


Try to slingshot the tackler at 18kms, he dies. \o/, you just killed something. Can't do that with ECM :), because when u get jammed everybody and their uncle will get in close to you and apply DPS because they know you can't do anything to fight back.
Whitehound
#163 - 2013-07-28 11:50:33 UTC
Justin Parmala wrote:
Try to slingshot the tackler at 18kms, he dies. \o/, you just killed something. Can't do that with ECM :), because when u get jammed everybody and their uncle will get in close to you and apply DPS because they know you can't do anything to fight back.

You will probably have deserved the punishment. If not then contact their diplomat.

Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#164 - 2013-07-28 12:13:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Morrigan LeSante
Justin Parmala wrote:
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
Then the jams are VERY unreliable and I don't think there's any debate about how fast they die after a couple of missed jams.


No lol, fitting a single 1600mm plate gives you like 10k more EHP and reduces your jam on a specific module from 9.9 str to 9.4 .

What are u even saying hahaha.



Great, now you have a ~50% change to jam a lowly caracal. Oooooh terrifying.


Optimal caps out at ~54km too



Now imagine what an arazu could do to the same caracal? Far, far worse.


But, yeah you're all right, ECM is an I-WIN button, that's why it's everywhere all the time, even on unbonused hulls. Wait, sorry - that was 2005
Justin Parmala
Doomheim
#165 - 2013-07-28 12:29:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Justin Parmala
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
Justin Parmala wrote:
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
Then the jams are VERY unreliable and I don't think there's any debate about how fast they die after a couple of missed jams.


No lol, fitting a single 1600mm plate gives you like 10k more EHP and reduces your jam on a specific module from 9.9 str to 9.4 .

What are u even saying hahaha.



Great, now you have a ~50% change to jam a lowly caracal. Oooooh terrifying.


Optimal caps out at ~54km too



Now imagine what an arazu could do to the same caracal? Far, far worse.


But, yeah you're all right, ECM is an I-WIN button, that's why it's everywhere all the time, even on unbonused hulls. Wait, sorry - that was 2005


Optimal caps out at 54km = You using a failcon? If u want range jump into a blackbird and your optimal is around 80km.

50km is really far away anyways. Not a lot of things can reach you.
Mag's
Azn Empire
#166 - 2013-07-28 12:50:18 UTC
Diesel47 wrote:
I see a broken mechanic and its about time CCP fixes it.
How is it a broken mechanic? When I ask this, I require some facts and figures to back up your claim. Simply stating it's broken, will not suffice. After all, if you are making this claim, I'm sure you have all the graphs and numbers at hand. So it shouldn't be a problem. Big smile

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Little Dragon Khamez
Guardians of the Underworld
#167 - 2013-07-28 12:51:51 UTC
Diesel47 wrote:
Little Dragon Khamez wrote:


I have no idea who DHB wildcat is, should I know? Have I just been introduced to a z-list celebrity from some obscure TV channel I don't know. Other than that the rest of your post is merely opinion and opinions without facts or reasoned arguments are worthless.


You asked proof that experienced PvPers agree with me. I pointed one out. Not my problem you don't know who he is. Go google his name or something. Infact, go google who the oldest and best PvPers are, then go ask them yourself what they think about ECM.

And stop hiding behind an alt, post with your main.




I shouldn't have to go fact checking your arguments, it's your job to bring the facts to the table. Also I don't have alts I have fully fleshed out main characters though admittedly more than one.

Anyhow after you rudely told someone to STFU I am now obliged to ask you to:

'Show us on the dolly where the nasty Falcon touched you...'

Dumbing down of Eve Online will result in it's destruction...
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#168 - 2013-07-28 12:53:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Morrigan LeSante
Usually use falcon as it has better jam strength.

A ~50% jam rate isn't reliable - and the ships are suitably paper tanked compared to their equivalents - if this wasn't true, we'd see nothing but solo rooks and falcons kicking ass up and down - but we don't.



However it's a digression - the issue with ECM is the unpredictability, the binary effect and that's intrinsically linked to the hulls themselves.
Diesel47
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#169 - 2013-07-28 13:00:08 UTC
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
Usually use falcon as it has better jam strength.

A ~50% jam rate isn't reliable - and the ships are suitably paper tanked compared to their equivalents - if this wasn't true, we'd see nothing but solo rooks and falcons kicking ass up and down - but we don't.



However it's a digression - the issue with ECM is the unpredictability, the binary effect and that's intrinsically linked to the hulls themselves.


The unpredictability has to do with the binary effect which is the problem, not the hulls.

First you fix the mechanic and then worry about the hulls.
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#170 - 2013-07-28 13:07:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Morrigan LeSante
Diesel47 wrote:
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
Usually use falcon as it has better jam strength.

A ~50% jam rate isn't reliable - and the ships are suitably paper tanked compared to their equivalents - if this wasn't true, we'd see nothing but solo rooks and falcons kicking ass up and down - but we don't.



However it's a digression - the issue with ECM is the unpredictability, the binary effect and that's intrinsically linked to the hulls themselves.


The unpredictability has to do with the binary effect which is the problem, not the hulls.

First you fix the mechanic and then worry about the hulls.



You can't because if you fix one and not the other you have hugely overpowered rooks etc.

To bring it line with other mechanics but not do the hulls you have a situation with at least half their mids free, the lows and rigs.


Personally I think a rook/falcon as effective and reliable as the likes if a pilgrim/arazu would be a horrible thing, I'd rather fight today's incarnation.
Justin Parmala
Doomheim
#171 - 2013-07-28 13:08:35 UTC
Little Dragon Khamez wrote:
Diesel47 wrote:
Little Dragon Khamez wrote:


I have no idea who DHB wildcat is, should I know? Have I just been introduced to a z-list celebrity from some obscure TV channel I don't know. Other than that the rest of your post is merely opinion and opinions without facts or reasoned arguments are worthless.


You asked proof that experienced PvPers agree with me. I pointed one out. Not my problem you don't know who he is. Go google his name or something. Infact, go google who the oldest and best PvPers are, then go ask them yourself what they think about ECM.

And stop hiding behind an alt, post with your main.




I shouldn't have to go fact checking your arguments, it's your job to bring the facts to the table. Also I don't have alts I have fully fleshed out main characters though admittedly more than one.

Anyhow after you rudely told someone to STFU I am now obliged to ask you to:

'Show us on the dolly where the nasty Falcon touched you...'



Its nobodies job to bring facts to you so you can decide whether they are right or not. What do you think you are? Some kind of forum king that everybody has to pay a debt to?

Your arrogance is astounding.
Diesel47
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#172 - 2013-07-28 13:11:00 UTC
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
Diesel47 wrote:
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
Usually use falcon as it has better jam strength.

A ~50% jam rate isn't reliable - and the ships are suitably paper tanked compared to their equivalents - if this wasn't true, we'd see nothing but solo rooks and falcons kicking ass up and down - but we don't.



However it's a digression - the issue with ECM is the unpredictability, the binary effect and that's intrinsically linked to the hulls themselves.


The unpredictability has to do with the binary effect which is the problem, not the hulls.

First you fix the mechanic and then worry about the hulls.



You can't because if you fix one and not the other you have hugely overpowered rooks etc.

To bring it line with other mechanics but not do the hulls you have a situation with at least half their mids free, the lows and rigs.


Personally I think a rook/falcon as effective and reliable as the likes if a pilgrim/arazu would be a horrible thing, I'd rather fight today's incarnation.


I'd rather see a much needed overhaul so ECM isn't so annoying.
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#173 - 2013-07-28 13:19:39 UTC
That's the thing though - when it works it is (to all intents and purposes) not more materially effective than other EWAR. The only real difference is that other ewar affords the /illusion/ of a choice/ability to combat it.


If a gang is rolling with damps/TDs - their tackle etc will fly accordingly - you can chase it futilely but your death is just as certain as an ECM bird jamming you constantly. You might think you had a chance, but you really didn't.
Diesel47
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#174 - 2013-07-28 13:30:24 UTC
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
That's the thing though - when it works it is (to all intents and purposes) not more materially effective than other EWAR. The only real difference is that other ewar affords the /illusion/ of a choice/ability to combat it.


If a gang is rolling with damps/TDs - their tackle etc will fly accordingly - you can chase it futilely but your death is just as certain as an ECM bird jamming you constantly. You might think you had a chance, but you really didn't.



Its not illusion mate.

If I'm flying a hurricane, and I'm getting TD'd so I can't hit anything.. I can still direct my drones to the light tackle frig, or use a energy neutralizer on him so I can warp out.

If I'm flying a tanky brawling vexor, and some arazu damps me to 12km lock range, I can still blow up the rupture that is next to me trying to kill me.

If I get energy neutralized by a curse, I still can plan my moves or escape until my cap runs out. If I have capless weapons, I can keep shooting too.

The damps didn't help this loser from getting melted, we got up in his face and even though we should of gotten stomped in that fight we ended up killing more than we lost : http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=16899509


The only illusion is that getting perma jammed by ECM is an okay thing. It is just bad for the health of the game, I personally had a bud who quit the game one of his reasons was how BS ECM was.
Justin Parmala
Doomheim
#175 - 2013-07-28 13:35:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Justin Parmala
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
That's the thing though - when it works it is (to all intents and purposes) not more materially effective than other EWAR. The only real difference is that other ewar affords the /illusion/ of a choice/ability to combat it.


If a gang is rolling with damps/TDs - their tackle etc will fly accordingly - you can chase it futilely but your death is just as certain as an ECM bird jamming you constantly. You might think you had a chance, but you really didn't.


Say somebody is flying an anti-tackle ship. And if anything comes in close to hard tackle him he will just blow them away...

Which is more powerful?

A damp which lets him shoot and fight out to web range or an ECM that makes him into a flying brick?

Now which is more fun?

ECM is just a cheap way for really bad players to fight, that's honestly all I see it as. And its too random too, something this random doesn't fit in with EVE gameplay.
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#176 - 2013-07-28 14:05:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Morrigan LeSante
Some of those are niche - I.e. like telling people to combat ECM with range. Others are bad luck - drones not already out.

Others are valid and would be handled by a soft counter of FoF ammo across all weapon types.


One other thing I've mentioned in past threads is that I don't think it's reasonable to have to reacquire lock after a jam, seems needlessly punitive.


The real trick is getting something that's not going to completely neuter the system - I've not seen an option yet, in any thread ever that wouldn't leave people never undocking them in favour of other EWAR types.
Arya Regnar
Darwins Right Hand
#177 - 2013-07-28 14:17:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Arya Regnar
At the very least ecm should have diminishing returns that would make you unable to jam someone for 1 minute straight.

Edit: At the same time you could make ecm less effective in general and then make it more effective vs ships that have more targets locked.

EvE-Mail me if you need anything.
Jake Sake
Doomheim
#178 - 2013-07-28 14:19:52 UTC
Wow, the most amusing and amazing thing in this thread is the moderating :)
Continious attacks on person (in lack of ability to attack arguments) by thread opener is completely ingored on other hand the few who actually provide good arguments against total fruitbatness of OPs statements are moderated.

ECM is not broken. If it were there would be numerous kitsunes, falcons, rooks and scorpions all around high/low/null.
Diesel47
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#179 - 2013-07-28 14:23:55 UTC
Jake Sake wrote:
Wow, the most amusing and amazing thing in this thread is the moderating :)
Continious attacks on person (in lack of ability to attack arguments) by thread opener is completely ingored on other hand the few who actually provide good arguments against total fruitbatness of OPs statements are moderated.

ECM is not broken. If it were there would be numerous kitsunes, falcons, rooks and scorpions all around high/low/null.


Compelling argument. Roll
Jake Sake
Doomheim
#180 - 2013-07-28 14:30:25 UTC
Diesel47 wrote:


Compelling argument. Roll


Just trying to be on same level as you... though it's probably bad for my mental health