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Freighter ganks

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SlapNuts
Lost Wacko's
#61 - 2013-07-26 14:03:56 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Quote:
A freighter jumps into high and a frig approaches, it scans the freighter, copies the loot, pastes it into a generator that calculates the amount the freight is worth which comes out to be over the amount he knows is a go, he then tells his buddies who are waiting a system or two up the pipe the name and type of freighter, he or someone else get to the next gate and tells the others when the freighter is jumping into the kill system, his friends then warp to the gate and kill the freighter.....

Now I am not sure how some ppl think think this takes a lot of planning, it might be complicated for someone on the short bus but, for most, it is rather simple.

All I am saying is the risk vs reward is a bit out of wack and should be adjusted. The freighter pilot is taking all the risk. The ganker loses a 20m ship and some mods to concord(big deal) and makes a **** load for his loss and the freighter pilot loses Billions.


The risk vs reward is only out of whack if the freighter pilot decides to make that the case. It's entirely his decision how much cargo to move.

By your same logic, if I have a blinged out Rattlesnake ratting somewhere in Forge, people shouldn't be able to kill me, just because I made it profitable for other people to try and kill me? Bullshit. Pricetag is not a tank, nor should it ever be.

And stupidity has a price, people will gank you and take your stuff. If a freighter pilot gets ganked for profit, it is 100% HIS FAULT. He carried enough that it was profitable to kill him, and someone did. Dangle a piece of steak in front of a wolf, and you blame the wolf for biting?

Furthermore, effort put in by more than one person, is superior to no effort put in by one person.

It takes more planning to gank a freighter than to load one up and afk while you autopilot. More planning currently wins, and it should.

You also failed to answer my question. Why is it unfair to lose a ship 15v1? Wouldn't it be entirely overpowered if a single ship could win a fight vs 15 people who set it up ahead of time?


OK, I will type slower for you so you can understand me. I did not say anywhere that a ship should not be killed, I did not say i was against ganking, I did not say if you over power a ship you should not be able to kill it.

What i did say was the ships used to kill it should cost a bit more, be a bit bigger so the gankers also lose a little more.

One way to achieve this would be to allow the frieghter a small ability to fight back. Most ppl say, just give it shield mods, more armor etc. I say ppl like to shoot things, give them turrets that can at least kill some small ships to even the playing field a bit.
Haramir Haleths
Nutella Bande
#62 - 2013-07-26 14:09:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Haramir Haleths
Stay with your freighter in low sec. nobody fly destroyers in low sec.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#63 - 2013-07-26 14:09:13 UTC
Quote:
OK, I will type slower for you so you can understand me. I did not say anywhere that a ship should not be killed, I did not say i was against ganking, I did not say if you over power a ship you should not be able to kill it.

What i did say was the ships used to kill it should cost a bit more, be a bit bigger so the gankers also lose a little more.

One way to achieve this would be to allow the frieghter a small ability to fight back. Most ppl say, just give it shield mods, more armor etc. I say ppl like to shoot things, give them turrets that can at least kill some small ships to even the playing field a bit.


Every time people start up with this "just a little bit more nerf" line, a new ganker is born.

Seriously, what are you going to do? Ruin legitimate uses for Catalysts just because they are popular for ganks? Ok, then they'll switch to a different destroyer, probably Thrashers. Then they just adjust their spreadsheet a little bit more, and carry on as before.

Thanks largely to all the ganking nerfs over the history of this game, to make this profitable, they now have it down to a science. That's the fault of the carebears, not the gankers.

Giving it guns won't help. All that will do is appease your sense of fairness. They die while afk anyway, bro. They won't turn on their mods because they aren't there to do it.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#64 - 2013-07-26 14:10:50 UTC
SlapNuts wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Quote:
A freighter jumps into high and a frig approaches, it scans the freighter, copies the loot, pastes it into a generator that calculates the amount the freight is worth which comes out to be over the amount he knows is a go, he then tells his buddies who are waiting a system or two up the pipe the name and type of freighter, he or someone else get to the next gate and tells the others when the freighter is jumping into the kill system, his friends then warp to the gate and kill the freighter.....

Now I am not sure how some ppl think think this takes a lot of planning, it might be complicated for someone on the short bus but, for most, it is rather simple.

All I am saying is the risk vs reward is a bit out of wack and should be adjusted. The freighter pilot is taking all the risk. The ganker loses a 20m ship and some mods to concord(big deal) and makes a **** load for his loss and the freighter pilot loses Billions.


The risk vs reward is only out of whack if the freighter pilot decides to make that the case. It's entirely his decision how much cargo to move.

By your same logic, if I have a blinged out Rattlesnake ratting somewhere in Forge, people shouldn't be able to kill me, just because I made it profitable for other people to try and kill me? Bullshit. Pricetag is not a tank, nor should it ever be.

And stupidity has a price, people will gank you and take your stuff. If a freighter pilot gets ganked for profit, it is 100% HIS FAULT. He carried enough that it was profitable to kill him, and someone did. Dangle a piece of steak in front of a wolf, and you blame the wolf for biting?

Furthermore, effort put in by more than one person, is superior to no effort put in by one person.

It takes more planning to gank a freighter than to load one up and afk while you autopilot. More planning currently wins, and it should.

You also failed to answer my question. Why is it unfair to lose a ship 15v1? Wouldn't it be entirely overpowered if a single ship could win a fight vs 15 people who set it up ahead of time?


OK, I will type slower for you so you can understand me. I did not say anywhere that a ship should not be killed, I did not say i was against ganking, I did not say if you over power a ship you should not be able to kill it.

What i did say was the ships used to kill it should cost a bit more, be a bit bigger so the gankers also lose a little more.

One way to achieve this would be to allow the frieghter a small ability to fight back. Most ppl say, just give it shield mods, more armor etc. I say ppl like to shoot things, give them turrets that can at least kill some small ships to even the playing field a bit.


With no bonus at all because it's not a combat ship, you would probably need something close to a full rack of weapons to kill a single destroyer completely makign the point of adding weapon to them null and void.

This gank is odd tho. It's either a missed slingshot (people use faction webs for this?) or a deliberate in corp action...
Tobias Hareka
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#65 - 2013-07-26 14:11:23 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
You also failed to answer my question. Why is it unfair to lose a ship 15v1? Wouldn't it be entirely overpowered if a single ship could win a fight vs 15 people who set it up ahead of time?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nSoFCC26KGw

Lol
Annalise Elina Amaranthus
#66 - 2013-07-26 14:25:21 UTC
Blockade Runner. Jump/cloak/win

Maybe not able to carry huge cargoes, but unless you are running ships or minerals for sale, You really don't need huge cargoes from the volumes of most items I have seen. It just means you may have to make a cpl extra trips, but you also don't lose a billion+ isk ship and it's cargo to 15 gnats with high alpha and you make gankers have to work MUCH harder to catch you.

Unless of course you are like the idiot I saw get ganked a cpl days ago in Uedama APing with a blockade runner (prowler), which completely defeated it's primary purpose of stealth and swiftness.

I am not psychotic.

Tobias Hareka
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#67 - 2013-07-26 14:27:54 UTC
What they should do is to disable jump drives from JF/BlOps/whatever in hisec.
Hevymetal
POT Corp
#68 - 2013-07-26 14:36:41 UTC
Hello GoodSir wrote:
Why is it that freighters have such low hp that they can get ganked in highsec by a bunch of destroyers? It just seems silly. eve killboard is kind of depressing.


Prerequisite to avoid ganking.
Don't friggin use AP.
Friends.

Step 1.
Get in gang with a leader w/good skills and a command ship. (increas sheild,speed and armor)

Step 2.
Have corpmate web you. (reduces time to warp)

Step 3.
If your cargo is valuable enough. Have gangmate remote rep you while not in warp or gate cloaked. (buffer their alphas)

Step 4.
Have quick locking ships in gang to lock and pop the pods after they are Concorded. (Just for the Lolz)

Step 5.
Profit $$
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#69 - 2013-07-26 14:48:28 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
You miss the point. EHP can be changed but you will always have the same resist gaps. By making the reists gaps down to player choice, the gankers either need to be lazy and just hit for the highest possible EHP or they have to do their homework and work it out on the fly.
Resists make next to no difference because all your EHP is in hull, which could only be changed to a flat percentage using a DC mod.

The problem is that adding the ability to fit a suitcase forces them to reduce the cargo space by 22%, so you get to choose between a ship that can't carry as much but tanks a little bit better or a ship that carries more and is much weaker (and everyone will choose the latter). I prefer to have one that has more HP and can carry more, which will be an impossibility to achieve since slots will require you to choose one over the other.

Quote:
At the moment though, it takes absolutely no effort to perform a freighter gank. There's no thinking or consideration involved.
…which is why it's such a common event and everyone is doing it. Oh wait, it's exceedingly rare, due to the effort and work involved in make it all come together (and that's just the kill — making money from it requires even more).

Yeah, that's fair. I suppose a change like that would require moving HP from hull to armor/shield which would be pretty tough to balance. Low slots would need to be restricted to disallow cargo expanders too, which would be as different to other ships as their lack of slots is now and would require special handling no doubt.

I wouldn't say exceedingly rare. It's common enough for regular threads in GD about it, and with ISBoxer there's plenty of people that can do it effectively solo.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#70 - 2013-07-26 14:56:57 UTC
Quote:
Yeah, that's fair. I suppose a change like that would require moving HP from hull to armor/shield which would be pretty tough to balance. Low slots would need to be restricted to disallow cargo expanders too, which would be as different to other ships as their lack of slots is now and would require special handling no doubt.

I wouldn't say exceedingly rare. It's common enough for regular threads in GD about it, and with ISBoxer there's plenty of people that can do it effectively solo.


Balancing it alone would be a nightmare of epic proportions. The old law of unintended consequences could come back to bite Rise or Fozzie on that one awfully fast.

Idk, I'd have to say it's fairly rare, to be honest. Mostly if you consider the sheer amount of unmolested freighter traffic (which is a lot) moving around out there. If you take that into account, it's not a very large number of the overall percentage.

Also, I would hesitate to take even a cursory straw poll of the tone of the forums as any kind of evidence. People come on GD to cry, and make fun of people crying. Hell, that last guy, the one who kept posting GM communications? We were talking about one single solitary gank for what? Two weeks?

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#71 - 2013-07-26 15:00:59 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
You miss the point. EHP can be changed but you will always have the same resist gaps. By making the reists gaps down to player choice, the gankers either need to be lazy and just hit for the highest possible EHP or they have to do their homework and work it out on the fly.
Resists make next to no difference because all your EHP is in hull, which could only be changed to a flat percentage using a DC mod.

The problem is that adding the ability to fit a suitcase forces them to reduce the cargo space by 22%, so you get to choose between a ship that can't carry as much but tanks a little bit better or a ship that carries more and is much weaker (and everyone will choose the latter). I prefer to have one that has more HP and can carry more, which will be an impossibility to achieve since slots will require you to choose one over the other.

Quote:
At the moment though, it takes absolutely no effort to perform a freighter gank. There's no thinking or consideration involved.
…which is why it's such a common event and everyone is doing it. Oh wait, it's exceedingly rare, due to the effort and work involved in make it all come together (and that's just the kill — making money from it requires even more).

Yeah, that's fair. I suppose a change like that would require moving HP from hull to armor/shield which would be pretty tough to balance. Low slots would need to be restricted to disallow cargo expanders too, which would be as different to other ships as their lack of slots is now and would require special handling no doubt.

I wouldn't say exceedingly rare. It's common enough for regular threads in GD about it, and with ISBoxer there's plenty of people that can do it effectively solo.


It's still exceedingly rare if you take into account the number of freighter that cross those 0.5 system without getting ganked.
Jorden Ishonen
Doomheim
#72 - 2013-07-26 15:14:18 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:


I wouldn't say exceedingly rare. It's common enough for regular threads in GD about it, and with ISBoxer there's plenty of people that can do it effectively solo.


The people who post on the forums after losing a freighter generally share one or more qualities:

1. Ignorant. (If you know how suicide gankers work, your chances of getting ganked are effectively zero)
2. Lazy. (Not making the effort to make yourself low profile if you know how to do it)
3. Entitled. (Feeling like you shouldn't HAVE to deal with ganking, because you alone in EVE should be completely unopposed by other players)

These same qualities are what lead them to post on the forums in the first place. Being ignorant, they assume ganking has no counter and want to complain. Being lazy, they want game mechanics to work more in their favor rather than making effort to safeguards their cargo, and want to complain. Being entitled, they feel that bad things should never happen to them and want to complain.

If, out of the hundreds of thousands of EVE players, 100 get ganked in the space of a month, and only one in ten have these qualities, that's still ten threads a month. Combine with the fact that these threads tend to stay afloat for days or even weeks while tears are harvested, it's easy to feel like freighters are dying left and right. But in actuality? I've never seen a freighter gank, nor the aftermath of one, and I have a couple of hauling alts that spend a lot of time in space.

I wouldn't base the commonality of something by how often it pops up on GD.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#73 - 2013-07-26 15:24:59 UTC
Jorden Ishonen wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:


I wouldn't say exceedingly rare. It's common enough for regular threads in GD about it, and with ISBoxer there's plenty of people that can do it effectively solo.


The people who post on the forums after losing a freighter generally share one or more qualities:

1. Ignorant. (If you know how suicide gankers work, your chances of getting ganked are effectively zero)
2. Lazy. (Not making the effort to make yourself low profile if you know how to do it)
3. Entitled. (Feeling like you shouldn't HAVE to deal with ganking, because you alone in EVE should be completely unopposed by other players)

These same qualities are what lead them to post on the forums in the first place. Being ignorant, they assume ganking has no counter and want to complain. Being lazy, they want game mechanics to work more in their favor rather than making effort to safeguards their cargo, and want to complain. Being entitled, they feel that bad things should never happen to them and want to complain.

If, out of the hundreds of thousands of EVE players, 100 get ganked in the space of a month, and only one in ten have these qualities, that's still ten threads a month. Combine with the fact that these threads tend to stay afloat for days or even weeks while tears are harvested, it's easy to feel like freighters are dying left and right. But in actuality? I've never seen a freighter gank, nor the aftermath of one, and I have a couple of hauling alts that spend a lot of time in space.

I wouldn't base the commonality of something by how often it pops up on GD.

Absolutely, but it's still a fair indicator of if something would qualify as "exceptionally rare"
Realistically though just looking over this: https://zkillboard.com/group/513/kills/
Shows that it's not what i would consider rare (not a lot of those are not ganks, but you can pick out the ones that are with relative ease). Most high sec freighter traffic is red frog and pushx, and they specifically avoid loads that encourage ganking, so they would impact the ration of pilots:ganks.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#74 - 2013-07-26 15:45:24 UTC
Quote:
Absolutely, but it's still a fair indicator of if something would qualify as "exceptionally rare"
Realistically though just looking over this: https://zkillboard.com/group/513/kills/
Shows that it's not what i would consider rare (not a lot of those are not ganks, but you can pick out the ones that are with relative ease). Most high sec freighter traffic is red frog and pushx, and they specifically avoid loads that encourage ganking, so they would impact the ration of pilots:ganks.


Yeah, but really, what purpose is served by removing Push and RedFrog from the ratio?

We already know that mostly only morons get ganked in a freighter.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Soylent Jade
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#75 - 2013-07-26 15:56:03 UTC
First, LOL yeah I'm sure you just happened to be looking at killboards and came across this gank and were so outraged by it, that you were compelled to start a thread about it...riiiiiiight. Even if this isn't you, I'm sure he'll be thanking you for putting an even bigger target on him in the future.

Don't haul 4B ISK through a 0.5 system (or any system for that matter). You were in a corp and alliance...why no escort? Why would you not expect to die in a 15 vs 1 encounter? Should a mission runner in a blingy RNI be immune to ganks by 15 destroyers, too, just because his 5B ship is worth 20x more than the attacking force?

If it takes obvious ISBoxer ganks like this to get CCP to ban it, then I hope there is a gank like this every day.

Making hisec better...one Catalyst at a time

minerbumping.com
Jorden Ishonen
Doomheim
#76 - 2013-07-26 16:01:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Jorden Ishonen
Lucas Kell wrote:

Absolutely, but it's still a fair indicator of if something would qualify as "exceptionally rare"
Realistically though just looking over this: https://zkillboard.com/group/513/kills/
Shows that it's not what i would consider rare (not a lot of those are not ganks, but you can pick out the ones that are with relative ease). Most high sec freighter traffic is red frog and pushx, and they specifically avoid loads that encourage ganking, so they would impact the ration of pilots:ganks.



I tried to navigate that website, but it's pretty awful. Most people use eve-kill, so I went there to try to get some data.

I couldn't figure out if it's possible to view ship deaths by class, so what i ended up doing was looking at Goonswarms freighter kill record. It stands at 22. Let's assuming they have a fruitful last few days of July and the count stands at 30 at months end (not including the freighter that died in 0.0). Before I was pulling that 100 number out of my ass as an easy number to use in an example, but you know what? I could believe that Goons constitute 30% of all freighter ganks. 100 per month may actually be in the right ballpark for freighter ganks, which would certainly qualify as "rare" in my book.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#77 - 2013-07-26 16:20:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
Hello GoodSir wrote:
Why is it that freighters have such low hp that they can get ganked in highsec by a bunch of destroyers? It just seems silly. eve killboard is kind of depressing.


I know what you mean.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Luce_%28DD-522%29

Quote:
USS Luce (DD-522), a Fletcher-class destroyer, was the second ship of the United States Navy to be named for Rear Admiral Stephen B. Luce (1827–1917).


Quote:
Completely surprising the enemy, the attack was successful; Luce destroyed a 2,000-ton enemy freighter in the action.


I told the Japanese to petition because Dessies should not be able to kill freighters, but they didn't and ended up losing the war. i bet it's hold was full of PLEX.

Big smile
Jorden Ishonen
Doomheim
#78 - 2013-07-26 16:23:25 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Hello GoodSir wrote:
Why is it that freighters have such low hp that they can get ganked in highsec by a bunch of destroyers? It just seems silly. eve killboard is kind of depressing.


I know what you mean.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Luce_%28DD-522%29

Quote:
USS Luce (DD-522), a Fletcher-class destroyer, was the second ship of the United States Navy to be named for Rear Admiral Stephen B. Luce (1827–1917).


Quote:
Completely surprising the enemy, the attack was successful; Luce destroyed a 2,000-ton enemy freighter in the action.


I told the Japanese to petition because Dessies should not be able to kill freighters, but they didn't and ended up losing the war. i bet it's hold was full of PLEX.

Big smile


U.S. is OP, nerf U.S. (buff U.K. plox)
Malcolm Shinhwa
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#79 - 2013-07-26 17:42:33 UTC
... is really hoping they add low slots to freighters... cargo expander tank ftw!

[i]"The purpose of fighting is to win. There is no possible victory in defense. The sword is more important than the shield and skill is more important than either. The final weapon is the brain. All else is supplemental[/i]."
Bob Blunts
#80 - 2013-07-26 18:01:23 UTC
Louise Beethoven wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Louise Beethoven wrote:
Any suggestions that makes life harder for gankers will be slandered on General Discussion, you're wasting your time


Of course stupid ideas will be called stupid. The solution is for people to stop posting stupid things.


Stupid Ideas according to General Discussion

  • Make it more difficult to do risk-free ganking
  • Make life easier in anyway for 'carebears'


Good Ideas according to General Discussion

  • Nerf high-sec income streams


Have I got it right?



Almost. Just remove the 'risk-free' from in front of ganking and put it in front of carebears where it belongs. Other than that it looks good.


HTH.