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ECM: OP or not, it does not belong.

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Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#81 - 2013-07-25 08:27:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Morrigan LeSante
His point was it doesnt NEED to be close, it can damp you, tackle you and kill you and there's NOTHING you can do about it. Just like a falcon. Except it'll have a better tank because it doesnt need rigs and lows to make its ECM have a hope in hell of working Smile

Irrespective, if you had some FoF ammo - as I suggested previous in this thread and others that should be introduced - you'd have an option for a limited counter to ALL ewar that's not a fitting sacrifice (ECCM, sebo) or flat out impossible (TD).

I've never seen, but have heard of people, driving ewar birds off the field by utilising long range platforms (cerberus was named recently, perhaps this thread, perhaps the HAC one) because of the huge frailty of ECM ships they dont last any time at all under fire. Its another option but rarer.

As I say, FoF ammo removes the "but I cant do anything" complaint attached to all ewar - and I've yet to hear a sound debate against it except "well, FoF missiles suck" which is little better than "I want to be immune to all ewar" since its an available counter at no fitting cost. Perhaps I've overlooked something there though. I know some ewar ships who have had *very* rude shocks when the enemy pilot opened up with FoF missiles - hello Mr paper-tank.
Whitehound
#82 - 2013-07-25 08:31:39 UTC
Diesel47 wrote:
Whitehound wrote:

It is not how the Arazu is flown in PvP. It dampens the range of your sensors down, holds a long-ranged point on you so that you can neither lock or warp away.

A Falcon has to come a lot closer than an Arazu before it can point you.


Ok? And?

You seem to know little about e-war, so I am telling you about it.

Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.
Willie Horton
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#83 - 2013-07-25 08:32:23 UTC
Diesel47 wrote:


Or you can kill your tackler and leave the field aswell. Atleast there is a fighting chance.


Well why would other guy give you any chance?When you have fair fight in EvE other side did something wrong.
Diesel47
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#84 - 2013-07-25 08:34:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Diesel47
Willie Horton wrote:
Diesel47 wrote:


Or you can kill your tackler and leave the field aswell. Atleast there is a fighting chance.


Well why would other guy give you any chance?When you have fair fight in EvE other side did something wrong.




People are not machines, they do not do everything right all the time.

Whitehound wrote:

You seem to know little about e-war, so I am telling you about it.


Now you are just mad. Lol




Morrigan LeSante wrote:
His point was it doesnt NEED to be close, it can damp you, tackle you and kill you and there's NOTHING you can do about it. Just like a falcon. Except it'll have a better tank because it doesnt need rigs and lows to make its ECM have a hope in hell of working Smile

Irrespective, if you had some FoF ammo - as I suggested previous in this thread and others that should be introduced - you'd have an option for a limited counter to ALL ewar that's not a fitting sacrifice (ECCM, sebo) or flat out impossible (TD).

I've never seen, but have heard of people, driving ewar birds off the field by utilising long range platforms (cerberus was named recently, perhaps this thread, perhaps the HAC one) because of the huge frailty of ECM ships they dont last any time at all under fire. Its another option but rarer.

As I say, FoF ammo removes the "but I cant do anything" complaint attached to all ewar - and I've yet to hear a sound debate against it except "well, FoF missiles suck" which is little better than "I want to be immune to all ewar" since its an available counter at no fitting cost. Perhaps I've overlooked something there though. I know some ewar ships who have had *very* rude shocks when the enemy pilot opened up with FoF missiles - hello Mr paper-tank.


Yes, fof ammo would counter ECM.

My OP suggests that ECM, whether overpowered or weak... Isn't in line with the other mechanics of the game. The problem is the random nature (a dice roll, as somebody called it) of the module. Either you jam the guy and everything he can do goes away or you don't. It all depends on a chance, which is something that needs to be changed.

Other forms of ewar give you a reduction in a specific area and there are always ways to resist them to a certain degree. ECM should be brought into line with how the others work.
Whitehound
#85 - 2013-07-25 08:39:35 UTC
Diesel47 wrote:
...
My OP suggests that ECM, whether overpowered or weak... Isn't in line with the other mechanics of the game. The problem is the random nature (a dice roll, as somebody called it) of the module. Either you jam the guy and everything he can do goes away or you don't. It all depends on a chance, which is something that needs to be changed.

Other forms of ewar give you a reduction in a specific area and there are always ways to resist them to a certain degree. ECM should be brought into line with how the others work.

Some form is random others are predictable. It is the same with turrets and missiles. Turrets deal random damage and missiles deal predictable damage. It is what makes EVE a complex game. Maybe it is too complicated for you.

Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#86 - 2013-07-25 08:41:14 UTC
Yes - and you have a case there around the binary random mechanic - but people are muddying it by claiming it's overpowered. It's relatively balanced today, if a crappy mechanic.

However your point also brings me back to mine of one must also consider the hulls - can you imagine what a rook could pull if we freed 2-3 of those mids up, the lows and the rigs whilst it STILL maintained todays effectiveness, albeit via a different mechanic (yet to you proposed)? It's be a horror.
Diesel47
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#87 - 2013-07-25 08:45:14 UTC
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
Yes - and you have a case there around the binary random mechanic - but people are muddying it by claiming it's overpowered. It's relatively balanced today, if a crappy mechanic.


Yep. Spot on.
Willie Horton
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#88 - 2013-07-25 08:47:28 UTC
Diesel47 wrote:


People are not machines, they do not do everything right all the time.



True.

What I wanted to say,no matter how much you try to get fair fight in EvE the harder it gets.Will you say ECM prevented fair fight or blob ,or god knows what .

ECM is chance based and that is what suck the most and I think that is what most of ppl have problem with.More cause no matter how much you invest in your ECCM there will be still chance to get jamed.It sucks ? Yes ofc ,but in same time it sucks to be damped to **** ,to be tracked so you cant even hit space station,or being neuted in one cycle in frig and look how drones chew you ship.It suck when you get web on you from 30k or scramed from god know where ....etc etc.

If you dont like fighting ECM groups of ppl ,just fly past and get another fight.If you plan to do it ,well at least fit some ECCM and get prepared.
Diesel47
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#89 - 2013-07-25 08:53:58 UTC
Willie Horton wrote:
Diesel47 wrote:


People are not machines, they do not do everything right all the time.



True.

What I wanted to say,no matter how much you try to get fair fight in EvE the harder it gets.Will you say ECM prevented fair fight or blob ,or god knows what .

ECM is chance based and that is what suck the most and I think that is what most of ppl have problem with.More cause no matter how much you invest in your ECCM there will be still chance to get jamed.It sucks ? Yes ofc ,but in same time it sucks to be damped to **** ,to be tracked so you cant even hit space station,or being neuted in one cycle in frig and look how drones chew you ship.It suck when you get web on you from 30k or scramed from god know where ....etc etc.

If you dont like fighting ECM groups of ppl ,just fly past and get another fight.If you plan to do it ,well at least fit some ECCM and get prepared.




This is not about me, this is about improving the game.

ECM sucks because it is a terribly designed mechanic.

Getting damped and neuted suck too, but their mechanics make sense and are generally accepted. This isn't the case with ECM...
Whitehound
#90 - 2013-07-25 09:03:09 UTC
Diesel47 wrote:
Getting damped and neuted suck too, but their mechanics make sense and are generally accepted. This isn't the case with ECM...

Players love ECM.

Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.
Willie Horton
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#91 - 2013-07-25 09:16:16 UTC
Diesel47 wrote:


This is not about me, this is about improving the game.

ECM sucks because it is a terribly designed mechanic.

Getting damped and neuted suck too, but their mechanics make sense and are generally accepted. This isn't the case with ECM...


So you want to say mechanics of other types of EWAR is ok?Like ships with no bonuses abusing damps and tracks.Tell me do you see more ships with with multispec jams in mids or you see more ships with other ewar ?

I never said ECM is nor bad ,I just want to say not much more than other EWAR depending on situation.
Diesel47
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#92 - 2013-07-25 09:23:18 UTC
Willie Horton wrote:
Diesel47 wrote:


This is not about me, this is about improving the game.

ECM sucks because it is a terribly designed mechanic.

Getting damped and neuted suck too, but their mechanics make sense and are generally accepted. This isn't the case with ECM...


So you want to say mechanics of other types of EWAR is ok?Like ships with no bonuses abusing damps and tracks.Tell me do you see more ships with with multispec jams in mids or you see more ships with other ewar ?

I never said ECM is nor bad ,I just want to say not much more than other EWAR depending on situation.




Damps could be overpowered, but their mechanics are fine.

If an unbonused ship can use damps to a degree you consider abusive... That is because it's base stats are too strong, not because the mechanics are broken or bad.

ECM just has bad mechanics.
Bigg Gun
T.I.E. Inc.
#93 - 2013-07-25 12:04:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Bigg Gun
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
You're only permajamming 4 ships if you massively luck out - and with your minuscule EHP, a space flea can fart in your general direction and you'll explode.



Yay for giant space fleas with bad digestion !!!

Also you can fit a 1600 plate on the falcon and have very nice EHP.

Edit:

Damps mechanics should be changed so they stack very badly , reducing locking range to 50 % is fine , reducing it to 5% is not.
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#94 - 2013-07-25 12:22:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Morrigan LeSante
Yes - but again, if you tank it, you do so by sacrificing distortion amps. This means your jams start getting real flaky (unless you're picking on weaker ships) and at that point its just not *enough* of a buffer to remain on the field regardless.

ECM boats, to be truly dangerous (to roughly equivalent ships) need a minimum of 4 mids, a couple of lows and some rigs to be considered effective EWAR ships - NONE of the others have that limitation or slot dedication required. Which is why I think a) its *approximately* balanced and b) if ECM as a mechanic changes you also need to review the hulls at the same time.

Edit: any way you cut it, the OP is right about the mechanics - its far too all or nothing imo.
Phaade
ATRAX.
Shadow Cartel
#95 - 2013-07-25 18:30:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Phaade
Diesel47 wrote:
The plain truth is that the mechanics of ECM altogether are a bad idea. Every single day there are threads made (like this one) that complain about how **** poor ECM is. I don't understand why CCP haven't done anything to fix it yet.

A % chance to make a ship almost completely worthless? This doesn't belongs in a game that is rule and math driven.

That and the fact that ECM: when it works.. is the absolute best type of EWAR possible. There are little to no ways to fight it off.

Some examples:

If you are sensor damped, you can fight it by moving your ship closer. If you can't do that, atleast you have the option of trying to kill whatever is tackling you and warp off.

If you are neuted, you can make wise use of your cap using modules until you run out, then you will have to prioritize or depend on your non-cap using modules. Or if you have a cap booster, then you can use that.

If you are tracking disrupted, either you will have to get closer (Range disruption) or lower your transversal (Tracking speed disruption). Again... fightable.

But if you get hit by ECM, there is nothing you can do but try to fly away from the source (which could easily follow) and HOPE that you don't get hit by more cycles. If you are tackled, then you are most likely ******. You also have no way to activate any modules on the enemy tackler. In most causes you just wait to die because there is nothing you can do.

This makes it much stronger than other forms of EWAR, it prevents you from using any targeted modules while the others allow some opportunities for pilots to make some good plays and combat their effects.


I do agree that CCP has made some advances in nerfing ECM (minor patches on a much larger problem IMO), such as the range nerfs and the sensor compensation skills. However this will change nothing. You can nerf ECM to being ****, but it will still be a terrible mechanic. I am asking for a rework of the entire ewar to make it into something that makes more sense and fits in better into the game. It's about time you do something about this mess CCP.

Does anybody share this viewpoint? Or have any ideas on how to change ECM entirely? I have a few and could post them if requested.


TL;DR : there is none. gtfo.



ECM is ******** and has no place in this game. It's so much stronger than other forms of EWar I honestly cannot comprehend how CCP Devs justify it.

Other EWar are debuffs, ECM completely locks you out from doing ANYTHING. There are so many other things that could be Caldari's form of EWar, but ECM is just stupid.

Incredibly simple fix while maintaining this stupid mechanic:

Ewar jams simply break lock (or for 3 seconds), cycle time remains 20 seconds. Breaking your lock would throw you off enough, being locked out for 20 GD seconds is ludicrous.


+ mo'fuckin 1
Phaade
ATRAX.
Shadow Cartel
#96 - 2013-07-25 18:41:37 UTC
Ginger Barbarella wrote:
Diesel47 wrote:
The plain truth is that the mechanics of ECM altogether are a bad idea. Every single day there are threads made (like this one) that complain about how **** poor ECM is.
-- snipped--



Then why the hell did you start another one?

ECM is fine, your tears in mildly amusing (lose a fight to someone using ewar?), but overall I rate this a 0/10.


ECM is not, has never been, and will never ben fine.

It's a broken, flawed, and poorly thought out mechanic. Some tard coming into the forums proclaiming ECM is worthless because he can't permanently and simultaneously lock out 3 hostile ships is case in point.

If you truly believe that ECM is in line with other forms of Ewar, then God help you.
Whitehound
#97 - 2013-07-25 19:25:23 UTC
Phaade wrote:
Other EWar are debuffs, ECM completely locks you out from doing ANYTHING.

In case you are being serious, know you still can:

  • fly away
  • repair armor / boost shields
  • fire FoF missiles
  • launch drones
  • fire smartbombs
  • turn on a Target Lock Breaker
  • turn on ECCM
  • complain about it

Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.
ISD Ezwal
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#98 - 2013-07-25 22:53:27 UTC
Now I have this strange feeling of déjà vu...

Thread cleaned of some rule breaking posts and those that quoted them.

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Diesel47
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#99 - 2013-07-26 13:56:58 UTC
Whitehound wrote:
Phaade wrote:
Other EWar are debuffs, ECM completely locks you out from doing ANYTHING.

In case you are being serious, know you still can:

  • fly away
  • repair armor / boost shields
  • fire FoF missiles
  • launch drones
  • fire smartbombs
  • turn on a Target Lock Breaker
  • turn on ECCM
  • complain about it


Oh and make sure you just ignore this guy.

He has never PVPed before and has no clue what hes talking about most of the time.
Cordo Draken
ABOS Industrial Enterprises
#100 - 2013-07-26 19:48:14 UTC
Diesel47 wrote:
Whitehound wrote:
Phaade wrote:
Other EWar are debuffs, ECM completely locks you out from doing ANYTHING.

In case you are being serious, know you still can:

  • fly away
  • repair armor / boost shields
  • fire FoF missiles
  • launch drones
  • fire smartbombs
  • turn on a Target Lock Breaker
  • turn on ECCM
  • complain about it


Oh and make sure you just ignore this guy.

He has never PVPed before and has no clue what hes talking about most of the time.


Dude, have you ever considered that Whitehound is just an Alt... Most like from a dude who's played from the beginning? And/or has waaaay more experience than you? You continue to amaze me with your utter lack of intellect.

Morrigan LeSante,
I actually like the FoF Ammo idea... But how do you propose it would work for guns? The FoF missiles is a very unclear device... Does it go after the closest target? Largest sig? What determines how it tracks? After that, how then does gun ammo go FoF? As that ammo does have it's own propulsion, nor it's own guidance system. The only thing would to be able to Manually control your gun turrets. Oh wait, where have I heard that before?

At any rate, please elaborate on your FoF ammo idea.

Whomever said, "You only get one shot to make a good impression," was utterly wrong. I've made plenty of great impressions with my Autocannons 