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Reasoning for missile equality
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Nemesis Factor
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1 - 2011-11-10 07:40:36 UTC
One thing that always bothered me about missiles was the lack of difference between ammo types. The only difference between the types of a class of missile is the damage type, which I feel is the primary reason behind Caldari dominance in PVE. They can pick and choose their damage type with no loss in performance. Combined with their infinite range it gives them a clear advantage for most PVE scenarios.

The closest comparison we can make is with drones. The clear difference between drones is the damage types, but every drone is different insofar as speed, inertia, range, etc. Why is this not done with missiles? Give certain damage types different advantages or disadvantages to mix things up a bit.

Lets compare a couple of sentry drones to a couple of cruise missiles for argument's sake. The Garde has high thermal damage, as well as superior tracking to other sentries. However it's disadvantage is it's very low optimal range (<30KM). The Warden has an extreme range (70KM optimal), but less damage (in kinetic) and poor tracking. Even if we could carry all types of sentry drones (which we cannot, compared to a Raven with every type of missile), we would be unable to have a drone for every situation. For instance an orbiting Sansha at 75KM, which is strong against Kinetic is far beyond the range of my Gardes. I have to hope I brought some Ogres, but with a limited drone bay, it's not likely.

I think missiles need to be looked at, not only for their overlooked equality, but for their insane ranges (cruise missiles still fly like, 300KM right?). If there is no scenario where it might be a good idea to fit a missile flight time rig or two with cruise missiles, then the system is flawed. When I bring my drones to a mission, I have to take into account enemy range, weaknesses, radial velocity, etc. Missile users need only consider the damage types. How is that fair?
Ladie Harlot
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#2 - 2011-11-10 07:41:45 UTC
Nemesis Factor wrote:
Combined with their infinite range

Missiles have infinite range?

The artist formerly known as Ladie Scarlet.
Akirei Scytale
Okami Syndicate
#3 - 2011-11-10 07:42:41 UTC
What?

Most Caldari missile ships get bonuses only to Kinetic missiles.

Minmatar can change damage type at will too.

Missiles do not have infinite range. They have a velocity and a maximum flight time. Do the math.
ACE McFACE
Dirt 'n' Glitter
Local Is Primary
#4 - 2011-11-10 08:57:51 UTC
WTB Infinte ranged Rockets, HAMs and Torps

Now, more than ever, we need a dislike button.
Ciar Meara
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#5 - 2011-11-10 09:14:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Ciar Meara
Ladie Harlot wrote:
Nemesis Factor wrote:
Combined with their infinite range

Missiles have infinite range?


missiles have infinite range?

- [img]http://go-dl1.eve-files.com/media/corp/janus/ceosig.jpg[/img] [yellow]English only please. Zymurgist[/yellow]
Nemesis Factor
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#6 - 2011-11-10 21:15:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Nemesis Factor
Akirei Scytale wrote:
What?

Most Caldari missile ships get bonuses only to Kinetic missiles.

Minmatar can change damage type at will too.

Missiles do not have infinite range. They have a velocity and a maximum flight time. Do the math.


The range thing was a joke. ie: Cruise missiles can fly farther than you could ever hope or need to target. They may as well fly forever is what I'm saying. If you read carefully you can see where I wrote 300KM somewhere. And that's just optimal. To match the damage I have to use antimatter which gives me an optimal of like, 18KM. Anyway, not the point.

I'm not talking about ship bonuses, I'm taking about the default statistics for the ammo only.

Also, if you look at Minmatar ammo, you will see damage types are not the only difference between them.

http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Item_Database:Ammunition_&_Charges:Projectile_Ammo:Standard_Ammo:Large

Projectile users also have to take into consideration base shield damage, base armor damage, range bonus/penalties AND tracking bonus/penalites. In addition to this, although they have better damage selection typing than lasers or hybrids, they STILL have to split their damage between two types.

As I said, why do missile users ONLY have to take damage types into account? Why don't they have to split their damage types? Why do they have unnecessarily long range without mods or skills?

Am I wrong? Someone should be able to explain why they have this advantage. Please don't mention NPC tendancy to use defenders. Those could easily be toned down if missiles were balanced and no one uses them in pvp. travel time doesn't warrant this kind of advantage.
Written Word
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#7 - 2011-11-10 21:16:07 UTC
I'd like to load ammunition for my lasers that does other types of damage.
Sentient Blade
Crisis Atmosphere
Coalition of the Unfortunate
#8 - 2011-11-10 21:19:12 UTC
Is this a case of "OMG NERF SOMETHING I DON'T USE!!!" ?

It's a missile, it goes to a target and it does its thing.
Nemesis Factor
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#9 - 2011-11-10 21:26:46 UTC
Sentient Blade wrote:
Is this a case of "OMG NERF SOMETHING I DON'T USE!!!" ?

It's a missile, it goes to a target and it does its thing.


Why are you on the defensive? You have the same argument as cap ship pilots.
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
#10 - 2011-11-10 21:26:47 UTC
Nemesis Factor wrote:
Am I wrong? Someone should be able to explain why they have this advantage. Please don't mention NPC tendancy to use defenders. Those could easily be toned down if missiles were balanced and no one uses them in pvp. travel time doesn't warrant this kind of advantage.

Travel time certainly DOES warrant a lot of things.
And don't forget, not just defenders kill missiles in flight, smartbombs do too.

Face off a fleet of Ravens with cruise missiles against a fleet of Megathrons with large rails (or any other gun-based BSs with the long range version of their weapons) at optimal weapon distances or beyond WITHOUT any bubbles in play and tell me who will make more kills... and then ask yourself "why".

As for the rest of the missiles, heavy missiles don't exactly have that much range.
While a fleet of Drakes used to be a favourite thing to use not so long ago, have you ever seen a clip where a fleet of Drakes was facing a "disco fleet" ? Here's a hint as to what happens : the fleet of Drakes hardly manages to deal any damage at all.

So... the target can escape before the damage gets there if you go long-range missile, the damage is decent but nothing to write home about, your damage can be countered not just by the (woefully underpowered) defender missiles BUT ALSO smartbombs (which seem to be making a comeback every time missileboats become more popular, and they don't exactly hurt against tacklers and drones either)... overall, while not PERFECTLY balanced, I would say the difference is far less important than you seem to think.

Akita T evewiki profile | | | Build your own EVE-ready PC
Sasha Notion
Ominous Orders
#11 - 2011-11-10 21:27:57 UTC
missiles aren't overpowered, they're just the closest thing EVE has to easy mode
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
#12 - 2011-11-10 21:33:45 UTC
That being said, I would NOT be against a differentiation in missile stats.

Like, say:

EM missiles - lowest raw damage, best explosion radius and velocity, average range (average speed, average flight time)
TH missiles - highest raw damage, worst explosion radius and velocity, short range (low speed, average flight time)
KIN missiles - average raw damage, average explosion radius and velocity, long range (high speed, high flight time)
EXP missiles - average raw damage, good explosion radius and velocity, average range (high speed, low flight time)

Akita T evewiki profile | | | Build your own EVE-ready PC
Nemesis Factor
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#13 - 2011-11-10 21:41:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Nemesis Factor
I don't think tweaking missiles to be more inline with other weapon's ammo would significantly hurt them. I have no complaints about DPS, I would even be for a damage buff and reduced defenders if we could only get them to do split damage types and variable range and damage like very other weapon. They may be balanced in pvp scenarios but they are certainly not in PVE.

Edit: And do cruise missiles really need the range they currently have? Like I said there should be a reason to fit travel time mods with cruise missiles.
Carl Darcy
Matter Out of Place
#14 - 2011-11-10 21:43:51 UTC
I'd be happy if missles were launched from their actual bays and not out the middle of my ship in a big lump of smoke.

It's only after we've lost everything that we're free to do anything.
iKill Giants
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#15 - 2011-11-10 21:45:58 UTC
Differences between weapon types is terrible, even when balanced! I demand that we all have the exact same stats for every weapon and that the only difference be the turret models.

Oh wait
Nemesis Factor
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#16 - 2011-11-10 21:50:32 UTC
Can't tell where you are coming from? Are you suggesting that I am suggesting we give missiles the same stats as guns? And we make all the guns have the same stats?
Zyress
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#17 - 2011-11-10 21:56:31 UTC
Nemesis Factor wrote:
[quote=Akirei Scytale]What?


The range thing was a joke. ie: Cruise missiles can fly farther than you could ever hope or need to target.



So why are you complaining about an unusable range advantage?
Kuhn Arashi
State War Academy
Caldari State
#18 - 2011-11-10 22:00:30 UTC
Nemesis Factor wrote:
I don't think tweaking missiles to be more inline with other weapon's ammo would significantly hurt them. I have no complaints about DPS, I would even be for a damage buff and reduced defenders if we could only get them to do split damage types and variable range and damage like very other weapon. They may be balanced in pvp scenarios but they are certainly not in PVE.

Edit: And do cruise missiles really need the range they currently have? Like I said there should be a reason to fit travel time mods with cruise missiles.


Cruise missiles wouldn't really be cruise missiles if they couldn't cruise across the grid.
But really, when is the last time you saw Cruise missiles in PVP?

-In solo pvp, they're only advantage is range, which means the target is just going to laugh and run away.

-In small gang pvp you might have one or two ships at long range from a group or gate camp that sling missiles
but they'll be lucky to hit them for much, if at all before the target is dead.

-in fleet pvp, since missiles take so long to travel, enemy logistics will know who to rep before the damage is applied
almost completely negating your actual damage on target.

Aside from cruise missile range, the other missiles are balanced well enough with other weapons systems.
I would like to see a damage buff to Heavy Assault missiles though, Heavies are too close in dps when range and exp radius are taken into effect.
Nemesis Factor
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#19 - 2011-11-10 23:05:01 UTC
Kuhn Arashi wrote:

Cruise missiles wouldn't really be cruise missiles if they couldn't cruise across the grid.
But really, when is the last time you saw Cruise missiles in PVP?

-In solo pvp, they're only advantage is range, which means the target is just going to laugh and run away.

-In small gang pvp you might have one or two ships at long range from a group or gate camp that sling missiles
but they'll be lucky to hit them for much, if at all before the target is dead.

-in fleet pvp, since missiles take so long to travel, enemy logistics will know who to rep before the damage is applied
almost completely negating your actual damage on target.

Aside from cruise missile range, the other missiles are balanced well enough with other weapons systems.
I would like to see a damage buff to Heavy Assault missiles though, Heavies are too close in dps when range and exp radius are taken into effect.



I'm not arguing PVP applications. i'm sure there is a way to balance them without affecting pvp too much.
Thur Barbek
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#20 - 2011-11-10 23:42:27 UTC
Nemesis Factor wrote:

I'm not arguing PVP applications. i'm sure there is a way to balance them without affecting pvp too much.


You do realize that the fact that missiles are horrible at pvp is part of the balance right? Missiles are good at pve, bad at pvp. Thus their advantages make more sense when compared to a pvp weapon.

Also missile range means nothing when most warp disputers only works 24k away.
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