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Just got my first Carrier!
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Tsukino Stareine
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#21 - 2013-07-23 15:13:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Tsukino Stareine
Ciyrine wrote:
you cycle mwd once it gets you into warp in like 11 secs had a topic about it before

I definitely dont claim to have any practical experience but ive been talking to peeps here for like 2 months now about things like carrier/rattlesnake etc

And for carrier there were all kinds of things talked about in terms of carrier ratting.

Neut- neut out the frig pointing
smartbomb- when the frig gets into close orbit these were supposed to help kill it(i was dubious about this one)
MWD- see someone in local quick warp out


Like the other people told you: fight aligned when you're in a carrier.

I also find it funny that googling it brought your post as the first result simply because nobody was silly enough to think of it before.

1 Neut won't be enough to shut down something tackling you since their cap recharges faster than your neut cycles.

1 Smart bomb will be useless to deter frigates, sending 15 hobgoblins after them is a much better deterrent

Art of Explosions
Ciyrine
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#22 - 2013-07-23 15:27:07 UTC
the mwd wasnt my idea and at this point theres several topics talking about it since I wanted to cover all the angles.

Fighting aligned is fine if your using fighters but the highest isk/hr ratting i read about was from sentinel carriers which fight stationary. Then mwd gets you warped away in 11 sec which is quite fast for a carrier

i wasnt convinced about the smart bomb

but

a heavy neut hits a frig for 600 cap reduction. most frigs have like 400 cap so one cycle caps them out and you hit warp
Tsukino Stareine
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#23 - 2013-07-23 15:40:17 UTC
When you cap something out the module isn't instantly shut off, it finishes it's cycle before shutting down.

As for aligned vs sentries

you don't have to align at max speed, set yourself aligned at 5m/s and it will be enough time to clear the room before you get out of range of sentries and it cuts warp time down enough since you already have a direction.

Art of Explosions
Ciyrine
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#24 - 2013-07-23 16:49:24 UTC
Tsukino Stareine wrote:
When you cap something out the module isn't instantly shut off, it finishes it's cycle before shutting down.

As for aligned vs sentries

you don't have to align at max speed, set yourself aligned at 5m/s and it will be enough time to clear the room before you get out of range of sentries and it cuts warp time down enough since you already have a direction.


1) warp happens at 75% max speed. Acceleration from 0m/s is at its fastest and slows down the closer u get to 100%. So other than facing the right direction(which u do with mwd also) and traveling at 5m/s literally cuts ur warp down from 50s or whatever it is for carriers down to 48.

I dont know for sure mwd is the way to go but enough people who know what their talking about(not me) have proposed it that its probably worth using for that 11s warp out time when a neut lands in local.

2) hitting a frig with heavy neut will cap it out and it will give u the ability to warp out even if u have to wait till the end of the destabs cycle. Neuts are used on carriers for this purpose. Again maybe its worth the module slot or maybe carriers die to interdictors or cynoed fleets with 20 points. So maybe a neut protecting against one frig pointing u isnt worth the module slot. That kind of meta game module fitting i cant comment on. I just know the neut works on one frig

Im not a carrier....or anything....pilot yet. But the fact that u recomend 5m/s as align solution or thats neuts dont stop a destab, and therefore dispute mwd, neuts as even having a legit purpose on a carriers shows ur even less useful then me. So let the 2 of us sit back and wait for some real carrier pilots to find this thread and share their experience with the op
Cecil Montague
PCG Enterprises
#25 - 2013-07-23 17:39:43 UTC
Ciyrine wrote:


1) warp happens at 75% max speed. Acceleration from 0m/s is at its fastest and slows down the closer u get to 100%. So other than facing the right direction(which u do with mwd also) and traveling at 5m/s literally cuts ur warp down from 50s or whatever it is for carriers down to 48.


Honestly I have three carriers and I've never tried this. The biggest problem I can see is how fast you accelerate with a MWD on. If it finishes a cycle and due to the carriers mass you've only accelerated to 20% of you non-MWD top speed then you really aren't getting much out of a mod that hurts your cap which is the lifeblood of a carrier.

Ciyrine wrote:


2) hitting a frig with heavy neut will cap it out and it will give u the ability to warp out even if u have to wait till the end of the destabs cycle. Neuts are used on carriers for this purpose. Again maybe its worth the module slot or maybe carriers die to interdictors or cynoed fleets with 20 points. So maybe a neut protecting against one frig pointing u isnt worth the module slot. That kind of meta game module fitting i cant comment on. I just know the neut works on one frig


The problem here is you have to get lucky for one neut to work. Lets say you nuke the frigs cap in a single cycle but his disruptor still has a few seconds left on it. Until the disruptor cycles its effects continue and you can't warp. Now a frigs cap will bounce back very quickly after getting wiped out so that 5 seconds it takes for their disruptor to cycle will probably be enough time for their cap to recover enough to cover the cost of the next cycle of the disruptor so it stays on without a break.

You can increase your chances by using a large in conjunction with a smaller faster cycling nuet but tbh why bother when you can sick 15 disposable ECM drones on him and be gone.

"There is no such thing as an effective segment of Totality" - Bruce Lee: The only man with a Chuck Norris killmail.
Tsukino Stareine
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#26 - 2013-07-23 18:10:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Tsukino Stareine
Ciyrine wrote:
Tsukino Stareine wrote:
When you cap something out the module isn't instantly shut off, it finishes it's cycle before shutting down.

As for aligned vs sentries

you don't have to align at max speed, set yourself aligned at 5m/s and it will be enough time to clear the room before you get out of range of sentries and it cuts warp time down enough since you already have a direction.


1) warp happens at 75% max speed. Acceleration from 0m/s is at its fastest and slows down the closer u get to 100%. So other than facing the right direction(which u do with mwd also) and traveling at 5m/s literally cuts ur warp down from 50s or whatever it is for carriers down to 48.

I dont know for sure mwd is the way to go but enough people who know what their talking about(not me) have proposed it that its probably worth using for that 11s warp out time when a neut lands in local.

2) hitting a frig with heavy neut will cap it out and it will give u the ability to warp out even if u have to wait till the end of the destabs cycle. Neuts are used on carriers for this purpose. Again maybe its worth the module slot or maybe carriers die to interdictors or cynoed fleets with 20 points. So maybe a neut protecting against one frig pointing u isnt worth the module slot. That kind of meta game module fitting i cant comment on. I just know the neut works on one frig

Im not a carrier....or anything....pilot yet. But the fact that u recomend 5m/s as align solution or thats neuts dont stop a destab, and therefore dispute mwd, neuts as even having a legit purpose on a carriers shows ur even less useful then me. So let the 2 of us sit back and wait for some real carrier pilots to find this thread and share their experience with the op



You're not an anything pilot yet, stop trying to sound superior. You are very clueless in a lot of aspects of this game still.

Alignment takes into account your direction as well, it doesn't matter if you're at 75% speed you have to be FACING THE RIGHT DIRECTION to warp, pre-aligning even at 5m/s will save you time because your direction is already established on the server.

Facing the right direction with the MWD on makes it take longer if you weren't already as the MWD adds mass and in turn affects your inertia modifier.

Also who on earth told you it takes 50 seconds for a carrier to align, that's some complete bull right there.

As the previous poster already explained it in more detail I won't go into any more but one heavy neut ain't going to do jack **** to anything if all they need to run is a point.

You're a giant noob, start being more humble or people are going to be less inclined to help you than they already are.

Art of Explosions
War Kitten
Panda McLegion
#27 - 2013-07-23 18:59:19 UTC
Tsukino Stareine wrote:


Alignment takes into account your direction as well, it doesn't matter if you're at 75% speed you have to be FACING THE RIGHT DIRECTION to warp, pre-aligning even at 5m/s will save you time because your direction is already established on the server.

Facing the right direction with the MWD on makes it take longer if you weren't already as the MWD adds mass and in turn affects your inertia modifier.


Not entirely correct.

Facing has nothing to do with alignment. Facing is purely a graphical thing for displaying pretty spaceship pixels.

Your ship is a point with a velocity vector and no facing. Pre-aligning at 5m/s will make sure you are *travelling* in the right direction, and save whatever little time it takes to accelerate from 0 to 5 m/s.

As long as a ship is at a dead stop, 0 m/s, it will warp in any direction equally quickly.

I don't judge people by their race, religion, color, size, age, gender, or ethnicity. I judge them by their grammar, spelling, syntax, punctuation, clarity of expression, and logical consistency.
Ciyrine
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#28 - 2013-07-23 19:24:20 UTC
Cecil Montague wrote:
Ciyrine wrote:


1) warp happens at 75% max speed. Acceleration from 0m/s is at its fastest and slows down the closer u get to 100%. So other than facing the right direction(which u do with mwd also) and traveling at 5m/s literally cuts ur warp down from 50s or whatever it is for carriers down to 48.


Honestly I have three carriers and I've never tried this. The biggest problem I can see is how fast you accelerate with a MWD on. If it finishes a cycle and due to the carriers mass you've only accelerated to 20% of you non-MWD top speed then you really aren't getting much out of a mod that hurts your cap which is the lifeblood of a carrier.

Ciyrine wrote:


2) hitting a frig with heavy neut will cap it out and it will give u the ability to warp out even if u have to wait till the end of the destabs cycle. Neuts are used on carriers for this purpose. Again maybe its worth the module slot or maybe carriers die to interdictors or cynoed fleets with 20 points. So maybe a neut protecting against one frig pointing u isnt worth the module slot. That kind of meta game module fitting i cant comment on. I just know the neut works on one frig


The problem here is you have to get lucky for one neut to work. Lets say you nuke the frigs cap in a single cycle but his disruptor still has a few seconds left on it. Until the disruptor cycles its effects continue and you can't warp. Now a frigs cap will bounce back very quickly after getting wiped out so that 5 seconds it takes for their disruptor to cycle will probably be enough time for their cap to recover enough to cover the cost of the next cycle of the disruptor so it stays on without a break.

You can increase your chances by using a large in conjunction with a smaller faster cycling nuet but tbh why bother when you can sick 15 disposable ECM drones on him and be gone.


The people that recomended the mwd say that u accelerate regular first for 1-3 sec cant remember. Then cycle the mwd and ur gone. If u cycle the mwd first then finish accelerating normal it will take longer.

I like the ecm idea too. Whats that like close to 47% chance of breaking lock per cycle?

You could do both too. Depends how safe u want to be.
Ciyrine
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#29 - 2013-07-23 19:41:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Ciyrine
Tsukino Stareine wrote:


You're not an anything pilot yet, stop trying to sound superior. You are very clueless in a lot of aspects of this game still.

Alignment takes into account your direction as well, it doesn't matter if you're at 75% speed you have to be FACING THE RIGHT DIRECTION to warp, pre-aligning even at 5m/s will save you time because your direction is already established on the server.

Facing the right direction with the MWD on makes it take longer if you weren't already as the MWD adds mass and in turn affects your inertia modifier.

Also who on earth told you it takes 50 seconds for a carrier to align, that's some complete bull right there.

As the previous poster already explained it in more detail I won't go into any more but one heavy neut ain't going to do jack **** to anything if all they need to run is a point.

You're a giant noob, start being more humble or people are going to be less inclined to help you than they already are.


Haha. I know im a newb and make sure everyone knows i am anytime i speak. There are some very knowledgeable vets out there but u are not one of them. Ive only seen 2 types of responses from u. Useless ones that dont contribute anything or half correct which is even worse because wrong info is worse than no info lest a player go chasing a tactic that doesnt work.

If u think neuts, mwd have no place on a ratting carrier then go on with ur bad self for sure ur not a carrier pilot. For the op i told what i know. That mwd = quick warp in case a neut enters. And carrier pilots use neuts and smartbombs. That info coming from actual carrier pilots. I then preface that by saying i dont know all the nuances of how valuable neuts and smartbombs are.

Does a neut give u a 30% chance of capping a frig and wapring off? Maybe u cap them so their prop mods turn off then u melt him almost instantly with drones who couldnt catchup/track the target before. And the frig cant run its tank being reduced to possibly only running the point.

What about the smartbomb? Whats the increase in survival of that module? Im less confident of that modules effectiveness but some people out there are running them.

War kitten explained why 5m/s doesnt make a difference. A stationary carrier will warp off just as fast minus the .5s u might save thanks to already having some acceleration. U wont understand because in ur 4 yrs of playing or however long uve pretty much hit the wall in how advanced ur understanding of the game is going to get. Keep on trucking :)
Tsukino Stareine
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#30 - 2013-07-23 20:15:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Tsukino Stareine
Oh please this is good :), link me to a post where I've given half-correct info where I haven't acknowledged it and apologised for it. I'm sure there are many since you're so confident about it.

Not all carrier pilots know what they're doing, you will be one of those when you eventually get yourself one.

A neut doesn't have a 30% of capping out a frigate and letting you warp away, the ONLY way that would ever happen is if you managed to cap them out JUST before their point cycle ended. You've got a 20% chance of doing that since a point has a 5 second cycle time and if you fail you have to wait at least 24 seconds before the next attempt. That 20% is further lowered because the frigate might regenerate that 4-19 cap needed to keep the point up the same server tick as when you neut.

The single smartbomb is not as useful as a drone control unit in terms of keeping frigates off you, an extra hobgoblin or Heavy ECM drone is much better.

If you think direction doesn't matter when aligning, try aligning in one direction and then warping in the other, I can guarantee you it will take longer than from standstill or aligned at 5m/s in the right direction.

I have no idea where you pulled 4 years from, I've only been playing eve for just over a year and I will be the first to admit I have a ton of things I can still learn. However I learn in a way that doesn't take the first thing someone says at face value and I challenge something before I "learn" it. You think just because someone flies a carrier means they are good at it and copying them and taking everything they say as 100% fact will be a good path to take.

First of all let me say this: ratting in a carrier is POINTLESS. Carriers used for combat are essentially giant sentry boats with 0 damage bonuses to them, they are slow, have terrible locking speeds (almost 15 seconds for a battleship) and barely make more per tick compared (often not more) to your usual subcap choices because you spend so much time warping to and from sites and locking things.

Additionally: have you considered the logistics behind ratting safely in a carrier? Most people do it with a cyno jammer and have a POS/station they can be safe in. This cannot be done in npc space so you have to rent from an alliance and get permission from them to jam the system. Also cyno jammers do not affect covert ops so you can still be hotdropped by bombers, recons and T3s.

Did you know any of this ;)?


EDIT: and to all your "anti tackle" methods are so useless because a single ship is not going to tackle a carrier without backup. If you get tackled in a carrier with no support 99% of the time you are boned.

Art of Explosions
Ciyrine
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#31 - 2013-07-23 21:51:51 UTC
I dont have to go far to find a post where ur wrong. This here topic u dont understand that a ship facing away from ur warp object moving at 0m/s will warp out just as fast as a ship facing its warp point moving at 0m/s

Its once u start moving at any speed. Like ur recommended 5m/s that facing matter.

Ill leave the viability of neuts for actual carrier pilots to comment on

Carrier ratting is the premier form of ratting in terms of isk/hr. If u think they suffer from warping around belts u might consider mwd ive heard they lower the warpout to 11sec or so. People do in fact rat in carriers and make scary amounts of isk. I dont know what the richest eve players in the game do(trade, manufacture) or how much they make but i do know the carrier ratting is the most lucrative isk/hr ive heard concrete #s for and i can see a path to get there. How the guy who won eve cornered the market i dont see a path yet.
xPredat0rz
Project.Nova
The Initiative.
#32 - 2013-07-24 01:27:29 UTC
Ok after seeing some of the great "thoughts" posted here:


1. Ewar drones are your friends if you are ever tackled by a frigate. At which point you are not warping out but jumping to a safe beacon in a system you already have an alt in to ensure its safe.

2. Light Ewar drones are the only ones that will catch said frigate.

3. Smart bombs are for killing interdiction probes. Since it takes 3 blasts to kill one chances are you will be pointed as well. Light drones(Warriors) are now your friends as you need to kill/force off the tackle while killing the bubble.

4. Ratting in carriers is ******** when you can make similar isk doing it in a ishtar for 1/10th the price.
Sentry Carrier puts out like 1800 dps and an ishtar puts out about 1k. Takes the ishtar 3 hours to pay off the hull. Takes the carrier 3 days to do it.
Ginger Barbarella
#33 - 2013-07-24 01:58:41 UTC
xPredat0rz wrote:
Ok after seeing some of the great "thoughts" posted here:


1. Ewar drones are your friends if you are ever tackled by a frigate. At which point you are not warping out but jumping to a safe beacon in a system you already have an alt in to ensure its safe.

2. Light Ewar drones are the only ones that will catch said frigate.

3. Smart bombs are for killing interdiction probes. Since it takes 3 blasts to kill one chances are you will be pointed as well. Light drones(Warriors) are now your friends as you need to kill/force off the tackle while killing the bubble.

4. Ratting in carriers is ******** when you can make similar isk doing it in a ishtar for 1/10th the price.
Sentry Carrier puts out like 1800 dps and an ishtar puts out about 1k. Takes the ishtar 3 hours to pay off the hull. Takes the carrier 3 days to do it.


Don't argue with noobs who have never flown something and try to speak with authority on it. You'll lose to the stupidity every time. Cool

"Blow it all on Quafe and strippers." --- Sorlac
Paikis
Vapour Holdings
#34 - 2013-07-24 02:46:35 UTC
So much hurf blurf here.

Tsukino, go learn warp mechanics. You don't appear to understand them yet.
Ciyrine, you have all the right modules, for all the wrong reasons.
RavenPaine
RaVeN Alliance
#35 - 2013-07-24 03:22:39 UTC
Not sure if anyone has mentioned the most basic stuff to you.

Sort your drones out! You might have 200 drones in the bay, Itemize them all in easy to read catagories.

Keep extra cyno ships fitted and stored in your ship bay. Kill your own cyno guy if it helps keep your ops covert, and drop him another ship.

Jump Drive Cal V is worth it.

Carrier V is also worth it.

I hate to say it, but if you're going to rat in it, fit a cloak.

Tsukino Stareine
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#36 - 2013-07-24 03:37:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Tsukino Stareine
Paikis wrote:
So much hurf blurf here.

Tsukino, go learn warp mechanics. You don't appear to understand them yet.
Ciyrine, you have all the right modules, for all the wrong reasons.


I know how warping works thanks ;) point out to me where I'm wrong.

Ciyrine wrote:
I dont have to go far to find a post where ur wrong. This here topic u dont understand that a ship facing away from ur warp object moving at 0m/s will warp out just as fast as a ship facing its warp point moving at 0m/s


I never said anything about 0m/s

I said 5m/s in the direction you want to warp to

At 0m/s the server considers you to have no direction and therefore warping from standstill is the same time in any direction. When you align yourself to anything, even at 5m/s you eliminate the part of the align time where your ship has to face the correct direction.

Stop being such a giant noob/troll.

Art of Explosions
Paikis
Vapour Holdings
#37 - 2013-07-24 05:05:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Paikis
Tsukino Stareine wrote:
I know how warping works thanks ;) point out to me where I'm wrong.


Right here.

Tsukino Stareine wrote:
When you align yourself to anything, even at 5m/s you eliminate the part of the align time where your ship has to face the correct direction.


The time to align yourself in the correct direction, from 0m/s, is 0 seconds. Your ship's graphic is completely cosmetic when it comes to warping. The second you hit the warp or align button, you are pointed in the right direction. If you are stopped, the time it takes you to get into warp is exactly how long it takes you to get to 75% speed.

So by aligning at 5m/s you have saved the time it takes to accelerate to 5m/s and nothing more. You also may have inconvenienced yourself by having to scoop and re-deploy drones that you're slow-boating away from. Also you may get yourself killed by slow-boating towards something that you're going to get stuck on (if for some reason you're in a belt or anom with lots of clutter)
Frank Pannon
Emerald Swine Escavations
#38 - 2013-07-24 07:13:07 UTC
Uppsy Daisy wrote:
Try everything out on the test server. Like putting cynos at the right positions so you dont bump off stations.


I would do this too, check how much tank you actually have, how the ship handles, try bumping off things, to check how long align takes. Basically you can play around without consequences, and with help of some friends test the worst case scenarios.
Evanga
DoctorOzz
Domain Research and Mining Inst.
#39 - 2013-07-24 07:52:54 UTC
Frank Pannon wrote:
Uppsy Daisy wrote:
Try everything out on the test server. Like putting cynos at the right positions so you dont bump off stations.


I would do this too, check how much tank you actually have, how the ship handles, try bumping off things, to check how long align takes. Basically you can play around without consequences, and with help of some friends test the worst case scenarios.


and find out about the stations with a big and no docking ring at all.
Also, try on sisi to undock from kick out stations and see when you undocked you are already 3-5 km out of docking ring. That's how many people lose their carriers in low sec :P

Dotlan will be your friend regarding jump routes, make yourself also aware of the systems you should avoid. Check eve kill for the systems the route shows you regarding kills.
Tsukino Stareine
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#40 - 2013-07-24 14:05:05 UTC
Paikis wrote:
Tsukino Stareine wrote:
I know how warping works thanks ;) point out to me where I'm wrong.


Right here.

Tsukino Stareine wrote:
When you align yourself to anything, even at 5m/s you eliminate the part of the align time where your ship has to face the correct direction.


The time to align yourself in the correct direction, from 0m/s, is 0 seconds. Your ship's graphic is completely cosmetic when it comes to warping. The second you hit the warp or align button, you are pointed in the right direction. If you are stopped, the time it takes you to get into warp is exactly how long it takes you to get to 75% speed.

So by aligning at 5m/s you have saved the time it takes to accelerate to 5m/s and nothing more. You also may have inconvenienced yourself by having to scoop and re-deploy drones that you're slow-boating away from. Also you may get yourself killed by slow-boating towards something that you're going to get stuck on (if for some reason you're in a belt or anom with lots of clutter)


Now that's interesting.

So how does one explain the inability to warp when you are at velocity but not facing the correct vector?

Art of Explosions