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New dev blog: Starbase happy fun time

First post First post
Author
sukee tsayah
Northern Crux LLC
Virtue of Selfishness
#961 - 2011-11-09 22:59:15 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
mkint wrote:
Aaaaand, no response to the assertions that this is a nerf to small groups, and a buff to Grayscale friends.

I don't understand how this nerfs them. Could you explain please?


https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=324859#post324859
Lucid Phoenix
Infidel Armaments
B.S.I.
#962 - 2011-11-09 22:59:25 UTC
Jenn Makanen wrote:
Lucid Phoenix wrote:
I think modifying the faction towers to use the same fuel as normal towers is ridicilous. The whole point of investing in one of the faction towers is reduced fuel costs, so it will pay for itself.

Now I understand that in trying to simplify the game, and making the fuel costs more simplistic, I get that. However a bigger fuel bay, isn't going to do it in so far as a fair trade off.

What I propose is this, and incremental increase in the powergrid/cpu output for the tier 1/tier 2 towers, thereby retaining some of the 'fuel savings', and allowing the simplization of the fuel situation at the same time.

Please give this idea serious thought, as it would only be fair to reap some ACTUAL benefit to faction towers people paid their hard earned isk for.

Thank you

Lucid Phoenix

Infidel Armaments



Learn to read. It's already changed.



Sorry, forgot the patch was already out
bornaa
GRiD.
#963 - 2011-11-09 23:00:09 UTC
Sassums wrote:
There still has been no response on the issue of faction towers no longer dropping.

If we are fixing and working on the POS system, why not fix this issue as well.



Please... can we get response on this?
Whats with dropping of faction tower BPCs???
is that going to be implemented again or not?????
[Yes, I'm an Amateur](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hRa-69uBmIw&feature=relmfu)
vaspucci
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#964 - 2011-11-09 23:20:51 UTC
Instead of shortening the onlining times, why not implement an onlining queue. The problem with the current system is that you have to stay at the POS to online each successive mod. If you could quickly anchor them, then queue them to to come online it would:

1) Eliminate the need to camp at a POS for a week setting it up
2) Not create a situation where it's possible to quickly online new mods when an attacking fleet shows up.

And it's not like you guys don't have code to handle queuing stuff.
True Sight
Deep Freeze Industries
#965 - 2011-11-10 00:43:11 UTC
Callic Veratar wrote:
Could the Rorqual's compression system be allowed to manufacture fuel cubes?


That, is an awesome request.
Xander Hunt
#966 - 2011-11-10 00:46:06 UTC
I spoke with one of my corp mates as to why the change even is HAPPENING. I can somewhat now understand that for a huge corp/alliance this COULD save time to fuel the many POS's, but, in the same stroke, also seems that there are a few additional steps which, arguably, can be skipped depending if you want to pay attention to the balance on cost vs time.

Even though I'm more in the know than I was an hour ago about why this is being done, the thing I REALLY don't like is the fact that we have to use a BPO to manufacture cubes. We have structures in PI that we feed materials to it, and it spits out the resulting item based on the two input materials. So why can't we do something similar for the cubes?

The mechanic would work in such a way that there'd be enough room in a bay to feed the structure enough mats to produce whatever cube we configure it for. It then takes the mats and hourly will take the appropriate chunk of raw mats and make X number of cubes per hour. In high sec, there would be a "tax" of sorts or something like that. In low/null, no tax, 100% efficiency, etc.

Where the mechanic would work would either be at a POS or on a planet, or both.

At a POS, you'd get two bays. One for the input items (All 8 mats needed to make the cube) and then another where the cubes get sent out. From there, it'd be a manual process to take the items from the new structure to the towers fuel bay.

The PI option would work where you'd have to feed the structure via landing pad. The inputs would be the same, and taxes would apply again.

Thoughts?
Raven Kahn
Crocuta Clan
#967 - 2011-11-10 01:11:41 UTC
can you make the cyno generators work the same as the jump bridges please.

Thanks,
RK
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#968 - 2011-11-10 01:54:03 UTC
sukee tsayah wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
mkint wrote:
Aaaaand, no response to the assertions that this is a nerf to small groups, and a buff to Grayscale friends.

I don't understand how this nerfs them. Could you explain please?


https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=324859#post324859


Leaving the POCO aside, you believe the demand for PI products will drop due to reduced demand and that will hurt new players as PI is an easy for of income to get into, correct?

If I may ask, is it not possible that the simplification of fuel management could lead to more people having towers and the increased demand keeping prices up?
Is there a reason PI mats wouldn't be bought by people producing fuel?
Is the difference in fuel consumption enough to severely reduce demand for the PI goods?
True Sight
Deep Freeze Industries
#969 - 2011-11-10 02:00:48 UTC
Xander Hunt wrote:
I spoke with one of my corp mates as to why the change even is HAPPENING. I can somewhat now understand that for a huge corp/alliance this COULD save time to fuel the many POS's, but, in the same stroke, also seems that there are a few additional steps which, arguably, can be skipped depending if you want to pay attention to the balance on cost vs time.

Even though I'm more in the know than I was an hour ago about why this is being done, the thing I REALLY don't like is the fact that we have to use a BPO to manufacture cubes. We have structures in PI that we feed materials to it, and it spits out the resulting item based on the two input materials. So why can't we do something similar for the cubes?

The mechanic would work in such a way that there'd be enough room in a bay to feed the structure enough mats to produce whatever cube we configure it for. It then takes the mats and hourly will take the appropriate chunk of raw mats and make X number of cubes per hour. In high sec, there would be a "tax" of sorts or something like that. In low/null, no tax, 100% efficiency, etc.

Where the mechanic would work would either be at a POS or on a planet, or both.

At a POS, you'd get two bays. One for the input items (All 8 mats needed to make the cube) and then another where the cubes get sent out. From there, it'd be a manual process to take the items from the new structure to the towers fuel bay.

The PI option would work where you'd have to feed the structure via landing pad. The inputs would be the same, and taxes would apply again.

Thoughts?


From the perspective of someone who has seen both sides of the coin, I can say that these changes (including the revisions) are extremely positive ones.

Whilst a few people have jumped in to point out that technically, this change actually makes things even 'more' complex is true, it does make life easier and more fun, I'll give two examples

Running 20 towers
When it came to refueling them, I loaded up our special corporation website which keeps track of all our towers, including their PG/CPU usage, I would then ping the API to get the current fuel volumes in our first 4 towers nearby and now know how much of every fuel type I need in order to top them all up to maximum.

I then sit there and copy these over from our fuel reserves until my Rorqual/Anshar is full, then head off to the towers.

When I get to the towers, I have to re-go through the math and copy the correct amounts of each fuel type into each of the towers.

with the new system...
I open the corp hanger, drop a ton of pellets into my hanger, undock and go fuel towers.

For the long term organisation, we just ensure we keep a steady production of pellets going and everything is great.
Patri Andari
Thukker Tribe Antiquities Importer
#970 - 2011-11-10 02:06:40 UTC
Time for the original Northern Coalition to return. Those guys were good for business.

These new guys may be good at pvp, but they fail at making the trains run on time. MOAR CARE BEAR PLEASE!



Be careful what you think, for your thoughts become your words. Be careful what you say, for your words become your actions. Be careful what you do, for your actions become your character. And character is everything. - author unknown

sukee tsayah
Northern Crux LLC
Virtue of Selfishness
#971 - 2011-11-10 02:41:03 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
sukee tsayah wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
mkint wrote:
Aaaaand, no response to the assertions that this is a nerf to small groups, and a buff to Grayscale friends.

I don't understand how this nerfs them. Could you explain please?


https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=324859#post324859


Leaving the POCO aside, you believe the demand for PI products will drop due to reduced demand and that will hurt new players as PI is an easy for of income to get into, correct?

If I may ask, is it not possible that the simplification of fuel management could lead to more people having towers and the increased demand keeping prices up?
Is there a reason PI mats wouldn't be bought by people producing fuel?
Is the difference in fuel consumption enough to severely reduce demand for the PI goods?


I'm glad you asked these questions.

It's unwise and inconsistent to leave POCO aside, because what I'm talking about is an overall trend of nerfing PI, which hurts small corps and new players, to the benefit of the big corps and old players. That's the overall theme of all this.

Aside from that, if you want to separate the two, then yes, the artificially reduced demand for PI fuel will hurt new players, because as you said, PI is an easy source of income to get into when you're new to the game.

You asked if it's possible that the simplification of fuel management could lead to more people having towers, which would increase demand. The answer is yes, of course it's possible, but that's only an indirect possibility. The artificially reduced demand for PI fuel on the other hand, is not. That is a direct consequence of the change.

PI mats would of course continue to be bought by people producing fuel, but at a lower rate than they are right now due to the artificially induced decreased demand for the fuel.

Lastly, you asked if the fuel consumption is enough to severely reduce the demand. First of all, that's not the point. Either you artificially change supply/demand or you don't. By which rate is only of secondary importance. Demand will be reduced not because players are reacting to supply/demand, but because CCP is telling them they no longer need as much fuel as they did before.
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University
Ivy League
#972 - 2011-11-10 02:44:32 UTC
True Sight wrote:

From the perspective of someone who has seen both sides of the coin, I can say that these changes (including the revisions) are extremely positive ones.

Whilst a few people have jumped in to point out that technically, this change actually makes things even 'more' complex is true, it does make life easier and more fun, I'll give two examples

Running 20 towers
When it came to refueling them, I loaded up our special corporation website which keeps track of all our towers, including their PG/CPU usage, I would then ping the API to get the current fuel volumes in our first 4 towers nearby and now know how much of every fuel type I need in order to top them all up to maximum.

I then sit there and copy these over from our fuel reserves until my Rorqual/Anshar is full, then head off to the towers.

When I get to the towers, I have to re-go through the math and copy the correct amounts of each fuel type into each of the towers.

with the new system...
I open the corp hanger, drop a ton of pellets into my hanger, undock and go fuel towers.

For the long term organisation, we just ensure we keep a steady production of pellets going and everything is great.


Even for 2+ towers, this suddenly makes logistics a lot easier.

And I think most of us would prefer smaller, more dense, fuel pellets over larger fuel bays in the towers. Even if it allows some magical compression/decompression to the tune of 20-30%. That would really make the change a win-win in all directions in exchange for doing manufacture time. Maybe make them only return 90-95% of the inputs when re-processed, even with perfect skills and the proper reprocessing plant, to balance out the smaller cube size.
Dwarfageddon
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#973 - 2011-11-10 03:31:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Dwarfageddon
Has anyone even noticed the initial numbers per a block and the fact that it uses 4 of those an HOUR!!?
The following is use-age numbers for large towers based on the original posted figures per a block.

The fuel increase is exponentially higher per a pos:
----This for a 30 day run cycle for one POS.. ----

(Assumes no sov and no sov bonuses)


432,000 Heavy water
432,000 Liquid Ozone
1,152,000 Isotopes
57,600 Oxygen
23040 Coolant
11,520 Enriched Uranium
11,520 Mechanical Parts
2880 Robotics

---------------------------------------------------------------

(Following assumes you are like some/most Eve POS owners who have far too many to actually mine/make all this crap.)
Current estimated prices for this one month bucket of fuel to power the new CCP built Porche (Caldari) Cayenne SUV:

Heavy Water 10,800,000
Liquid Ozone 159,408,000
Heavy Water 10,800,000
Robotics 204,4800,000
Nitrogen Isotopes, 622,080,000
Coolant 163,584,000
Mechanical Parts 92,160,000
Enriched Uranium 132,250,000
(Oxygen cost is deprecated due to it being easy to obtain)

Congratulations, you are now the proud owner of a SUV with rich leather interior, still has that new POS smell and gets a whole .000000001 miles per a gallon, it goes REALLY fast though! O.K. now some serious bits here that dont involve hurling sharp pointy objects and four letter invective laced hate mails at the people who are making the changes I know you guys get plenty of that already.

My .2 isk on this change is this:

This will wipe out or bankrupt a vast swath of pos owners, especially those who operate multiple large towers, basically i would dare say 2/3 of all pos owners would not be able to own them any more. I think i can speak for most of those and say we dont have multiple technetium moons overflowing out of our back pockets to pay for the cost of such a thing, I think even those tech moon guys if they bother to read Dev posts are having some second thoughts about this. This would negatively impact the ice market in the long run as well, less people can afford to buy the fuel so prices may stay high but the stock of ice products on the market would stagnate, less and less motivation for people to mine it.

This fuel change is far from ready to be released and you need to seriously rethink it a lot more. I'll give you a contrast by providing you with the non sov fuel per a month of one of my towers right now.
324000 Nitrogen Isotopes
5760 Coolant
3750 Mechanical Parts
18000 Oxygen
720 Robotics
28800 Liquid Ozone
103000 Heavy Water
2880 Enriched Uranium

I appreciate you guys going back and making some changes to the actual functions of the pos's, its past the point of being overdue, there are many other areas of POS functions that deserve looking into futher that I hope the devs will actually spend time on. I would be happy to elaborate on those but thats a different topic for a different time. CCP needs to seriously re-think the # of blocks per hour used and dial back the amount of fuel each "Pellet" uses because this is ludicrous and unsustainable for anyone that doesn't own a bot net of 0.0 ratting accounts. Most eve players that lived in null know who I refer to.
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University
Ivy League
#974 - 2011-11-10 03:36:30 UTC
Dwarfageddon wrote:
Has anyone even noticed the initial numbers per a block and the fact that it uses 4 of those an HOUR!!?
The following is use-age numbers for large towers based on the original posted figures per a block.

(followed by lots of stuff)


I suggest, politely but firmly, that you go back and read the devblog again. Overall, small towers will see 10-25% fuel savings per month, medium towers in the 5-10% range and large towers about 4-8% (assuming that fuel prices stay roughly level).

In addition, the new blocks are about 9% smaller then the source materials.
sukee tsayah
Northern Crux LLC
Virtue of Selfishness
#975 - 2011-11-10 03:48:06 UTC
Scrapyard Bob wrote:
Dwarfageddon wrote:
Has anyone even noticed the initial numbers per a block and the fact that it uses 4 of those an HOUR!!?
The following is use-age numbers for large towers based on the original posted figures per a block.

(followed by lots of stuff)


I suggest, politely but firmly, that you go back and read the devblog again. Overall, small towers will see 10-25% fuel savings per month, medium towers in the 5-10% range and large towers about 4-8% (assuming that fuel prices stay roughly level).

In addition, the new blocks are about 9% smaller then the source materials.



Hence the reason new players and small corps who base their living out of PI are getting nerfed. Thanks for the numbers.
Creat Posudol
German Oldies
#976 - 2011-11-10 03:53:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Creat Posudol
Dwarfageddon wrote:
Lots of numbers, making basically no sense


Have to agree with Scrapyard Bob. Just re-read the blog. Whatever you think is happening isn't happening. Most likely you can't read like all the other people who thought that towers would be about 4x as expensive to fuel as they are now. If that's what you're saying. Is it? If not, what are you saying?

What ever you are trying to say, you seem to think it's gonna be more expensive for some reason. It isn't. It will be mostly unchanged, slightly cheaper even. Please try the reading thing again Roll

EDIT: I tried to figure out what you did to come up with those numbers, I basically have no clue. The correct amount of coolant is 5760, not 23040. The actual number of Enriched Uranium is 2880, not 11520 (you multiplied by 4 here). I didn't check every other number you gave, but one or two more at least are also multiplied by 4.
Again: Reread the dev blog! The given amount is for a batch of four, meaning you get 4 blocks, meaning that's the fuel for 1 hour for a standard/large tower, meaning you multiply those by 720 (24*30) to get your 30 day usage.

(I thought at first you had somehow multiplied by 10 for Coolant, but just read the oxygen number on the previous line, so all seem to be x4 now, which is consistent with the batch size oversight)

sukee tsayah wrote:
Hence the reason new players and small corps who base their living out of PI are getting nerfed. Thanks for the numbers.

The numbers are utter nonsense and fiction. Basically the usage of towers in terms of raw materials stays mostly the same. Unless you don't use PG/CPU at all, then it's slightly up, but even then not by much.
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University
Ivy League
#977 - 2011-11-10 04:06:26 UTC
sukee tsayah wrote:
[quote=Scrapyard Bob]
Hence the reason new players and small corps who base their living out of PI are getting nerfed. Thanks for the numbers.


This is not the POCO whine thread.

And this change will help small corps, because now small towers suddenly got a lot cheaper to operate. Which means you can put more of your PI materials on the market rather then spending it on your own POS fuels.

(Complaining about the rise & fall of commodities in EVE is rather pointless. Look at ice prices, or mineral prices, or any other building component which tends to rise and fall based on demand or speculation. If it becomes less profitable to harvest a particular PI good, switch to a different market segment.)
sukee tsayah
Northern Crux LLC
Virtue of Selfishness
#978 - 2011-11-10 05:40:12 UTC
Scrapyard Bob wrote:
sukee tsayah wrote:
[quote=Scrapyard Bob]
Hence the reason new players and small corps who base their living out of PI are getting nerfed. Thanks for the numbers.


This is not the POCO whine thread.

And this change will help small corps, because now small towers suddenly got a lot cheaper to operate. Which means you can put more of your PI materials on the market rather then spending it on your own POS fuels.

(Complaining about the rise & fall of commodities in EVE is rather pointless. Look at ice prices, or mineral prices, or any other building component which tends to rise and fall based on demand or speculation. If it becomes less profitable to harvest a particular PI good, switch to a different market segment.)


Since you're not in a small corp I would suggest you refrain from assuming what will or will not help us.

Natural fluctuation in demand and speculation is fine. Artificially decreasing demand of one material to the benefit of big corps at the detriment of small corps is not fine. Since you're in a large corp, I'm sure you're fine with the change. Want me to go away? Tough.
Lord Timelord
The Killer Cockatoos
#979 - 2011-11-10 06:06:54 UTC
True Sight wrote:
Callic Veratar wrote:
Could the Rorqual's compression system be allowed to manufacture fuel cubes?


That, is an awesome request.


Agreed! Either the above idea and/or the possibilty to also Compress Fuel Cubes themselves for some good Blockade Running Re-Supply Runs! Blink
Usurpine
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#980 - 2011-11-10 06:22:13 UTC
I havent read all thread here, just looking into it.

I have spent billions in faction towers to reduce the fuel consumption. WtF i dont understand why people are exciting about the news here, i can only see you nerfed faction towers badly.

As an industrialist i need my slots for building, so now i have to build fuel blocks ? How is that helping me ?
I had no problems at all with fueling towers and i have a lot of towers.

I need to dig into numbers more but i have a bad feeling that this patch will cost me a lot of isk per month more.

I am quite disappointed. There is so much said how to improve towers, so why you dont stick on that ?