Warfare & Tactics

no

If by Passive you mean shield relay thingamagigs no.

If by passive you mean Buffer tanking, yes.

Generally getting a good tank to be able to deal with a player blasting you takes too many slots.

You may find you will die before a buffer with less slots used does, or where a ASB/active setup would.

Out side the rattlesnake, i wouldnt consider a passive regen setup on anything.

then how am I supposed to survice long enough to kill the other guy?

All the other times I surive long enough to attack the enemy they just regenerate their shields/armour while I'm still trying to engage them.

And if passive tanking is not worth it in pvp? why have it at all.

Im surprised you quoted my post and then asked a question that i have already addressed in that very post.

Why do you expect passive recharge tanking to be good for pvp?

Passive recharge tanking was born in lvl 4 missions, where you have a long steady fight and only one goal - to kill the rats. This is no problem while you have the slots to do it.

In pvp, you will encounter: Tackling, speed, cap warefare, EW, dps from all types of weapons and doing all sorts of resistant type damage.

So right from the start you will need two mid slots used up for propulsion and a warp disruptor, then optionally web, energy neuts/vamps while fitting a tank.

A good burst tank or a flat out maximum number of hitpoints is what you should be aiming for, and obviously doing as much dps as possible!

Buffer = lots of hit points and good resistances
Active tank = good resistance and a repping module ASB, shield booster, armor repair + rigs to boost their effectivness/resistances
Burst tank = average to low resistances, generally not cap stable, large fast repair amount

In each case you have ehp, effective hit points. You compare what you are capable of in each case and decide what works best. If a buffer tank has 100k ehp and your burst tank only has 30k but can repair 100k hit points worth of damage in 2 minutes, you have to decide if you would rather have the hit points to start with, or gamble with the active burst tank - which the fitting allows for it to do more damage.

certain ships lean towards one of these types of tanks, for ease here are some examples:
Abandon = lots of armor plating and general resistance mods
myrmidon = active tank
Cyclone = very high burst tank
Drake = can have a buffer or active shields, most lean toward buffer.

you can then tweak your fitting to your fighting style and never forget that dead things do no damage to you, so try and get as much dps from your ship as possible without wasting slots (dont fit more than 3 damage mods for example)

My brother made a monster drake who had a passive regen of730 .. however he lives in a pulsar c3 and only does a piddly 180 damage.

It's kinda funny, not one person solo has been able too kill him because of it and has never been able too kill them xD

I think people are being a bit dismissive a bit too quickly.

There used to be a passive shield myrmidon that was a beastly tank - not sure if it still works with changes but worth a look.
Also if you know an opponents damage type, there's probably a lot of situations where you could change to a passive resists fit to help you win. I'd imagine a well fit passive drake could be setup to beat a deimos for example with this (and neuts/nos).

In general though yeah some active elements of tank are almost always better than passive resists.

I'll try to be a good samaritan here and help.


It depends.

Passive shield tanking would be somewhat ok for pure 1v1s. As long as you are SURE that your hp per second gain (factored with your resistances) is higher than your opponent's damage per second you can last almost indefinitely as the tank itself draws very little capacitor power.
The problem with pure passive tanking though is that this style cuts down your available capacitor power (both in regeneration and capacity) and requires a fair amount of slots to gain any appreciable amount of hp/sec... gimping your ship overall.

Active tanking has some similarities to passive tanking... except pure (and proper) active tanking is extremely capacitor intensive and favors raw hp/sec over "efficiency." This leaves active tanking particularly susceptible to energy neutralizers and "endurance" battles.
In addition; active tanks tend to not have much "buffer" (see: raw HP) making them very vulnerable to high volley strikes (ex. artillery platforms).

Both passive and active style also have one other weakness in common; against an opponent (or multiple) whose DPS is above your ability to repair... you go down VERY quickly.


Buffer tanks are where you just load up resistances and raw HP. Nothing else matters besides getting a large amount of EHP (Effective Hit Points).
The benefits of this tanking style are that; it tends to be the least taxing on your capacitor power compared to other tanking styles, it has resistance to high volley strikes, and will often outlast an active tank when there is lots of incoming DPS (as your opponents have to chew through all your HP rather than just overcome hp/sec).

Finally... there is a fourth "unofficial" method of tanking; "Speed Tanking."
It'd take too long to explain in full detail (as I'd have to explain missile and turret tracking mechanics) but I'll give you the gist of it; it's the act of flying so fast relative to your target that their weapons can't track and/or apply damage very well. This style is the only one that can effectively be used in conjunction with the other, more well known, tanking styles.


Now... before I go any further... understand something; there is no all-round BEST tank. Each of these styles have their advantages and disadvantages. The trick is to use the right tanking style for the right scenario. In PvP... this means you must manipulate and maneuver around certain situations and opportunities to get the most out of your tank.

Some examples:
- A dual-tanked Breecher or Incursus can regenerate a large amount of hp/sec. Combined with their small size and decent DPS numbers, this makes them deadly in a close range brawl.
However... because they are active-tanked they have little in the way of raw hp. A single volley from an artillery Thrasher or Wolf will be able to blast right through any potential reps and prematurely end the active tankers.

- With some very good skills (and liberal application of powergrid enhancement rigs) a Tristan can fit a 400mm armor plate and beef itself up to about 7000+ EHP. This is well above what most other frigates can get (average is around 3000 to 4000).
With this amount of EHP you can't be "one-shotted" by Thrashers and Wolfs anymore... neuts don't bother you too much... and you can last longer against concentrated fire than if you were relying on hp regeneration.
However, because you can't repair any damage you do incur (shields being the exception) you will often find yourself docking up and repairing after each fight.


"High" DPS at the frigate level is somewhere in the range of 100 to 200+

Repping 45 to 50 DPS would be okay as long as it is not your primary means of defense (hint: use speed and range).



Now... with regards to that Caracal you lost...

- HAMs are not particularly good against small targets. Frigates especially. Think of them as short range anti-destroyer, anti-cruiser+ weapons. Rapid Light Missile Launchers are far more effective at taking out frigates. Heavy Missile Launchers can be used in a pinch too if you want extra range and added "punch" (at the cost of anti-frigate effectiveness).

- Micro Auxiliary Power cores may have served you well at the frigate level... but they aren't terribly effective at the Cruiser level (they give a "set" PG boost which is a drop in the bucket for a cruiser). You want to be looking at Power Diagnostics and Reactor Controls (they give up a percentage of CPU for a larger percentage of PG).
Don't be too hard on yourself over this one. I did the same thing when I was new.

- your overall fit isn't too bad outside of what I have pointed out above. Personally though... I'd focus more on squeezing out as much speed as possible on that cruiser (there are other cruisers that are MUCH better at brawling).

- (expanding from the last point) If you run solo, you'll be doing a lot of "running" fights and you want to try and avoid being pinned down for any appreciable amount of time. Identify any ships that are known as "close range" fighters as they will most likely be equipped with a scram (which is no bueno for you).

- This is a "process" game. Don't take your losses or lack of "improvement" personally. Some things will come faster than others. Approach each situation that went wrong as your fault and work back from there ("Did I engage the wrong target?" "Was I expecting that situation?" "Was I fitted properly for that situation?").

- This is a multi-player game. Who your friends and allies are and how many you have often counts a lot more than personal wealth and power.

For frigate pvp buffer shield tank (one mse/shield extender rigs) is perfectly viable, but if you go overboard you'll die to folks who have more balanced fits.