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Sleepers and the Wormhole storyline

Author
Cowgeneral
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1 - 2013-07-19 03:19:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Cowgeneral
If you post any information concerning the lore, please provide a link or a direct reference to what you are referring to!

For the past few months I've been reading up into the lore of the Sleepers and Wormholes and what the developers, particularly CCP Dropbear have had to say about the entire thing. Interesting as it is, the huge following that was so prevalent in the Old Forums seems to have died away quietly and not resurfaced. Additionally with Dropbear leaving CCP nothing 'appears' to be pushing the envelope so to speak with the backstory for W-Space.

The Arek'Jaalan Initiative, the Wormhole Flower, Loci, the etymology of 'Oruze' and 'Osobynak', Talocan structures with Sleeper drones in W-Space, Isogen-5 and the Seyllin Incident, the several (forgive me) rather confusing and cryptic chronicles written by Dropbear and other GMs/Devs, Jove and Sansha's Nation, and more all point fingers and hint away at certain pieces of information but with little information behind them.

For instance, Project_Atlas has an astoundingly detailed page on the Loci of wormholes, but to what end and purpose. Yes they managed to document and map wormhole space, a tremendous feat no doubt, but what's the point? When I say this I don't mean to diminish the work of the Initiative, it just doesn't seem to have a bearing on the storyline and leave crucial questions unsolved. Project Atlas ends with a disjointed theory on whether the Loci is a map to quasars in the Terran sky.

So Project Atlas was a success within its stated goal: "Create a navigable space-time map of Anoikis." Yet the information that seems to be important pertaining to the Wormhole storyline at large, seems to be untouched. We don't really know the point of Loci or what they mean.

The same can be said for the Talocan and Sleeper theories, a lot of ideas have been thrown around but with no conclusive evidence. A quote from Dropbear:

Quote:
Think about that. It may not make sense at first. The complexity of the Sleeper's story runs so deeply that it may take some time to understand. Some time indeed, but you should think about it all the same, if you ever want to understand. The pieces of this puzzle are scattered across a wide area, and a stretch of time unlike any event in EVE has seen before. If you think anyone forgot about developing this storyline, if you think the "silence" right now is indicative of apathy or disregard at our end, then you're (quite understandably) assuming that all of this is being done on the traditional timescale - but that is not the case. All of this - all of it - is unfolding in real time, and it will take either a genius or a collective effort to make sense of the whole from the fragments that remain. We are watching and waiting for the day to come when the capsuleers will move this particular storyline forward. We are still waiting.


As much interest that garners, its rather cryptic and uninformative, and understandably so according to Dropbear. But again there is no context, no frame of reference for the 'fragments' he states. Personally, and I hope no offense is given, it seems just like an excuse to make players fanwank and act as if they know something the others do not. There is evidence enough of that in the threads on the Old Forums.

For instance, let us say we knew the nature of the Talocan and Sleepers and the apparent tragedy that befell them, what then? According to Dropbear in that same thread, this:

Quote:
It's not totally analogous, since what we're dealing with here is somewhat less ambitious and more experimental, and it doesn't influence any central game mechanics either. At its heart, this is just a story that wants some friends.


Meaning what? Dropbear appears to be the CCP equivalent of Bethesda's Michael Kirkbride, someone able to craft an incredible story within a story, laden with subtext and meaning and then ultimately fails to tie it off in a satisfying manner. What I'm talking about is the 36 Sermons of Vivec, 'CHIM' and 'Amanrath', etc... It's the Morrowind equivalent to the Sleeper lore, something powerful, interesting and pervasive throughout the entire game but ultimately doesn't seem to matter. Also Kirkbride is insane.

So what I am asking all of you is just a few questions that don't seem to have been established or set up in the beginning, I'm saying this with a grain of salt as there have been a plethora of threads on the Old Forums concerning this topic and it is completely conceivable that I have missed something. Anyway, it just seems like the Wormhole storyline has lacked a certain direction or ultimate point other than 'being'.

---

There is also the question of certain matters taken Out-Of-Character that are explained away In-Character, most obvious of which is Capsules which is in the game narrative is a path to immortality while OOCly it is just our way of respawning. However as it goes on certain matters get harder to justify and things can't readily be explained away without raising some eyebrows. Eg. CONCORD's overpowered weapon systems as being some sort of gift to them by the Jove for controlling Capsuleers (Correct me if I'm wrong) as an explanation of why CONCORD can kill players so easily once they transgress. I wonder how much of that sort of space magic is tying together the Wormhole storyline, for instance the Wormholes appearing and disappearing OOCly within their own security-space (high,low, null) as a way of randomizing entrances to W-space and making the W-Space experience more dynamic. ICly this is rather difficult to explain and I have yet to see a satisfactory explanation.

Continued in next post also with list of questions posed by W-space.
Cowgeneral
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#2 - 2013-07-19 03:19:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Cowgeneral
Let me continue by saying I am not maliciously criticizing the work done by players or developers in creating the Apocrypha expansion, the entire lore for W-Space seems to have collected dust and slowed to a stop after Dropbear leaving.

These are some questions brought about by Wormhole Space, Sleepers, and the other events seemingly tied together with them. These are not directed to Devs as a 'Gimme', simply rhetorical questions that I find curious.

1. If a connection between Sleepers and Talocan is discovered, what impact does that have in the story at large?

2. Is there a difference between Sleepers and Talocan or are they the same race that had created divisions among themselves like Capsuleers and mainstream humans?

3. Are Jove biologically related to the Sleepers, perhaps is the Jovian Disease the same sort of Infomorphic disease that affected them?

4. Does the etymology behind 'Oruze' and 'Osobynk' really matter, and if it does what role does it have to play in the story at large?

5. How do all four races tie into the W-Space mythos?

6. Do the COSMOS missions concerning the Ancient Races have a part to play in the overall epic, or are they simply a way to get interesting modules?

7. If the storyline is moved forward for W-Space, how large of an impact would it have in terms of game content and the k-space lore.

8. Why is Isogen-5 tied in with Wormholes and the Shattered planets seemingly to a miniscule degree? Does it have to do with Sleepers and (from what I hear) Talocan and Terran ships only having armor and no shields?

9. How did the Sleepers get into W-Space seemingly before the EVE-Gate opened? Does it have anything to do with the term Anoikis?

10. Is the number of W-Space systems (2499) relevant? Are the Loci relevant whatsoever?

11. What happened to the Awakened Infomorph?

12. What is going on with Arek'Jaalan currently?

13. Why are only some Sleeper/Talocan sites given unique 'Warp-In' descriptions while others simply have repeats?

14. Does Terra have any part to play in the W-Space story?

15. How did Sansha Kuvakei harness the power of Wormholes? Is he in Jove space? If he is, how did he come to be there?

16. Will Jove space ever be opened?

17. Do the Blood Raiders, Guristas, or Angel Cartel have any stake in W-Space?

18. Are there connections between Rogue Drones and Sleepers?

19. Does Roleplaying and asking questions in Local-Chat actually garner the attention of GMs/Devs or is it simply a shot in the dark?

20. Does living in higher tier wormhole systems increase the chance for 'irregular' sites that don't usually occur? For instance, the Quarantine.

Obviously there are more questions I have which, given the amount of material, I cannot remember all of it. I will be sure to post more critiques and questions here in the future.
---

To the GMs and Devs I ask directly, do you still have plans for wormhole space or is it something on hold since the departure of Dropbear? And when I ask if you have plans, Dropbear had 'plans' but they never seem to have been implemented, what I mean is in the realm of the next few years. I don't think that's asking a lot.

I am living in a C2 wormhole with my Corporation and I have to say that the in-game lore is some of the best I have read, hence these posts. I have made this out of hopes to see that the Wormhole story is continued and misconceptions brought about by time are put to rest.
Cowgeneral
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#3 - 2013-07-19 03:19:35 UTC
Reserved.
Velarra
#4 - 2013-07-19 19:32:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Velarra
I think the answer (unfortunately) to a number of your questions comes down to: "Because of Iteration", which is then intended to be "soon" if not "18 months".

Additionally, to appreciate things a bit further it's a not unlike taking 5 separate jigsaw puzzles, each with pictures of different dragons flying around a fantastical picturesque scene in the sky. Next you mix up the pieces and throw them randomly into separate boxes. You only keep 1 box, toss out and recycle the other 4. The trick is you slice each puzzle up into easily a thousand or more different pieces that share similar colors and hint at similar images.

Then you sell it telling customers its the most complex puzzle ever! More will be revealed at an undetermined future point in time!

At that point you can proceed to move onto your next product line of toys and games.
Cowgeneral
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#5 - 2013-07-19 21:28:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Cowgeneral
That's a shame because it seems like a lot of the story inevitably ties into the Sleepers and W-Space and it seems they would be throwing so much away by not continuing it. I think your description is apt because, roughly four years down the line, nothing new has come to light and CCP doesn't seem to be keen on picking up on it anymore.

I vaguely remember something about 'blue loot thresholds' in which once enough of those were turned into Empire space NPCs 'something' would occur. This could've been my imagining or me taking it from a post that was just hearsay and rumor, but I think that's the closest i've come to a solid piece of context in which to place some of the mysteries of W-Space.

It's kind of like if we were to figure out some of the more esoteric information such as the meaning of Oruze and Osobnyk, nature of the Sleepers, whatever. So what? Knowing that turning in blue loot will make something happen is far more concrete and appreciable than questionable reward for finding out where the carrot and stick goes.

If storyline is your thing, I'm sure this sort of searching appeals to you, but over four years or more? I think there's a point where people stop really caring, EG. Old Forums and player interest in 2010/2011 versus now. Selfish as it sounds, I believe players are looking for something that will open up new gameplay and content opportunities, IE. Jove Space, etc...

Perhaps I'm being too harsh, after all this is something that is supposed to be occurring in real time. But even so, after looking at a large amount of information about W-Space, it seems like figuring out any of the aforementioned mysteries of W-Space just seems like a fool's errand.
Velarra
#6 - 2013-07-20 04:25:54 UTC
Cowgeneral wrote:
after looking at a large amount of information about W-Space, it seems like figuring out any of the aforementioned mysteries of W-Space just seems like a fool's errand.


Pretty much. It's an issue of relying on people's deep desire to organize stuff into meaningful forms. Even if that stuff is not wholly formed or planned out. You let people's imaginations run wild. Let them imagine what 'may' be the whole picture, fill in the blanks.

Player created content, fill in the blanks! Tell your own story! The only problem is the experience gets a bit empty when you realize there's nothing there. Worse, it's not just WH space that's full of suggestive yet incomplete lore masquerading as mystery & archaeology.
Nakami Saans
Perkone
Caldari State
#7 - 2013-07-20 18:05:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Nakami Saans
Velarra wrote:


Player created content, fill in the blanks! Tell your own story! The only problem is the experience gets a bit empty when you realize there's nothing there. Worse, it's not just WH space that's full of suggestive yet incomplete lore masquerading as mystery & archaeology.



Maybe that's the point Velarra. Maybe CCP is looking for players to assemble as much of the puzzle together then waiting for us to come up with theories that align with their long term plan before they give us another piece of the puzzle to confirm part of the theory to make it official cannon and then lay out another set of mysteries to solve and theorize about. While I could just be grasping at straws, I find it kind of exciting to think along those lines.

Edit: I'm kind of wondering if Dust 514 will play into the lore in this way. Imagine being able to explore Talocan military outpost or an ancient Jove science station. If it does i will be sad because I don't have a PS3.

People: "You shouldn't burn bridges." Me: "I don't, I bomb them from orbit."

Cowgeneral
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#8 - 2013-07-20 21:12:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Cowgeneral
But what is the puzzle? Finding out new information about W-Space does what exactly? When the framework and context of the big picture is in question and then you're told to fill in the blanks, that's pretty flaky. How again are we supposed to prove our findings are true about the Sleepers?

Nakami, you say its a puzzle but its a lot like the puzzle that Velarra described, from several different ones with all the rest never revealed. Velarra put it perfectly, Player-Created-Content is an empty shell because nothing is there. Sure something that the community finds and puts together about one aspect or another is so readily agreed upon that the Devs comply and add it but its never exactly the way you wanted it. It becomes a disappointment because everyone has an opinion about how it 'should have been.' That sort of thinking is inevitable but when you invite fanon and fan fiction into the mix it amplifies it because now people are more invested than if they were just being told a story.

In my opinion, fan-fiction and the toleration of it inevitably dilutes an established canon and is bad for the health of the game/story overall. And then once you start getting into alternate timelines and rewrites - that's the proverbial chair being kicked out from under you. EG. Star Wars.

Being told a story, that's my point. People want to be engaged and have their suspension of disbelief. Being told an ambiguous and vague sort of 'framework' is not the way to do that. So ask yourself, what really 'is' the puzzle trying to be found out? The nature of the Sleepers and what generated the wormholes? If you find that out you're no better off than the rest of us, from what can be gleaned so far its simply that the Sleepers and Talocan were a hyper-advanced civilization that 'somehow' got into W-Space before/after(?) the EVE Gate and a great disease took one or both of the societies. Wormholes have a direct link with Isogen-5, Jamyl Sarum's superweapon, and Sansha's Nation has found out a way to emulate it.

What I want is emergent gameplay, not just having more breadcrumbs pushed towards the players every so often. Being able to engage (or RP if you will) with NPCs in a manner that's not like missions where you're told a pre-written script and then do X. Or not even that, maybe little things like new rare complexes/items dropped now and again letting people know that there is more out there in W-Space than a pre-set group of complexes. Maybe there are and players who found them just haven't shared.

To me it seems like CCP just left an equivalent of an empty painting frame in a dark room full of objects and then ushering a bunch of people in there telling them to find it and draw what other objects they find. The catch is though what each player expects to find differs from person to person and then players opinions start taking acting as people begin to argue and debate, with mixed results. Meanwhile CCP leaves through the back door.
Nakami Saans
Perkone
Caldari State
#9 - 2013-07-20 22:19:17 UTC
I can see where you are coming from Cowgeneral. I want to know the origins as much as you do. I haven't lived in New Eden in a while and the last time I was here for an extended period of time I lived in Nullsec wondering when the next big war was going to hit and my mining career was going to be put on the back burner. I've since moved into highsec again running lvl 4 security missions for ISK but this last time i've come back I realized that the rich and mysterious history of this universe kept drawing me in. The past few days I have been desperately trying to learn as much as I can from the current and archived forums about what we have learned and you're right it hasn't been a whole lot but we have been learning bit by bit.

That "breadcrumb" approach is what brought me back. I'm currently looking into joining an lore exploration corp so maybe on the off chance I do find the next small piece to the ongoing puzzle. Maybe I see it differently or am just naive, idk, but I kind of like the idea of it taking a few more years to learn a few answers to the many questions we have about the ancient races. Chances are the more answers we get the more questions we will have but it's the same with real life when it comes to our own ancient civilizations.

Again this breadcrumb approach is frustrating but I think it serves a purpose. The EVE universe is for the most part player driven and shaped. The economy, lowsec player pirate gangs, and the nullsec alliances. All of it is shaped by us. The devs laid down the "framework" for this game and then handed it over to us and said "Have fun!" I agree the history behind the ancient races have been laid down in a similar fashion but it goes along with the theme of EVE. I still have alot to learn since I've only been researching for a few days but I've already been forming my own theories about the Sleepers/Talocan connection.

While I have no proof I believe the devs wanted it this way to give people like us something to talk about and strive for. I guess what I'm trying to say is when it comes to this subject is when you know everything it becomes boring. I'm hoping with the Odyssey expansion they are gearing up to answer some of our questions in the near future but I will be expecting more questions to answer :-P

People: "You shouldn't burn bridges." Me: "I don't, I bomb them from orbit."

Velarra
#10 - 2013-07-21 00:02:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Velarra
Nakami Saans wrote:
I guess what I'm trying to say is when it comes to this subject is when you know everything it becomes boring.


Yet there is little boring about say, the works of Tolkien or any other completed academically large, complex and fictitious setting, regardless of whether it's set in a fantasy environment, Sci-fi environment or any other type of setting. The issue with sleepers and (so much of eve's lore), however is that it's not complete. Much of it is random, like the data for planets if you take a look at their attributes.

To be fair however the planet data is forgivable because it's just faux realism randomly generated and i've never seen it suggested that it's intended to be "real" or coherent. Heck, much of Eve's physics are completely nonsensical in the interest of game mechanics over realism. Which is again, forgivable and understood to be tied to 'it's just a game'. Issues with the planets might be overlooked in light of eve's early history and the difficulties associated with creating 2500 or so solar systems.

Meanwhile if you look to WH space, if you note that it's been implied to be an actual 'real' mystery, something fantastic that can be solved, yet eventually realize you're being strung along? That it's just a collection of incomplete ideas and themes, that can be iterated on later (if there ever is a later)? When you're aware that other huge yet intricately complete fictional settings do exist, when you give credit to the idea that a collective of 'brave', 'fearless' developers created a niche sci-fi mmo game most wrote off early...I don't see how it's a far leap to want to believe they really did create a huge sleeper mystery to be unraveled.

Yet at this point? Everything eventually just points to faux realism. Ambiance. Setting. Make up the story as you go along and have fun. So? Look, If i go to a toy store and buy a jigsaw puzzle, i expect all the pieces for that puzzle in the box. I enjoy the challenge, from start to end when i see the full picture. I probably buy another puzzle from the same developer/designer. When i want to buy some lego blocks to build a rifter or create a completely new never-seen-before spaceship? I know that all i'm doing is buying some lego bricks i can play around with. In both cases you end up with a happy customer who returns for more.

When you tell a customer one thing about your product, but the eventual reality that emerges when the marketing and hype for the product has passed is different? Customer learns to expect 'communication errors...' from the PR dept. for all future products released from the same source.

In closure i suppose there's room for trollish responses here, - obviously i've not looked at the situation close enough. I've not lived in WH's 23/7 since their release. Or, i'm not patient enough for a mystery that involves RL time frames for the story to unfold fully. One might even suggest my light-bulb isn't bright enough to put all the pieces together! Which would be fine by me really.

But at this point? How long has the incomplete WH 'mystery' been going on without any progress by any player? Personally I'm calling the whole notion of any mystery another incomplete expansion feature. That might get iterated on in the future.

Besides, CCP has limited resources, Dust 514 to develop, a theoretical vampire MMO to develop and release at some point in the distant imaginary future. Who cares about an incomplete feature that was part of an expansion back in 2008/2009?
Tykari
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#11 - 2013-07-21 00:59:52 UTC
There are indeed a ton of things CCP can do with the storyline of wormholes. Unfortunately developing stories has always been a long term thing for CCP in a lot of these matters. The first time we found out about the Talocan, Sleepers and other Ancient races was with the beginning of COSMOS in the 2005 expansions. It took 4 years till Apocrypha for the story on Sleepers and Talocan to be expanded to what it is now.

It's never easy to keep up with advancing a big storyline that spans eons and several factions and all that they encompass. Even the current Live Events, while amazing and awesome are only a small fraction of all the things that should be happening all over New Eden. It's even more difficult to have those changes accurately reflected in the game as that takes time and developing resources to implement. Look at the CONCORD HQ station in Yulai, the names of now dead NPC's storywise and how they are affiliated with corporations as a few examples. The event of Caldari Prime was another where they needed to make in game changes. In a lot of cases it's not anywhere near as easy as simply pushing a button.

There is also the problem of finding out the truth. And in that I don't mean so much us the players but our characters. There are a lot of things we have already learned about the Sleepers, and a few things we've learned about the Talocan as well. Some of which most of us figured out beforehand, other things we were miles away from. Problem is that most of those revelations have only happened story wise in such a way that only a very select few of lore characters know about it and the rest of New Eden is still in the dark.

When Gallente President Roden revealed that first-gen DUST soldiers are carrying Sleeper implants that are causing them to go, he neglected to mention that it was because they came from actual people who were essentially still alive but in a cryostasis dream state living inside a VR world.

The Sleepers are a subfaction of Jove who separated from the main Empire and went into hiding, ensuring nobody could follow them. If the Jove got them out of their cryostasis and they became one Empire again, their dwindling population number would suddenly skyrocket. Imagine what effect that could have on the cluster.

The Sleepers and Talocan have already had a huge impact on the Empires in terms of new technologies and discoveries. A lot of new modules and ships and so on, were only created because of what was learned from w-space. But again nobody is any of the wiser about it because it's being kept secret or passed off as new inventions.

The micro jumpdrive is credited to Xarasier, a Duvolle scientist who didn't invent it at all. Instead he got his friend, an other scientist, to take a drug found in w-space that enhanced his intelligence so much, he found a way to minimize a jumpdrive and improve it. It also fried his brain and Xarasier took of with the invention claiming it as his own. That same chronicle that tells us this, also gives us info on the Talocan, it just confirms something most people have suspected for ages so not really anything new.

And for me personally, that is the biggest problem with how some of these storyline themes and revelations are being handled. It happens in secret, in dark corners and also, outside of the game. It's given to us in chronicles and other sources. And while again the chronicles are fantastically written and a joy to read, I feel that they should be used to flesh out parts of the EVE universe that are impossible to explore in game. Things that happen on planets, or in stations. The daily life of people living on planets. The operation of military organisations. Because those are things we can't experience in the game. Of course, sometimes they don't really have any other choice and something needs to be revealed like this but they can do both.

A very good example of doing it right in my book is the Caldari Prime event. We had the actual event in game, in which players could participate and have an impact (queue people complaining about it being scripted) while several Chronicles fleshed out the event from a perspective we as players can never have. There were things that happened in the background we as players couldn't be aware off, but eventually became known, through in game events and also effected those events in later stages.

This also gives me hope and faith that CCP will try to do it more like this, and expand upon it, trying to improve on it and do a lot more of it.

In this dark void we are like brilliant stars, holding within us both the creative and destructive power to bring a new dawn upon worlds or plunge them into eternal darkness.

Nakami Saans
Perkone
Caldari State
#12 - 2013-07-21 01:02:20 UTC
Valerra you make very good points. I guess since I've been playing EVE on and off from 2006 i'm used to the real life slow moving storyline :-P

As far as the trolling statements thing, never going to happen from me. I enjoy a good debate without the name calling lol Everybody has a different opinion and I respect that. I always listen to a different viewpoint and offer my own in the off chance I can persuade someone but I'm not going to scream.

I will tell you that I am personally excited to see them eventually flesh the old races out even if it takes another year or two. ^.^

People: "You shouldn't burn bridges." Me: "I don't, I bomb them from orbit."

Nakami Saans
Perkone
Caldari State
#13 - 2013-07-21 01:08:31 UTC
Tykari can you point me in the direction to read all this? I've made it my main objective to become as familiar with the EVE lore as possible especially when it concerns the older races.

People: "You shouldn't burn bridges." Me: "I don't, I bomb them from orbit."

Tykari
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#14 - 2013-07-21 01:19:10 UTC
Nakami Saans wrote:
Tykari can you point me in the direction to read all this? I've made it my main objective to become as familiar with the EVE lore as possible especially when it concerns the older races.


Well I suggest you read everything on the Evelopedia related to Arek'Jaalan. There is a lot of player created things in there as well but it also holds sources so on.

http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Arek%27Jaalan

The EVE Chronicles portal. Look for the Inferno chronicle for the Talocan tidbits, and 514 for some discussion on Sleepers and DUST soldiers. There are other chronicles dealing with the Sleepers and w-space (End of the world) and how we got there but don't know them all by heart.

http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Portal:EVE_Chronicles

Reading the Templar One book will also give you more info on some of these things.

Read descriptions of the in game items gotten from w-space. Visit it yourself and read the info windows when warping to sites and so on.

In this dark void we are like brilliant stars, holding within us both the creative and destructive power to bring a new dawn upon worlds or plunge them into eternal darkness.

Nakami Saans
Perkone
Caldari State
#15 - 2013-07-21 01:22:00 UTC
Tykari wrote:


Read descriptions of the in game items gotten from w-space. Visit it yourself and read the info windows when warping to sites and so on.


Oh I def intend on doing that Twisted

People: "You shouldn't burn bridges." Me: "I don't, I bomb them from orbit."

Velarra
#16 - 2013-07-21 02:10:08 UTC
Tykari wrote:
A very good example of doing it right in my book is the Caldari Prime event. We had the actual event in game, in which players could participate and have an impact (queue people complaining about it being scripted) while several Chronicles fleshed out the event from a perspective we as players can never have. There were things that happened in the background we as players couldn't be aware off, but eventually became known, through in game events and also effected those events in later stages.

This also gives me hope and faith that CCP will try to do it more like this, and expand upon it, trying to improve on it and do a lot more of it.


The issue with scripting of course was another case of problematic messaging. Tell people they can watch a story unfold? Witness a change (yet not impact things) and there'd be a lot less crying.

I mean it worked fantastically for the semi-offline news reporting & youtube videos that heralded the Empyrean Age patch. Even the Apocrypha launch marketing. These were awesome because there wasn't any mixed messaging. Customers knew without doubt this was an eve event they could watch & understood they could not change.

Yet the caldari event was more than a little laced with imperfect messaging. Messaging that suggested and hinted at: 'You can change the course of events, have an impact on the direction things will flow'. Which is fine, but when confronted with various on grid and off grid experiences, information accidentally released that more than slightly foreshadowed a scripted plot? Well... Is it really a surprise that customers were taken aback?
Nakami Saans
Perkone
Caldari State
#17 - 2013-07-21 04:32:57 UTC
Hey Tykari, has anybody asked if the Talocan, Sleepers, and Jove are all related? With all the information I've read i the past few days including today that seems to be the most logical conclusion I can come up with. Nobody has seen the two missing motherships after the Jove established their empire in what is now Jove space and I don't believe they were turned into giant factories as is another theory that's in the EVElopedia guide. The entry on the motherships suggest that each mothership was upgraded in a different way and that two of them left Jove space for parts unknown. We already know of the Sleeper connection but what if when the original Jove split up into the three separate groups to try and find a different way to cure their disease? I'm not sure if this theory has ever come up because it would take me days to sift through the archived forums but I was reading through all the Arek'Jaalan files and found no mention of this theory. It would explain the mix of Sleeper and Talocan tech plus the reason why the Talocan would quarantine some of their research outposts while sleeper drones guarded them. In the early days of the third jove empire they actually left people who were showing signs of the disease behind. It would also explain the Talocans migratory nature and why both the Sleepers and Talocan are found in both the Empire areas and W-space. The Jove we know of today might have stayed behind to guide and study us for the possible cure, while the Talocans used their advanced knowledge of warp and jumpdrive technology to search the galaxy for a cure and the Sleepers to use their VR to endlessly tinker with a virtual copy of their genetic code without the danger of further damaging their own DNA advancing their condition. Anyway that's just my thoughts at this late hour. Let me know what you think, and anybody else is more that welcome to chime in here lol

People: "You shouldn't burn bridges." Me: "I don't, I bomb them from orbit."

Synthetic Cultist
Church of The Crimson Saviour
#18 - 2013-07-21 08:38:06 UTC
Tykari wrote:
The Sleepers are a subfaction of Jove who separated from the main Empire and went into hiding, ensuring nobody could follow them. If the Jove got them out of their cryostasis and they became one Empire again, their dwindling population number would suddenly skyrocket. Imagine what effect that could have on the cluster.


This connection between Sleepers and Jove, was never visible in any way ingame. Instead, it was revealed in one of the books. Came more or less right out of nowhere. Don't remember any mention of the Talocan at all in the book.


The "Project Compass" which charted the positions of the wormhole systems, using in-game observable things, was later shown to be completely wrong, by a CCP dev post stating that the locus signatures related to the entries in modern-day astronomical lists of quasars. Making any geographical information you can see ingame, completely wrong. Ingame stuff says all the wormhole systems are ~1300 light years away. Dev says it's actually millions.


So, these two things, demonstrate that information ingame does not really allow the players to make any connections or conclusions about the "Wormhole storyline".

It's like being given a jigsaw puzzle, when the solution is to put the box on your head and walk away.

Synthia 1, Empress of Kaztropol.

It is Written.

Tykari
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#19 - 2013-07-21 12:05:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Tykari
Synthetic Cultist wrote:


This connection between Sleepers and Jove, was never visible in any way ingame. Instead, it was revealed in one of the books. Came more or less right out of nowhere. Don't remember any mention of the Talocan at all in the book.


The "Project Compass" which charted the positions of the wormhole systems, using in-game observable things, was later shown to be completely wrong, by a CCP dev post stating that the locus signatures related to the entries in modern-day astronomical lists of quasars. Making any geographical information you can see ingame, completely wrong. Ingame stuff says all the wormhole systems are ~1300 light years away. Dev says it's actually millions.


So, these two things, demonstrate that information ingame does not really allow the players to make any connections or conclusions about the "Wormhole storyline".

It's like being given a jigsaw puzzle, when the solution is to put the box on your head and walk away.


You're right that the Sleeper Jove connection wasn't spelled out, but there were hints. Provided both in game and through events done by CCP Dropbear.


  • From the Oruze Osobnyk site.
  • Quote:
    The mysterious structure inside this deadspace pocket offers few clues as to the purpose it once served. Similar compounds -- albeit far less complex than this one -- have been reported, each featuring the same huddled architecture, evocative of the enigmatic Phantom cruiser.

    The Phantom, for those that don't know, is the Jove Cruiser.

  • The discovery of Trinary data in w-space, something only the Jove have been known to use.

  • The Emergent Combat Intelligence Sleeper salvage has this to say.
  • Quote:
    Although emergent systems are not fully-fledged Artificial Intelligences, they are often so advanced that they can border on sentience. The means by which they are created is also a common source for claims that they are in fact, full-blown AIs. Emergent system development is said to have been an early focal point in Jovian software design, where they hoped to create an atmosphere in which an advanced system could self-assemble its own consciousness and thus “emerge” as a sentient being. What became of these projects remains unknown, although the Jovians appear to have abandoned these pursuits many millennia ago in favor of something more tangible and containable.


  • The Jove bloodline descriptions mentioned the Stasis People. People who went into cryostasis voluntary.


All of these things point to a Sleeper Jove connection and people were saying it well before Templar One came out that the Sleepers were a remnant of a previous Jove Empire. We only didn't really know for certain or to what extend they had a connection.

As for Project Compass, yes I'll agree. That was very unfortunate. People spent a lot of effort into it only for it to be shut down by CCP. And as you say, W-space systems are supposedly millions of lightyears away, not only from New Eden but from eachother as well. Which as I said in my previous post, just doesn't make any sense at all. And we have to keep in mind, that players used in-game information they weren't supposed to have to do all this. The POS distance calculation system shouldn't have worked to begin with in w-space. It was basicly an oversight of the CCP devs.

Regardless, I still think they should have handled that situation better.

As for the Talocan yes they are still a big mystery. Templar One completely omits any mention of them. In game items do suggest some interaction between Sleeper and Talocan. There are even suggestions the Talocan did use fullerenes in their tech as well.


  • From the Large Crate of Talocan Station Life-Support Cores
  • Quote:
    These pieces appear to all be some form of polyhedral from truncated pyramids that can be gripped in the hand to barrel-sized fullerene-faceted globes. Each is shaped as if in one complete piece from bluish or steely-gray material, all edges beveled and smoothed. When rapped with a knuckle, the pieces ring like a bell, but the material feels more like ceramic.

    Every item bears a sort of dim, inner glow that pulses irregularly, like a dying light bulb. A tingle like electricity can be felt just above their surfaces, though preliminary examinations have dismissed the presence of any electrical activity. Each piece fits face to face with another piece; when linked correctly, they form series of twisted fractal-like branches.


  • From the Tengu Defensive Amplification node subsystem.
  • Quote:
    When confronted with the challenge of adapting Sleeper designs to produce shield boost amplification systems, Caldari engineers turned to the defense systems used by certain Talocan structures that had also been found in a few ancient ruins. In some rare cases, the shielding systems on Talocan facilities were constructed using a harmony of Sleeper and Talocan designs. The first successful production of a shield boost amplification node drew heavily upon early study of this particular combination.



They mention a harmony of Talocan and Sleeper designs. Either they worked together, or the Sleepers discovered the Talocan and copied some of their advanced tech for use in their own, like the Empires have been doing, or the Talocan discovered the Sleepers same as we did and also reverse engineered their stuff making it look like the designs belong to both races.

In this dark void we are like brilliant stars, holding within us both the creative and destructive power to bring a new dawn upon worlds or plunge them into eternal darkness.

Amann Karris
Doomheim
#20 - 2013-07-21 19:36:58 UTC
Synthetic Cultist wrote:
This connection between Sleepers and Jove, was never visible in any way ingame. Instead, it was revealed in one of the books. Came more or less right out of nowhere. Don't remember any mention of the Talocan at all in the book.

It didn't really come out of nowhere, but the biggest connecting pieces were in the books. There was enough to have a reasonable certainty without there being a smoking gun or huge neon sign.

Quote:
It's like being given a jigsaw puzzle, when the solution is to put the box on your head and walk away.

That's exactly the solution that's intended. "Nothing to see here, move along." It's not the only solution. However, people want nice, tidy answers and the uncertainty of these kinds of puzzles tend to either drive people crazy, or drive them away.

Accept what you can see, make of it what you will, and have patience. When all else fails, bait the devs and hope they bite. ;)
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