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drones are a weapon system
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Vexille Endur
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#1 - 2013-07-19 20:40:14 UTC
I realy think the drone skill is out dated and jt should be changed. Drones are the only weapon system you have to train 1 week to be able to field the max ammount. Before people defend it saying its a secondary weapon system. So are missiles to the amarr and minmatar but it does not force you to train launchers 5 to be able to fit the max launchers. They should drop drones and just replace it with.scout drone operation. And give you the ability to field 5 drones of the bat.
Little Dragon Khamez
Guardians of the Underworld
#2 - 2013-07-19 22:39:04 UTC
I have some sympathies for your argument, but think this would be a case of power creep, unless drones are nerfed at the same time, but that would cause uproar amongst the drone loving community out there.

Dumbing down of Eve Online will result in it's destruction...
Qolde
Comms Black
Pandemic Horde
#3 - 2013-07-19 22:41:14 UTC
i do see the logic in this argument. though they'[d have to make t2 missiles as painful to train for as large guns are. can you imagine THAT flavor of cheese and whine on the forums?

If someone craps in your sandbox: 1. Light it on fire 2. Grab your shovel 3. Throw it back at them.
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#4 - 2013-07-19 22:49:25 UTC
Vexille Endur wrote:
I realy think the drone skill is out dated and jt should be changed. Drones are the only weapon system you have to train 1 week to be able to field the max ammount. Before people defend it saying its a secondary weapon system. So are missiles to the amarr and minmatar but it does not force you to train launchers 5 to be able to fit the max launchers. They should drop drones and just replace it with.scout drone operation. And give you the ability to field 5 drones of the bat.


I see where you're coming from especially after seeing the astrometrics skill get changed .. ideas:-
-keep as but reduce skill train to a few days
-add a secondary bonus too skill say 5% bonus to all drone stats
- or replace with 5% bonus to all drone stats

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Icarus Able
Refuse.Resist
#5 - 2013-07-20 01:47:38 UTC
Maybe its balancing as you dont need any powergrid or CPU to field drones, For example you can try and fit a full rack of the large arties on a thrasher but you dont have the powergrid for it at low skills
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#6 - 2013-07-20 02:03:07 UTC
Icarus Able wrote:
Maybe its balancing as you dont need any powergrid or CPU to field drones, For example you can try and fit a full rack of the large arties on a thrasher but you dont have the powergrid for it at low skills

This line of thought can be continued into DPS numbers... as each drone you can deploy fields increased DPS... which makes up for the lack of "rapid fire" skills that turrets and missile systems both have but drones don't.**

**Note: if I recall correctly, the DEVs had trouble finding a way to introduce such a mechanic as drones are part of the "legacy code" (they are scared of it and must wash themselves in holy water each time they muck around in it). This is why the Drone Damage Amplifier only increases a drone's raw damage rather than make them fire faster (they literally couldn't figure out how).

How did you Veterans start?
Kitty Bear
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#7 - 2013-07-20 02:32:24 UTC
drones are a much needed secondary weapon system on larger ships

a large turret salvo can 1 shot a moving frigate at 100km+
a large turret salvo cannot hit a moving frigate at 1km
the drones that a battleship fields are vital at very short ranges

cruise missiles cannot 1 shot a moving target at any range
drones are equally vital on missile based battleships



yes drones are destructible, whilst launchers & turrets require the ship they are attached to be destroyed
but as already mentioned, drones require no cpu, no power grid to function
sentry drones like ships have scaling dps vs range
light & medium drones are fast(ish) and have an excellent damage profile

where drones need attention is the disparity between racial lines
no one uses amarrian drones for a reason
Omega Flames
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#8 - 2013-07-20 05:10:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Omega Flames
Vexille Endur wrote:
I realy think the drone skill is out dated and jt should be changed. Drones are the only weapon system you have to train 1 week to be able to field the max ammount. Before people defend it saying its a secondary weapon system. So are missiles to the amarr and minmatar but it does not force you to train launchers 5 to be able to fit the max launchers. They should drop drones and just replace it with.scout drone operation. And give you the ability to field 5 drones of the bat.

You should read the description of the Weapon upgrades and Advanced weapons upgrades as they do affect how many launchers/turrents you are actually able to use (ie fit to your ship and still have cpu/pg for defense). Requiring all of 1 weeks of training to field the max number is ALOT better than training WU and AWU to 5 to get the best fitting stats.
Ash Katara
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#9 - 2013-07-20 21:26:07 UTC
Not to throw more fuel on this fire but unlike all other weapon systems you can not reload more drones in to your drone bay when they do get blown up like you can reload every other weapon system. So they are much more finite. Imagine not being able to reload your guns or launchers...
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#10 - 2013-07-20 22:43:28 UTC
Ash Katara wrote:
Not to throw more fuel on this fire but unlike all other weapon systems you can not reload more drones in to your drone bay when they do get blown up like you can reload every other weapon system. So they are much more finite. Imagine not being able to reload your guns or launchers...

However they consume no capacitor power from your ship, operate semi-independently from your ship, and, if managed properly, never need to be reloaded.

How did you Veterans start?
Shereza
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#11 - 2013-07-20 23:35:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Shereza
Vexille Endur wrote:
Drones are the only weapon system you have to train 1 week to be able to field the max ammount.


And you'll only field around 22-50-something DPS for that one week.

Vexille Endur wrote:
Before people defend it saying its a secondary weapon system. So are missiles to the amarr and minmatar but it does not force you to train launchers 5 to be able to fit the max launchers.


You don't have to train Drones 5 to fit the maximum number of drones either, just to field them. It has nothing to do with drones being a secondary combat system and everything to do with them being a different combat system.

ShahFluffers wrote:
**Note: if I recall correctly, the DEVs had trouble finding a way to introduce such a mechanic as drones are part of the "legacy code" (they are scared of it and must wash themselves in holy water each time they muck around in it). This is why the Drone Damage Amplifier only increases a drone's raw damage rather than make them fire faster (they literally couldn't figure out how).


I'd sure love to see a post from a developer stating just that because they've already changed drone firing speed once. Drones used to have a two second rate of fire, but a couple years back some folks in CCP had the brilliant idea of doubling their damage and doubling their rate of fire to four seconds resulting in drones that did the same DPS as before but put less load on the server hardware. All things considered I wouldn't have expected them to increase drone rate of fire at all after that change.

Edit:
Ash Katara wrote:
Not to throw more fuel on this fire but unlike all other weapon systems you can not reload more drones in to your drone bay when they do get blown up like you can reload every other weapon system. So they are much more finite. Imagine not being able to reload your guns or launchers...


Actually yes, yes you can. Someone else abandons their drones and you scoop them up into your drone bay. Poof, you now have reloads.
Omega Flames
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#12 - 2013-07-20 23:40:43 UTC
ShahFluffers wrote:
if managed properly, never need to be reloaded.

heh tell that to the missioners who now have to deal with aggro-switching rats now Twisted
DataRunner Touch
Doomheim
#13 - 2013-07-20 23:58:45 UTC
The problem still stands is you claim it only takes a week to train up skills to fully field drones. This is the problem where it all starts to break down. To make drones best as they can be, you must train all these other skills as well for your ship to field drones, not only that but many ships that are dedicated drone carriers tend to take a heavy nerf in their primary weapon systems, and those that don't take said nerf typically don't have the drone bay or drone cap to make fielding drones useful.
Vexille Endur
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#14 - 2013-07-21 00:27:08 UTC
I think it stupid to have to train 1 week to be able to fot your first 5 drones for measly dps. There are far to many weaknesses to drone to make you train 7 days just so you can launch your 5 tech 1 drones. And then you have to spend just as much time training alln the drone supposrt skills.

50 dps for a weeks training is horrible you invest that into gunnery or missiles right and you can double that dps. Heck you could prob have tech 2 guns.

Drones are balanced enough already because they are destructable and you are limited to damage types and due to horrible drone balance thats either thermal or explosive. Yes some ships can carry multiple flights. Drones are still inhibited by the same factorz as turrets. They suffer from delayed initial damage like missiles. And onc they are gone you cannot pull more out of your inventory.
Yes they are automated to a extent.

To the person who said replacing drones mid combat via scooping is acceptable 0/10.

Comparing training wepon upgrades and awu to drones is stupid. They are a overal fitting skill. Yes they make fitting your ships easier but they are not 100 percent needed there are other ways around fitting. You have to train drones to 5 just to be able to start getting the max potential.

All im saying is remove the. Current drone skill replace it with scout drone operation. Qnd make scout and combat drone operation 5 the pre req for tech 2
Vexille Endur
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#15 - 2013-07-21 00:28:28 UTC
DataRunner Touch wrote:
The problem still stands is you claim it only takes a week to train up skills to fully field drones. This is the problem where it all starts to break down. To make drones best as they can be, you must train all these other skills as well for your ship to field drones, not only that but many ships that are dedicated drone carriers tend to take a heavy nerf in their primary weapon systems, and those that don't take said nerf typically don't have the drone bay or drone cap to make fielding drones useful.


My issue is it takes a week just to field 5 drones. I dont care that it takes time to make those drones awsome.
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#16 - 2013-07-21 00:50:52 UTC
Vexille Endur wrote:
DataRunner Touch wrote:
The problem still stands is you claim it only takes a week to train up skills to fully field drones. This is the problem where it all starts to break down. To make drones best as they can be, you must train all these other skills as well for your ship to field drones, not only that but many ships that are dedicated drone carriers tend to take a heavy nerf in their primary weapon systems, and those that don't take said nerf typically don't have the drone bay or drone cap to make fielding drones useful.


My issue is it takes a week just to field 5 drones. I dont care that it takes time to make those drones awsome.

If you look at it compared to other weapon systems it takes 10 days to train T2 small drones, 5 days to T2 small weapons. From that point it takes 10 days to train T2 medium weapons, it takes 0 days to train T2 medium drones.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
DataRunner Touch
Doomheim
#17 - 2013-07-21 00:52:25 UTC
Oh really? You think training time is to long? Is that what you are saying? Well let me put this in here. You claim one week worth of training time will double the DPS, yet for a drones when you train your drones skills up, you can specialize in a certain drone type. Like scout drones doesn't require many of the skills sentry drones have, and vis versa. You can specialize in per scout drones for example then build up their DPS through DPS skill books which is what I said. Of course your responce to this was.

"My issue is it takes a week to just field 5 drones. I don't care that it takes time to make those drones awsome." Yet, lets look a turrets, how long does it take you to get up from small turrets to medium turrets, then medium turrets to large turrets, then large turrets to cap turrets? Unlike drones, while you can specialize in a certain turret level, it still requires certain skills under it that are depending on the class smaller then it.

Drones on the other hand you focus on drone type, then get all the skills that increases that drone's type abilities. When you can field those five drones, you are fielding for all drone types, so of course there will be some training time require sense this skill affects ALL drones and not just one set.
Omega Flames
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#18 - 2013-07-21 00:55:31 UTC
Vexille Endur wrote:
DataRunner Touch wrote:
The problem still stands is you claim it only takes a week to train up skills to fully field drones. This is the problem where it all starts to break down. To make drones best as they can be, you must train all these other skills as well for your ship to field drones, not only that but many ships that are dedicated drone carriers tend to take a heavy nerf in their primary weapon systems, and those that don't take said nerf typically don't have the drone bay or drone cap to make fielding drones useful.


My issue is it takes a week just to field 5 drones. I dont care that it takes time to make those drones awsome.

that is def one of the stupidest things ive heard all week (it's not the stupidest cause ive had to go to jita a few times this week)
Shereza
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#19 - 2013-07-21 02:27:31 UTC
Vexille Endur wrote:
To the person who said replacing drones mid combat via scooping is acceptable 0/10.


Funny thing, nobody actually said that. Of course if you're in heavy TiDi and you fly you ship right you might go past some formerly owned drones...

Vexille Endur wrote:
Comparing training wepon upgrades and awu to drones is stupid. They are a overal fitting skill.


And the drones skill itself is in a very real sense an "overal fitting skill."

Vexille Endur wrote:
My issue is it takes a week just to field 5 drones. I dont care that it takes time to make those drones awsome.


You also don't care that while people can boost their ability to fit shipboard weapons a ship's mb3 is, barring a couple exceptions that really need to be removed, impossible.
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#20 - 2013-07-21 04:13:42 UTC  |  Edited by: ShahFluffers
Shereza wrote:
ShahFluffers wrote:
**Note: if I recall correctly, the DEVs had trouble finding a way to introduce such a mechanic as drones are part of the "legacy code" (they are scared of it and must wash themselves in holy water each time they muck around in it). This is why the Drone Damage Amplifier only increases a drone's raw damage rather than make them fire faster (they literally couldn't figure out how).


I'd sure love to see a post from a developer stating just that because they've already changed drone firing speed once. Drones used to have a two second rate of fire, but a couple years back some folks in CCP had the brilliant idea of doubling their damage and doubling their rate of fire to four seconds resulting in drones that did the same DPS as before but put less load on the server hardware. All things considered I wouldn't have expected them to increase drone rate of fire at all after that change.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1245091#post1245091

I also remember someone bringing it up during Pub Crawl at Fanfest and getting pretty much the same answer. "Technical Issues with the old code."


And I don't remember drones ever having a 2 second rate of fire. As far as I (and a few bittervets older than I) remember, it's always been a 4 second firing rate.
I think you are confusing how they changed drones to the hard limit of 5 per [sub-capital] ship as well as the per-ship bandwidth... then added the Drone Interfacing skill to "compensate" for the "lost damage" (which, at level 5, effectively doubles drone DPS).

Shereza wrote:
Quote:
Drones are the only weapon system you have to train 1 week to be able to field the max ammount.

And you'll only field around 22-50-something DPS for that one week.

... (consolidating different quotes here into the same blurb as they are the same argument)...

I think it stupid to have to train 1 week to be able to fot your first 5 drones for measly dps. There are far to many weaknesses to drone to make you train 7 days just so you can launch your 5 tech 1 drones. And then you have to spend just as much time training alln the drone supposrt skills.

Stat-wise, is almost no different from training up [Racial] Turret to level 5. Each drone you are able to field literally equals more DPS. And Turrets/Launchers are equally "useless" without their support skills.

Shereza wrote:
50 dps for a weeks training is horrible you invest that into gunnery or missiles right and you can double that dps. Heck you could prob have tech 2 guns.

Being able to field 50 DPS from the get-go that continues to attack and apply damage despite you being ECM'ed, Damp'ed, Tracking Disrupted, webbed, neuted, etc. is a big deal. Especially at the frigate level. Sure hostiles can kill the drones... but that means DPS isn't being applied to you... which gives you time and options (if you are smart).





Look... I'm not saying drones are perfect. From from it. I should know as I am very fond of the Tristan and use them quite often. But what you're complaining about here is literally a "non-problem."

How did you Veterans start?
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