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New T2 Modules and Faction variants

Author
Deviana Sevidon
Jades Falcon Guards
#1 - 2011-11-08 23:48:23 UTC
The new T2 Omni-tracking link has the same stats as the faction variant. I am okay with introducing T2 variants but, but they should not get the same stats as faction modules.

So a faction version of such a module should get slightly higher stats.

....as if 10,058 Goon voices cried out and were suddenly silenced.

mkint
#2 - 2011-11-08 23:53:49 UTC
Deviana Sevidon wrote:
The new T2 Omni-tracking link has the same stats as the faction variant. I am okay with introducing T2 variants but, but they should not get the same stats as faction modules.

So a faction version of such a module should get slightly higher stats.

I'm not sure I support that. In fact, I'm not sure ANY module that takes just a fraction of the time to train and has easier fitting requirements should get better stats than the T2 version. In fact, that seems like something that ought to be fixed game wide. Faction should fall between meta 4 and T2.

Maxim 6. If violence wasn’t your last resort, you failed to resort to enough of it.

Deviana Sevidon
Jades Falcon Guards
#3 - 2011-11-08 23:58:06 UTC
Faction versions were almost all the time slightly above T2. There are few faction version that have usually just lower fitting or skill requirements, but those are the uninteresting ones that rarely get used.

So easier skill and fitting requirements is the area of meta-items, but faction was, with a few pre-nerfed exceptions, the area of items with higher performance then T2.

....as if 10,058 Goon voices cried out and were suddenly silenced.

mkint
#4 - 2011-11-09 01:38:57 UTC
Deviana Sevidon wrote:
Faction versions were almost all the time slightly above T2. There are few faction version that have usually just lower fitting or skill requirements, but those are the uninteresting ones that rarely get used.

So easier skill and fitting requirements is the area of meta-items, but faction was, with a few pre-nerfed exceptions, the area of items with higher performance then T2.


Yeah, I know that usually faction is better than T2. What I'm saying, is considering the training times involved, it's kinda wrong to be that way. At least in most cases anyway. Especially in cases where the items are seeded through the LP store. Pirate faction stuff I can see being higher performance because of limited availability.

I dunno... just poking at an idea. I guess if faction was worse than T2, it'd probably be as garbage as COSMOS stuff.

Maxim 6. If violence wasn’t your last resort, you failed to resort to enough of it.

Montevius Williams
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#5 - 2011-11-09 07:04:38 UTC
Yea, I agree with mkint here. It should be Meta 1, 2, 3, 4, Faction, T2, ect....

"The American Government indoctrination system known as public education has been relentlessly churning out socialists for over 20 years". - TravisWB

Deviana Sevidon
Jades Falcon Guards
#6 - 2011-11-09 07:13:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Deviana Sevidon
And I still disagree.

T2 is high fitting requirement and skill requirement combined with good stats, but not better stats then faction. If you nerf the faction items by introducing items on the T2 level with the same stats as faction items you are hurting the market.

Ratting and Anomaly incomes for the average 0.0 players will be brought further down with such items. People who fly mission for certain factions, will only get hurt. People who farm LP from factional warfare are also getting hurt and have more problems finance their pvp.

And you just want your easy-mode T2, which is totally wrong.

Quote:
Yea, I agree with mkint here. It should be Meta 1, 2, 3, 4, Faction, T2, ect....


Only in your fantasy and if you have no clue about the market.

....as if 10,058 Goon voices cried out and were suddenly silenced.

Remarka Belle Locus
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#7 - 2011-11-09 18:42:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Remarka Belle Locus
mkint wrote:
Deviana Sevidon wrote:
Faction versions were almost all the time slightly above T2. There are few faction version that have usually just lower fitting or skill requirements, but those are the uninteresting ones that rarely get used.

So easier skill and fitting requirements is the area of meta-items, but faction was, with a few pre-nerfed exceptions, the area of items with higher performance then T2.


Yeah, I know that usually faction is better than T2. What I'm saying, is considering the training times involved, it's kinda wrong to be that way. At least in most cases anyway. Especially in cases where the items are seeded through the LP store. Pirate faction stuff I can see being higher performance because of limited availability.

I dunno... just poking at an idea. I guess if faction was worse than T2, it'd probably be as garbage as COSMOS stuff.



I think the balance comes from the high prices on faction gear. Faction mods are far more costly then the t2 counterparts. It might be a little unfair that you have to train longer to use slightly less effective gear, but that that gear is dirt cheap, comparatively. Seems like a good balance to me.

Perhaps instead of nerfing Faction, a better solution to this supposed problem would be to change the prereqs to align with those of t2 mods?

EDIT: After seeing the post above mine, this solution would even work without damaging the market
Remarka Belle Locus
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#8 - 2011-11-09 18:44:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Remarka Belle Locus
WTF double post when trying to edit.
Miriiah
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#9 - 2011-11-09 20:35:45 UTC
30/30 faction omni links please....

And make drone nav computer II 35% 25% on plain non meta(there aren't any) drone nav computer and only 30% on t2 is just sad.
mkint
#10 - 2011-11-09 20:49:55 UTC
Remarka Belle Locus wrote:
mkint wrote:
Deviana Sevidon wrote:
Faction versions were almost all the time slightly above T2. There are few faction version that have usually just lower fitting or skill requirements, but those are the uninteresting ones that rarely get used.

So easier skill and fitting requirements is the area of meta-items, but faction was, with a few pre-nerfed exceptions, the area of items with higher performance then T2.


Yeah, I know that usually faction is better than T2. What I'm saying, is considering the training times involved, it's kinda wrong to be that way. At least in most cases anyway. Especially in cases where the items are seeded through the LP store. Pirate faction stuff I can see being higher performance because of limited availability.

I dunno... just poking at an idea. I guess if faction was worse than T2, it'd probably be as garbage as COSMOS stuff.



I think the balance comes from the high prices on faction gear. Faction mods are far more costly then the t2 counterparts. It might be a little unfair that you have to train longer to use slightly less effective gear, but that that gear is dirt cheap, comparatively. Seems like a good balance to me.

Perhaps instead of nerfing Faction, a better solution to this supposed problem would be to change the prereqs to align with those of t2 mods?

EDIT: After seeing the post above mine, this solution would even work without damaging the market

Yeah, this is kinda where my thoughts were leading. Making faction gear require T2 skills. Consider, some T2 modules literally take months to train. And when you've put in all that training time, to be out-performed by 1-week modules? Rabble rabble!

Although, I think each module may need to be investigated on an individual module basis, as some faction modules (weapons) are slightly worse than T2, although those seem to be the exception instead of the rule.

Maxim 6. If violence wasn’t your last resort, you failed to resort to enough of it.

Jack bubu
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#11 - 2011-11-09 21:05:46 UTC
mkint wrote:
Remarka Belle Locus wrote:
mkint wrote:
Deviana Sevidon wrote:
Faction versions were almost all the time slightly above T2. There are few faction version that have usually just lower fitting or skill requirements, but those are the uninteresting ones that rarely get used.

So easier skill and fitting requirements is the area of meta-items, but faction was, with a few pre-nerfed exceptions, the area of items with higher performance then T2.


Yeah, I know that usually faction is better than T2. What I'm saying, is considering the training times involved, it's kinda wrong to be that way. At least in most cases anyway. Especially in cases where the items are seeded through the LP store. Pirate faction stuff I can see being higher performance because of limited availability.

I dunno... just poking at an idea. I guess if faction was worse than T2, it'd probably be as garbage as COSMOS stuff.



I think the balance comes from the high prices on faction gear. Faction mods are far more costly then the t2 counterparts. It might be a little unfair that you have to train longer to use slightly less effective gear, but that that gear is dirt cheap, comparatively. Seems like a good balance to me.

Perhaps instead of nerfing Faction, a better solution to this supposed problem would be to change the prereqs to align with those of t2 mods?

EDIT: After seeing the post above mine, this solution would even work without damaging the market

Yeah, this is kinda where my thoughts were leading. Making faction gear require T2 skills. Consider, some T2 modules literally take months to train. And when you've put in all that training time, to be out-performed by 1-week modules? Rabble rabble!

Although, I think each module may need to be investigated on an individual module basis, as some faction modules (weapons) are slightly worse than T2, although those seem to be the exception instead of the rule.

So you want to switch the favor even more towards players with High SP count?
No leave the low SP players atleast the ISK advantage.
Remarka Belle Locus
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#12 - 2011-11-09 21:51:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Remarka Belle Locus
Jack bubu wrote:

So you want to switch the favor even more towards players with High SP count?
No leave the low SP players atleast the ISK advantage.


Why shouldn't players that have been in the game longer and been training towards a goal longer get an advantage?
Better training usually means better gear in this game. Why shouldn't that apply here as well?

OR a compromise. Instead of full-on t2 skills, at least make higher meta gear require *some* more specialized training.
mkint
#13 - 2011-11-09 22:14:13 UTC
Jack bubu wrote:
mkint wrote:
Remarka Belle Locus wrote:
mkint wrote:
Deviana Sevidon wrote:
Faction versions were almost all the time slightly above T2. There are few faction version that have usually just lower fitting or skill requirements, but those are the uninteresting ones that rarely get used.

So easier skill and fitting requirements is the area of meta-items, but faction was, with a few pre-nerfed exceptions, the area of items with higher performance then T2.


Yeah, I know that usually faction is better than T2. What I'm saying, is considering the training times involved, it's kinda wrong to be that way. At least in most cases anyway. Especially in cases where the items are seeded through the LP store. Pirate faction stuff I can see being higher performance because of limited availability.

I dunno... just poking at an idea. I guess if faction was worse than T2, it'd probably be as garbage as COSMOS stuff.



I think the balance comes from the high prices on faction gear. Faction mods are far more costly then the t2 counterparts. It might be a little unfair that you have to train longer to use slightly less effective gear, but that that gear is dirt cheap, comparatively. Seems like a good balance to me.

Perhaps instead of nerfing Faction, a better solution to this supposed problem would be to change the prereqs to align with those of t2 mods?

EDIT: After seeing the post above mine, this solution would even work without damaging the market

Yeah, this is kinda where my thoughts were leading. Making faction gear require T2 skills. Consider, some T2 modules literally take months to train. And when you've put in all that training time, to be out-performed by 1-week modules? Rabble rabble!

Although, I think each module may need to be investigated on an individual module basis, as some faction modules (weapons) are slightly worse than T2, although those seem to be the exception instead of the rule.

So you want to switch the favor even more towards players with High SP count?
No leave the low SP players atleast the ISK advantage.

They'd still be able to get low SP deadspace and officer modules (which because of rarity and price, i think is still balanced.) Regular faction modules are generally too accessible to be so much better than T2 to require practically zero training.

But of course, it's up to CCP, and would probably take a lot more politiking to build much support for it.

Maxim 6. If violence wasn’t your last resort, you failed to resort to enough of it.

Deviana Sevidon
Jades Falcon Guards
#14 - 2011-11-10 01:04:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Deviana Sevidon
New T2 modules create more demand for components and the increased demand for components further increase the demand for the moon stuff used in their production. The ones who will make the biggest profit will not be the producers, but the ones controlling the still fixed supply of said ressources. Meanwhile these new T2 modules make faction mods largely obsolete.

Lower SP and fitting requirements are uninteresting, at least in 90% of the situations. On armor tanked ships you might see an imperial navy energized adaptive nano membrane far mor often then a federation navy one, because the imperial navy EAN offers better stats while the federation navy EANM has only lowered skill and fitting requirements.

The same will happen with a lot of faction modules, which no one will use because now there is a T2 module with the same primary stat. The profits from this will go mostly to the coffers of huge alliances controlling the moon goo, while the little guy, the ones doing FW-missions, or living in 0.0 ratting and doing anomalies who rarely have access to the profits of the T2 market suffers.

Edit:

I am not interested into politics, I have seen the actions of the CSM and it's simply disgusting, but that is another story. I am telling you what will actually happen, nothing less, nothing more.

....as if 10,058 Goon voices cried out and were suddenly silenced.