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So why do people hate cloaking?

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Kijo Rikki
Killboard Padding Services
#81 - 2013-07-19 14:55:27 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
So I see the thread is starting to fill up with idiots claiming everyone is a null bear. ******* shocking.
Simple facts are:

1. Ratting/mining with a cloaky in system is pointless. The loss of your ship is more costly than the isk it has made.
2. Cloakers know this, that's WHY they do it. They know it causes disruption so they do it. Anyone claiming otherwise is lying.
3. Cloakers are the ONLY people given a 100% immunity to combat unless they decide to engage.
4. Without doing something about cloaking, you can all continue to cry about the fact that null is broken and empty, because it will remain that way.

Every time this arguments is raised the same thing comes up from you morons too. "AFK cloakers cant hurt anyone". Which is true. But it's beside the point as there's NO WAY TO TELL if they are afk or waiting for a weak point to exploit. So the only option when a system is being camped is to move on, and leave the system empty. That's what gets done, and then there's mass whining about how you have nothing to fight in null.

Either grow a pair of balls and use something other than a cloaky nullified tengu in PvP or watch as the continuous stream of these threads continues to flow on the forum.


1. What? Really? Jesus i've been doing this wrong. Lol
2. Cloakers count on you being afraid of them.
3. This is true.
4. I'm not complaining.

There is a way to tell, its called deductive reasoning. Barring that, there is plenty you can do to protect yourself from the threat that a cloaked ship might pose. We've been over it thousands of times, you have options that include staying aligned and aware while you rat or mine, to setting up traps for would be hot-droppers. None of which seems to satisfy the main group of people who complain because that's not what they really want. What they really want is complete, 100% guaranteed safety to rat and mine semi-afk while they watch their TV shows.

You make a valid point, good Sir or Madam. 
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#82 - 2013-07-19 14:56:39 UTC
I love it when some lists facts ....and the facts are wrong

Lucas Kell wrote:
So I see the thread is starting to fill up with idiots claiming everyone is a null bear. ******* shocking.
Simple facts are:

1. Ratting/mining with a cloaky in system is pointless. The loss of your ship is more costly than the isk it has made.


Wrong. If you can't make the isk you spent on your ratting ship in a couple/few hours or ratting, you're doing it wrong. a ratting Tech1 BS or Assault Bc can pay for itself in 2 hours or less.

All of which is moot. When a cloaky comes in i've been known to Jump in a Venture, a Dramiel or an Imple with a target painter (yes an impel, built in stabs like the venture) and rat with assinged fighters from a carrier sticking out of a pos shield.

I also rat in triple boxing RR Domis (they may kill me, but it will cost them dearly). Another of my favorites (and it doesn't require multiboxing) is a Stabbed FoF missile Raven (especially now that FoF missiles don't hit structures anymore). i just stay in my sanctum ratting, unless the cloaky that "Gets" me has more than a point and a scram, he can't defeat my 3 warp core stabs, i just warp off and dock.

Like in all of EVE (and life), problems can be fixed simply if people would just use a little creativity. but rather than do that, they whine.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#83 - 2013-07-19 15:00:00 UTC
Kijo Rikki wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
So I see the thread is starting to fill up with idiots claiming everyone is a null bear. ******* shocking.
Simple facts are:

1. Ratting/mining with a cloaky in system is pointless. The loss of your ship is more costly than the isk it has made.
2. Cloakers know this, that's WHY they do it. They know it causes disruption so they do it. Anyone claiming otherwise is lying.
3. Cloakers are the ONLY people given a 100% immunity to combat unless they decide to engage.
4. Without doing something about cloaking, you can all continue to cry about the fact that null is broken and empty, because it will remain that way.

Every time this arguments is raised the same thing comes up from you morons too. "AFK cloakers cant hurt anyone". Which is true. But it's beside the point as there's NO WAY TO TELL if they are afk or waiting for a weak point to exploit. So the only option when a system is being camped is to move on, and leave the system empty. That's what gets done, and then there's mass whining about how you have nothing to fight in null.

Either grow a pair of balls and use something other than a cloaky nullified tengu in PvP or watch as the continuous stream of these threads continues to flow on the forum.


1. What? Really? Jesus i've been doing this wrong. Lol
2. Cloakers count on you being afraid of them.
3. This is true.
4. I'm not complaining.

There is a way to tell, its called deductive reasoning. Barring that, there is plenty you can do to protect yourself from the threat that a cloaked ship might pose. We've been over it thousands of times, you have options that include staying aligned and aware while you rat or mine, to setting up traps for would be hot-droppers. None of which seems to satisfy the main group of people who complain because that's not what they really want. What they really want is complete, 100% guaranteed safety to rat and mine semi-afk while they watch their TV shows.


Exactly. And those whiners are just like the miners who refused to give up yeild for tank or those mission runners who run missions in pimped out ships that can be scanned rather than use a more modest fit backed up by +6% hardwirings and pirate implnnt sets that CAN"T be scanned.....

I wish CCP would make a pop up appear everytime a person undocked PVE fit ship that said "YOU sucking at this game is no reason for US to change something you don't like". lol
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#84 - 2013-07-19 15:28:54 UTC
Sigh... I tire of reading comment from mornic people only willing to see things from thier point of view. Lets get one thing out there first. I don't rat. I don't mine. So I don't give a crap about someone cloaking. That said, I understand why it's done and why it's hated.

Elian Troller wrote:

1. Risk/Reward
2. Yes. We already got that you are scared of cloakers. So what?
3. Cloaked explorers are very vulnurable to gangs on data/relic sites. Because, well, they cannot fight back.
4. Null is empty because of Hi and Lo sec activities. It has nothing to do with cloakers

1. The risk outweighs the reward while there is a cloaky ship in system, That's why people dock.
2. I couldn't give a **** about cloakers but if you rat or mine while one is there, you are running a high risk.
3. Cloaked ships in null are not explorers, they are alts and people who specifically want easy kills.
4. Null is empty because the risk:reward ratio is ridiculous. Cloakers are a large contribution to that when you take into account how long cloakers spend in null.

You're too scared to post on the forum on your main, so you can STFU to be honest.

Tippia wrote:
Interestingly enough, only one of those is vaguely approaching anything that can be considered a fact.

1. Ratting/mining with a cloaky in system is entirely doable. You just have to take precautions.
3. Cloakers are as immune to combat as anyone who's docked and, really, as anyone in a suitably fast ship.
4. None of the problems with null are related to cloaking — it's just an easy and readily handy target for people who haven't actually analysed what it is that is causing them problems.

That leaves #2 as the only fact. As luck would have it, this knowledge is easy to subvert.

1. See above. Risk far outweighs reward. You'd make a decent amount isk in high sec with very little risk.
3. WTF? Cloakers cannot be targeted, they cannot be shot, they cannot be probed down. You also can't just wait on the undock for them. If you don't get this, then honestly you shouldn't even bother trying.
4. Null has a lot of problems. Part of it is that it is empty. That's because its safer to all group up in just a few systems leaving the majority empty except moon harvesters and jump bridges. They need to increase the reward in relation to risk or reduce the risk. People talk about WH space for example. Well sleepers generate a hell of a lot more income and you have no risk of a hotdrop, and can control the maximum ship size that can visit you by the class of wormhole you choose to inhabit. You can also collapse all entrances.

Jenn aSide wrote:
Wrong. If you can't make the isk you spent on your ratting ship in a couple/few hours or ratting, you're doing it wrong. a ratting Tech1 BS or Assault Bc can pay for itself in 2 hours or less.

But you don;t have hours while you get hotdropped. If a red is in system, and you choose to stay ratting, if they drop you after half an hour, you've gained only half an hour of ratting at the cost of your ship. If you safe up, and move to a new system, you only lose the time it takes you to move.

You guys have all these great ideas "yeah, lets just rat with a carrier assigning me fighters". A single ship shouldn't have the power to force you to such extremes.
If a gang wants to jump in and start a fight then drop in reinforcements, fine. But a single cloaking ship controlling the entire situation places too much power in one area. Then giving that ship immunity from action make it all the mroe ridiculous.

At the end of the day though, the whole argument is pointless. People will continue to raise these threads, you will continue to troll and null sec will remain pointelss for the majority of the game to visit.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Kijo Rikki
Killboard Padding Services
#85 - 2013-07-19 15:37:50 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Useless dribble.


Seriously, if you reason that a single red in system will dictate how you play, there is no hope for you. You can make all the counter arguments you want, people who are successful in nullsec have told you what to do, and you refuse to accept it and offer a counter argument as to why it's unfair. If the risk outweighs the reward it is only because you have no idea or are unwilling to take the steps necessary to mitigate those risks.

That is the cold hard truth.

You make a valid point, good Sir or Madam. 
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#86 - 2013-07-19 15:46:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Lucas Kell wrote:
Sigh... I tire of reading comment from mornic people only willing to see things from thier point of view.
Maybe if you stopped posting, we'd see a lot less of that…

Quote:
1. See above. Risk far outweighs reward. You'd make a decent amount isk in high sec with very little risk.
3. WTF? Cloakers cannot be targeted, they cannot be shot, they cannot be probed down. You also can't just wait on the undock for them. If you don't get this, then honestly you shouldn't even bother trying.
4. Null has a lot of problems. Part of it is that it is empty.
1. Risks can be mitigated, and the simple fact of the matter that it can be (and is) done. Thus, the claim that it is pointless is not a fact. The ability to rat and mine in a dirt-cheap ship means that the claim that it loss is too costly is also not a fact.
3. …same as people in stations, and same as people who will simply no longer be around when you try to probe them down. You have to wait for them to uncloak, just like you have to wait for people to undock and slow down. So it's not a fact cloakers are the only people given 100% immunity to combat.
4. …and none of those problems have anything to do with cloaking or people being AFK. So it's not fact that null will remain empty because of cloaking.

Quote:
But a single cloaking ship controlling the entire situation places too much power in one area.
…so stop giving him that power. Simple.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#87 - 2013-07-19 15:48:29 UTC
Kijo Rikki wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
Useless dribble.


Seriously, if you reason that a single red in system will dictate how you play, there is no hope for you. You can make all the counter arguments you want, people who are successful in nullsec have told you what to do, and you refuse to accept it and offer a counter argument as to why it's unfair. If the risk outweighs the reward it is only because you have no idea or are unwilling to take the steps necessary to mitigate those risks.

That is the cold hard truth.

Glad to see you read my posts before responding. Since I neither rat nor mine in null sec most of what you put here means sod all.

The risk does outweigh the reward.
The reward is "the ability to mine/rat here".
Since there are many other systems, most people just move, thus losing about 10 mins of time.
The risk is a 100% chance of losing a ship if engaged, since you are fit for ratting/mining.
When a cloaker enters system, he generally has the intention of engaging, as at this point we know he is not AFK. Then if he does kill you, he knows to return to the system as he scored a kill here so may score another.

So it's 10 mins of time vs potential loss of ship + encouraging the cloaker to return.
Since the majority of counter arguments to the case against cloaking are essentially "STFU NOOB L2P" you have absolutely no right to decide that the post that you didn't even bother reading was not a counter argument.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#88 - 2013-07-19 15:52:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Lucas Kell wrote:
Since I neither rat nor mine in null
…your evaluation of what the risks and rewards are ring a bit hollow, especially when people who do rat or mine in null come along and say that the rewards easily outweigh the risks.

Quote:
The risk is a 100% chance of losing a ship if engaged, since you are fit for ratting/mining.
That's a risk you can adjust yourself, and it is further reliant on the risk of being engaged to begin with, which can be adjusted. So your failure to manage risk does not mean that the risks categorically outweigh the rewards.
Elian Troller
24th Imperial Crusade
Amarr Empire
#89 - 2013-07-19 15:55:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Elian Troller
Lucas Kell wrote:
Sigh... I tire of reading comment from mornic people only willing to see things from thier point of view.

You are one of them. You think that's only YOUR POINT is THE ONLY VALID ONE.

Lets get one thing out there first. I don't rat. I don't mine. So I don't give a crap about someone cloaking.

Yes you do give a crap. Otherwise you wouldn't have posted in this thread. And there ARE people who rat and mine

That said, I understand why it's done and why it's hated.

No you don't.

Elian Troller wrote:

1. Risk/Reward
2. Yes. We already got that you are scared of cloakers. So what?
3. Cloaked explorers are very vulnurable to gangs on data/relic sites. Because, well, they cannot fight back.
4. Null is empty because of Hi and Lo sec activities. It has nothing to do with cloakers

1. The risk outweighs the reward while there is a cloaky ship in system, That's why people dock.

It means the cloaker did it's job.

2. I couldn't give a **** about cloakers but if you rat or mine while one is there, you are running a high risk.

Some people take the risk and stay. Chickens like you dock and whine on forums.

3. Cloaked ships in null are not explorers, they are alts and people who specifically want easy kills.

I explore null space on my Anathema. Your argument is automatically invalid.

4. Null is empty because the risk:reward ratio is ridiculous. Cloakers are a large contribution to that when you take into account how long cloakers spend in null.

Bullshit.

You're too scared to post on the forum on your main, so you can STFU to be honest.

You have no rights to make me STFU, chicken. Keep on whining. I like your tears.
And yes, this character is my main, specialized in CovOps and Recons. If you do not know **** it's YOU the one to STFU.


Inline. *poprorn*
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#90 - 2013-07-19 15:55:31 UTC
Tippia wrote:
1. Risks can be mitigated, and the simple fact of the matter that it can be (and is) done. Thus, the claim that it is pointless is not a fact. The ability to rat and mine in a dirt-cheap ship means that the claim that it loss is too costly is also not a fact.
3. …same as people in stations, and same as people who will simply no longer be around when you try to probe them down. You have to wait for them to uncloak, just like you have to wait for people to undock and slow down. So it's not a fact cloakers are the only people given 100% immunity to combat.
4. …and none of those problems have anything to do with cloaking or people being AFK. So it's not fact that null will remain empty because of cloaking.

Quote:
But a single cloaking ship controlling the entire situation places too much power in one area.
…so stop giving him that power. Simple.

1. Risk ARE mitigated. By moving system. Which is ******** if that's the games mechanic for dealing with cloakers.
3. People in stations HAVE TO UNDOCK so... YOU HAVE 1 POINT TO SECURE WITH A DICTOR AND YOU ARE SAFE. Not to mention that stations in null generally don't allow neuts. This is not the same as a cloaker. You sir are an absolute moron.
4. So the fact that a good portion of these posts are raised by players in null means nothing then? Just because its not what affect YOU IN NULL does not means its the same for the rest of the population you arrogant prick.

Take that power away - simple.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Kijo Rikki
Killboard Padding Services
#91 - 2013-07-19 15:57:17 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:

Glad to see you read my posts before responding. Since I neither rat nor mine in null sec most of what you put here means sod all.

The risk does outweigh the reward.
The reward is "the ability to mine/rat here".
Since there are many other systems, most people just move, thus losing about 10 mins of time.
The risk is a 100% chance of losing a ship if engaged, since you are fit for ratting/mining.
When a cloaker enters system, he generally has the intention of engaging, as at this point we know he is not AFK. Then if he does kill you, he knows to return to the system as he scored a kill here so may score another.

So it's 10 mins of time vs potential loss of ship + encouraging the cloaker to return.
Since the majority of counter arguments to the case against cloaking are essentially "STFU NOOB L2P" you have absolutely no right to decide that the post that you didn't even bother reading was not a counter argument.


No, no it doesn't. Personally I see no reason to move if a red is in local, I lose no time.

Pro tip: I rat in pvp fit ships. Or I rat in escape-fit ships. Either the unfortunate soul who uncloaks near me is going to get a surprise (>^_(>@_@)> surprise from me (and most likely my friends), or he is going to be left empty handed. 0% ship loss, or if I do lose the ship, much fun will be had.

The line about a cloakers intention is pure bs. Most of the time, they are there to collect intel or just to scare you, and leave to go to work or do whatever, and that thing sits there. This is where deductive reasoning comes in, if after 30 minutes to an hour you've made no contact, odds are he is truly afk. Still, preparation is key. See above.

The majority of counter arguments have been learn to stay aligned, pay attention to d-scan and overview, be ready to engage or escape. It's really that simple, but go ahead spitting useless dribble.

You make a valid point, good Sir or Madam. 
BoBoZoBo
MGroup9
#92 - 2013-07-19 15:57:55 UTC
Because they like to do thing solo or do not understand how to counter with a group.
People don't link things that make them cry.

Primary Test Subject • SmackTalker Elite
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#93 - 2013-07-19 16:03:32 UTC
Kijo Rikki wrote:

No, no it doesn't. Personally I see no reason to move if a red is in local, I lose no time.

Pro tip: I rat in pvp fit ships. Or I rat in escape-fit ships. Either the unfortunate soul who uncloaks near me is going to get a surprise (>^_(>@_@)> surprise from me (and most likely my friends), or he is going to be left empty handed. 0% ship loss, or if I do lose the ship, much fun will be had.

The line about a cloakers intention is pure bs. Most of the time, they are there to collect intel or just to scare you, and leave to go to work or do whatever, and that thing sits there. This is where deductive reasoning comes in, if after 30 minutes to an hour you've made no contact, odds are he is truly afk. Still, preparation is key. See above.

The majority of counter arguments have been learn to stay aligned, pay attention to d-scan and overview, be ready to engage or escape. It's really that simple, but go ahead spitting useless dribble.

OK "Pro" let's see your uber PvP exhumer for all the miners, since null is where all high end mining is done.

I don't think you understand what risk is. Just because you assume someone to be afk does not make it so and does not reduce their risk. You can't confirm they are AFK, so the carry the same risk as someone that isn't afk. Cloakers know that, that's WHY they do it.

Useless dribble? OK that must be the case. Every one of the people complaining about this is clearly just useless. Please oh master of the universe guide us in how to play your way since you run the game and decide all the rules... Oh wait... You don't... so what you say and what I say is equally useless.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Plastic Psycho
Necro-Economics
#94 - 2013-07-19 16:07:25 UTC
Fly like you're in an occupied C3 or C4; you'll be fine.

What? You don't know how to do that? Then join a WH Corp, and learn. Those skills are useful.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#95 - 2013-07-19 16:07:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Lucas Kell wrote:
1. Risk ARE mitigated. By moving system.
…or through a myriad of other means. This means that it's not a fact that it's pointless, nor is it a fact that it's too costly.

Quote:
3. People in stations HAVE TO UNDOCK so...
…it's pretty analogue to how cloakers have to uncloak. Since they can move around without undocking and take you in the back, they arguably have more freedom to pick and choose their fights. So it's not a fact that only cloakers have 100% immunity to combat (or even that they're the only ones who can control the where and when of an attack).

Quote:
4. So the fact that a good portion of these posts are raised by players in null means nothing then?
It certainly doesn't mean that cloaking is the cause of a (supposedly) low nullsec population, no. It just means that some people in null probably shouldn't be there to begin with, and that the same people haven't fully analysed what it is that's causing them problems. So it's not fact that null will remain empty because of cloaking.

Quote:
You sir are an absolute moron […] you arrogant prick.
No. I just had plenty of counter-arguments and actual facts on my side, so I didn't have to resort to nonsensical inventions and ad hominems. I accept your (not very) graceful surrender, though.
Elian Troller
24th Imperial Crusade
Amarr Empire
#96 - 2013-07-19 16:08:28 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:

OK "Pro" let's see your uber PvP exhumer for all the miners, since null is where all high end mining is done.

I don't think you understand what risk is. Just because you assume someone to be afk does not make it so and does not reduce their risk. You can't confirm they are AFK, so the carry the same risk as someone that isn't afk. Cloakers know that, that's WHY they do it.

He does mine in null, he aknowledges that there might be cloaked ships, he fits accordinly.
Well, yes, he does understand what risk is and takes it.

Useless dribble? OK that must be the case. Every one of the people complaining about this is clearly just useless. Please oh master of the universe guide us in how to play your way since you run the game and decide all the rules... Oh wait... You don't... so what you say and what I say is equally useless.

Again, you are the only one complaining here, saying the other opinions are crap'n'stuff and trying to force the only correct opinion - yours. And yes, what you say is more useless than what other people say because you are the one failing to provide any proofs and you are the once keep whining like a kid.



Another portion of bullshit.
Smile
Kijo Rikki
Killboard Padding Services
#97 - 2013-07-19 16:09:51 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:

OK "Pro" let's see your uber PvP exhumer for all the miners, since null is where all high end mining is done.

I don't think you understand what risk is. Just because you assume someone to be afk does not make it so and does not reduce their risk. You can't confirm they are AFK, so the carry the same risk as someone that isn't afk. Cloakers know that, that's WHY they do it.

Useless dribble? OK that must be the case. Every one of the people complaining about this is clearly just useless. Please oh master of the universe guide us in how to play your way since you run the game and decide all the rules... Oh wait... You don't... so what you say and what I say is equally useless.



http://imgur.com/MAUxRy7

You make a valid point, good Sir or Madam. 
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#98 - 2013-07-19 16:14:17 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Quote:
3. People in stations HAVE TO UNDOCK so...
…it's pretty analogue to how cloakers have to uncloak. Since they can move around without undocking and take you in the back, they arguably have more freedom to pick and choose their fights. So it's not a fact that only cloakers have 100% immunity to combat (or even that they're the only ones who can control the where and when of an attack).

HOW DO THEY HAVE ANY RISK!?!?!?!?!
If they choose not to fight, they can't be FOUND let alone KILLED. That is 100% SAFE.
A docked player undocking into an interdictor cant get away so they are completely at the mercy of the people outside the station. Their only alternative options are JC or log off.
Seriously... Someone else chime in on this one, this guys clearly being dumb with this one right?

Tippia wrote:
Quote:
You sir are an absolute moron […] you arrogant prick.
No. I just had plenty of counter-arguments and actual facts on my side, so I didn't have to resort to nonsensical inventions and ad hominems. I accept your (not very) graceful surrender, though.

More arrogance. You go ahead and claim your vitory on the forum battle. HEad off now and go whine in some other thread abotu how your easy kills will be removed while the rest of us carry on here. Thanks for coming.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Plastic Psycho
Necro-Economics
#99 - 2013-07-19 16:16:18 UTC
Kijo Rikki wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:

OK "Pro" let's see your uber PvP exhumer for all the miners, since null is where all high end mining is done.

I don't think you understand what risk is. Just because you assume someone to be afk does not make it so and does not reduce their risk. You can't confirm they are AFK, so the carry the same risk as someone that isn't afk. Cloakers know that, that's WHY they do it.

Useless dribble? OK that must be the case. Every one of the people complaining about this is clearly just useless. Please oh master of the universe guide us in how to play your way since you run the game and decide all the rules... Oh wait... You don't... so what you say and what I say is equally useless.



http://imgur.com/MAUxRy7

Yup. Pretty much that. ^

It takes a bit of time to set up the safes, and you need to make them far enough out that changing position in the belt or Anom doesn't break the ring. In fact, if you do it right, one ring of safes can cover an entire system.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#100 - 2013-07-19 16:16:20 UTC
Elian Troller wrote:
Another portion of bullshit.
Smile

Hush now child, adults are talking.
Why don't you go check on that complaint ticket about me.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.