Player Features and Ideas Discussion

Nos will still only be represented in ~5% of fits with the remainder being neuts or empty .. it is a good spiel that they will be at full power in small vs. large, but since that means that you have to enter the hurt zone where nueting, webbing and ouchie resides any benefit is lost ... tiercide added a lot of mids and utility slots across the board so not sure what match-up the concept is based on to be honest.

Double the ranges on S/M at the same time and they "might" make it to a staggering 20% .. just sayin'

PS: I demand that all Amarr laser hulls be revised to have smaller reservoirs with insane recharge if this goes through .. bad enough that we are the prime target of every neut in the cluster but our oversized barely larger caps will now benefit those that will do us harm. Alternatively .. gief more mids!

You keep running in circles avoiding the question while trying to prove a nonsense theory.

Which more reliably helps a smaller vessel vs a large one (be it neuting the smaller vessel or not), using absolute cap or a percentage of cap?

You still can't get around this one inescapable, core fact... no matter how many times you try to put words in my mouth (points for persistence though). You try to insist that it will only be used as a neut defense, which isn't true of course in reality, but even then it is more beneficial under the proposed system in most cases.

You can do the song and dance until the cows come home, but you can't change the facts.

Common example:
Small ship is Nossing a larger one to keep its tackle, prop mod, and possibly tank going while under Neut pressure.

Thanks to it's NOS and it's quicker cycle time, even though it hits zero cap breifly it recoups enough to keep most (or occasionally all) of the above going... averaging around 10% cap.

Under the current system, what happens when that larger ship (due to firing weapons, prop mod, possible Neut pressure from the rest of the gang, it's own Neut use) goes below 10% cap? Thats right, your Nos begins to stop functioning reliably... eventually missing all but the 1st Nos cycle.

What happens under the proposed system? Your Nos continues to function reliably because even when that larger ship falls below your 10% threshold it still has a huge amount of raw cap compared to you. He has to run himself completely out of cap for your NOS to stop being of continuous benefit... or at least far below the level of cap he needs to run that Neut or most of his other large modules.

I've never said there is no way to defeat NOS under the proposed system (nor should there be), however it is certainly a step up from where we are right now... and an excellent starting point if more tweaks are needed.

If you're a frigate finding yourself fighting BS's or cruisers, why would you fit a NOS even with the changes? In order to NOS the BS you have to get within neut range of the BS which would cap you out in a single pulse or worse, to scram/webs from the BS or one of his nearby pals as you try to stay in small NOS range. All this potential danger just to drain 3 GJ/sec at best? NOS's will still be most effective and useful when fighting same-class ships and this change pretty much doesn't change that dynamic at all (i.e. NOS's still being dropped for neut fits in each class as they are now).

All the change does is make NOS's significantly worse for larger ships than they already were. Rather than messing around making sideways changes at best that won't do anything and are confusing and arbitrary to new players expecting NOS's to work in a logical way, lets actually address any of the actual drawbacks of NOS use across all ship levels.

I wasn't limiting myself to BS tackler fits but we can if you want...

I see you didn't mention webs which a small NOS would put you inside. Yes I know not every BS fit includes webs but why take that chance just to gain 3.3 GJ/sec at best? I still argue that this fit (and every other on a frig fighting up class), would be better off staying outside 10k and using cap boosters against any heavy neuting.

Does someone other than Ranger1 think this tweak changes anything?

I really see no problem in NOS working like that as long as you make the base amount it nuets from the enemy and gives you less than a actuall neut....

Not everything is a 1 on 1, being webbed opens you up to his pals (or drones) BS or not.

Even if it was 1 on 1, this change doesn't affect this scenario at all, the frig will still be at 0% cap and be able to NOS the BS all the time.

I'd rather CCP actually address one of the drawbacks with NOS to increase their use rather than make sideways changes like this.

This is essentially useless. Buff to small NOS, in that now you can guarantee that your foe has more absolute capacitor than you as long as you are doing what you always did, which is to NOS a larger ship while AB sig tanking (ie; dual-prop dram or Daredevil or Tristan).

But it is essentially worthless to medium NOS except when fighting up a class (eg, NOS legion vs BS, Curses vs BS, Canes vs BS).

Oddly, it will also help Augorors and the like maintain cap stability by NOSing a BS (friendly or otherwise). It will however, not guarantee it. It would also require a 3 rep - 1 ET - Nos setup or a 3 rep / 2 Nos setup and at that point you'd be better off just going for the 4 rep/1 transfer fits or the 3 reps / 2 transfer fits.

Large NOS...well, it will be a buff to Bhaalgorns and Geddons in capital fights. Maybe.

The amount drained won't let you run 4 neut / 4 Nos fits as you don't drain enough with your Nos to run a Neut. You'd still need a cap booster or a splash of cap from guardians/augorors to sustain yourself long-term. But once you add cap it renders your Nos useless. Which is pretty pointless because you are foregoing neuting power which can be applied EVERYWHERE for Nosing which can only go off a capital and only a capital which has capacitor - which isn't what you want to see when trying to flatten a tiriage carrier.

So you're better off with 8 neuts and cap booster + guards and have the alpha neut ability and ability to smack down the cap of smaller foes. If you could pull enough cap out of a capital to power neuts for use on the subcap fleet this would be OK as you are damaging the capital cap to use on damaging the subcap fleet's cap. This would drive both down at the same time...just like 8 Neuts and better fleet planning on your part.

This also holds true for novelty fits like Sentinels, Curses and the like for solo work; there is no practicable way of using the Nos for equal-sized fights because it actually works against itself and requires you to gimp your fit. There's only really potential with kitey shield curses running SPR's to massacre capacitor. But a proper shield kitey curse fleet wouldn't bother; you'd just fit neuts (easier!) and leave it at that.

Overall, a useless change. As said before, it buffs (slightly) the Nos that actually works (smalls) and effectively restricts the medium and heavy to cap fights at all, and in every situation it is smarter to cap inject and run neuts. Because neuts will get your enemy down, 100% guaranteed. Nos will only maybe work.

The proper fix is to have a Nos drain the enemy's natural cap recharge.

The small would be limited to sucking an amount equal to just below the average frigate's cap recharge rate; likewise for the medium, likewise for the large.

If your enemy recharges cap at 5 GJ/s, that cap goes to you, no questions asked. Your enemy then eventually runs out of capacitor, unless it injects, and you get infinite cap from them...but they will still (for one module) out recharge your NOS - but only just.

This way, a heavy NOS will take ALL of the cap recharge of a smaller ship, and MOST of the recharge of a larger ship. it will keep a frigate flat, and a cruiser and a BC flat - but it won't MAKE them flat except by their own actions. If they cap inject, that cap is theirs to play with, but not their natural cap regen.

When fighting up a class, you will get the enemy's cap regen to the limit of your module. This will nearly double your own regen, allowing you to run more things. A bonus amount from modifiers, such as on a Pilgrim, will see the Pilgrim able to suck many, many times its usual rate - up to what the enemy can give.

This way, you could neut an enemy flat, and keep him essentially flat by sticking a Nos on him to keep draining whatever pathetic amount he is producing. It wouldn't allow you to MWD about willy-nilly forever. It would allow you to fight down a class....very inefficiently...and would allow you to use bonused ships to fight up a class very effectively. ie; if a Medium Nos normally sucks 15GJ/s and a Pilgrim got 500% that would be up to 75GJ/s - which would be effective vs BS's.

Not like this idea will ever see the light of day.

They promised to keep PvE the same so they'll essentially have two implementations which are completely different. Needing to have dual designs are usually the sign of a simple, logical design of a module....oh wait what's the opposite of that?

I do not think the current mechanic is "fairly useless". The change is then only minor. It makes NOS more useful, but at the same time will cap batteries and SMC rigs become less useful.

At least give us XL cap batteries then.

No, what they used to be was draining even when the enemy had no cap, no one has proposed that. Like I said before, if draining as long as the enemy has cap is too OP then tweak the amount drained, the fitting, the range, cycle time, ....something! Anything is better than adding an arbitrary mechanic that makes no sense and is anything but how you would expect a draining module to work if you were seeing it the first time as a new player.