These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Skill Discussions

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

EVE's greatest strength - is also it's greatest weakness. The SP grind for new players.

First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Marcus Walkuris
Aww yeahhh
#141 - 2013-07-13 04:30:59 UTC
To be honest I believe with my previous suggestion frig and small turret skill at 5.
You will have a very decent frigate before you even know all the in and outs of solo pvp.
Meaning you should be more then viable for the many roles you can be assigned in group pvp while making a real difference in immediate perceived and real independence.
Tempest Ignis
Doomheim
#142 - 2013-07-13 09:25:44 UTC
Hey,

To the OP.
As a new player I find the ' idea' of being far behind also very astonishing. However after
digging into the details of skills (evemon for example) you can choose a focus and be whatever you want to focus on.
If someone have teched some skills to V and you ' merely' to 3. I'm focussing on mining and i have discovered i can be a nice miner within 2 months. Of course i will not be perfect but i can join a corp who does nulsec and play with exhumers.

You will need 2 months to learn some basics anyway.. time is what is also needed for your brain to adjust to the sheer amount of skills :)

Also the incredible 'grind' you have to do in for example a such as WoW is something i wanted to move away from as well.

Yes and do setup a second acount. I can recommend that (i have 3 monitors anyway). At least have a char focussing on Trading, hauling or planet building etc so you can get into cash making. Cash is what you will need later on when your skills catch up with your ISK. Just become an ISK magnate. Warren buffet Eve style.

Tempest
Sweeet
Homeworld Defense Collective
#143 - 2013-07-13 11:23:40 UTC
Marcus Walkuris wrote:
To be honest I believe with my previous suggestion frig and small turret skill at 5.
You will have a very decent frigate before you even know all the in and outs of solo pvp.
Meaning you should be more then viable for the many roles you can be assigned in group pvp while making a real difference in immediate perceived and real independence.


In regards to ships & weapons yes I'd definitely only want to see frigates and small turrets at 5 given to new players of the race they chose only, nothing higher. But some of the support skills wouldn't go a miss either, something to really help break the ice so to speak.

Stop being afraid, fly cheap and dangerous.
Tibo Paralian
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#144 - 2013-07-13 14:46:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Tibo Paralian
Tempest Ignis wrote:
Hey,

To the OP.
As a new player I find the ' idea' of being far behind also very astonishing. However after
digging into the details of skills (evemon for example) you can choose a focus and be whatever you want to focus on.
If someone have teched some skills to V and you ' merely' to 3. I'm focussing on mining and i have discovered i can be a nice miner within 2 months. Of course i will not be perfect but i can join a corp who does nulsec and play with exhumers.

You will need 2 months to learn some basics anyway.. time is what is also needed for your brain to adjust to the sheer amount of skills :)

Also the incredible 'grind' you have to do in for example a such as WoW is something i wanted to move away from as well.

Yes and do setup a second acount. I can recommend that (i have 3 monitors anyway). At least have a char focussing on Trading, hauling or planet building etc so you can get into cash making. Cash is what you will need later on when your skills catch up with your ISK. Just become an ISK magnate. Warren buffet Eve style.

Tempest



You say 'Tomato', I say 'Tomato'.

Let's see, finding a focus. What if you like to try out multiple things, that will sure add to the time it takes to be decent at it, wouldn't it. In your example; mining. According to eve-skilltracker, with +3 to all implants, it would take 5d - 36days - 80days to have the Basic - Medium - Expert badge in High Sec Mining, in that order. And there are more badges, for example; low sec, null, ice, gas harvesting and refining. Now this might be a fine goal for someone who simply wants to be a miner, but what if they want to train towards something else?

Oh, but you mention a second account, how convenient, specialize in yet another thing so that your main character does not have to; less time waiting for skills to finish.

You also mention WoW, I'l give u an analogy; skill training is like afk honor botting.
____

That sounded quite whiny and I'm afraid I don't have a solution or even if one is needed seeing as this game seems to get more subscribers as time goes one (all those new subscribers are not alt accounts right?). I do dislike however that I've seen quite a few people say there is no grind in this game. And by grind I do not mean the slang term: An erotic rotation of the pelvis.
GTN
BALKAN EXPRESS
Shadow Cartel
#145 - 2013-07-15 09:51:10 UTC
After playing this game for 6 years, sometimes I wish I could go back in time, be a noob again and experience the wonderful sensation of exploring the game and learning new things.
Takari
Promised Victorious Entropy
#146 - 2013-07-15 17:27:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Takari
I just came back to eve, my character is 9 years old and at resubscribe time had a paltry 2.5 million SP. I remember the terrible new pilot experience in the beginning, and I've created an alt to see the new (vastly improved) experience.

The only reason I'm staying this time is because of the corp I joined at the suggestion of a RL friend. This corporation has made all of the difference in the world, giving everyone the opportunity to do things regardless of skill level. From T1 fits that work well for gang pvp to mining and industrial opportunities.

Far beyond SP walls, equipment limitations, etc... I think this game needs a broader selection of default newbie corporations.

After the initial "Learn the various things to do in EVE" missions new players should be given a chance to chose a progression corporation if they so wish. Whether it be Lowsec PVP, FW, Missions, Mining, etc. and one free InterBUS haul of all the newb equipment and a jump clone to a hub for that activity. (Or a free T1 combat frig and Dessie, Venture and Hauler, whatever it is at the location)

I'm ok with everyone getting Level 1 of Infomorph psychology as a starter skill.

I think this would go a lot farther towards getting people more involved with the game and help retain new players.

The SP was never and is still not the barrier for me, the barrier was always "I dont feel like I can contribute with the SP I have" and being in a proper corp can really help you realize that you *can* have fun even if you can only fly basic ships.

http://evefaces.com/?takari

"Roll the dice, don't think twice. This is the way of things. Welcome to EVE." ~ CCP Falcon

"Good luck, shoot straight and don't back down." - Serendipity Lost
Capt Gauss
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#147 - 2013-07-16 07:25:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Capt Gauss
As a newbro with less than a month under my belt (about 25 something days) I have been having a blast with my corp. Doing everything from mining, to pvp.

While I am industry oriented, I spent 5 days training some combat skills and I got to see something amazing today.

Something amazing
I also got my first kill today in a talwar :3. That 95% kill efficiency xD

I have to disagree with OP, having the long curve to get to the larger battleships is to actually help you learn the ropes. I don't expect someone a month new to a complex game to be able to fly the largest ships in the game. Plus, when you do get to the battleships, there will be a sense of value as getting there takes a freaking long time.
Vorll Minaaran
Centre Of Attention
#148 - 2013-07-17 07:30:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Vorll Minaaran
Just want to put here some old devblog about starter skill changes in the last years:

Before Apocrypha characters started with 800-900k SP in various skills after a bit too long char creation process, with 2-3 lvl5 skills if i rememeber correctly. (ie. Gunnery lvl5 + Small Hybrid Turret lvl5 as Caldari-Deteis-Scientists ancestry with Spec. ops background char)

That changed in Apocrypha: http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/your-revamped-rookie-coming-to-an-asteroid-field-near-you-part-one/
And this: https://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/a-virgin-mind/

And then with Incursion 1.0.1 Learning skills went away: http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/learning-skills-are-going-away-1/

I think it was a bad decision to remove most of the starter skills. Those skills gave better start for new pilots even if they didnt know what skill they need. Starting with 30-50k SP and low skill levels give them bad feeling about their capabilites and progression.

What could be the solution? I dont know, wondered about giving them free SP during the carreer missions, but they would spend it on useless skills, not knowing which skills they need. But maybe could work in small batches like 40-60k free SP after each mission capped at 500-600k total.
Or could be a timed (daily) mission line like the RnD agents works now. But it need a better tutorial on skills to let them choice wisely to spend their free SP.

And one more thing: I have experienced this so called 'SP wall' once: when i trained a WH scanner alt and was very impatient and unsatisfied with the progression.
When i started my first character, i didnt mind skills/guns/EFT/EveMon/SP, just played the game and enjoyed. After the trial days i realized it is along term game, maybe it could last for my entire life, so i dont need rush with skills/ships etc. SP coming with time i just have to wait and enjoy the game while time is ticking. Every new player who stays long enough would catch-up with the veterans.

The biggest problem is in the new players' perception of EVE.
When CCP advertises EVE would they press harder the fact that EVE very different from the other popular MMO's. Ie. the offline skill training feature and SP coming with time has a side effect: there is no 'power-leveling' in EVE.

It's a challenge for CCP, player habits/percepitions/expectations dont change easily.
Auduin Samson
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#149 - 2013-07-17 09:41:23 UTC
I'm kinda barreling past a lot of the discussion here, but I do think the OP is onto something. All T1 skills is a bit rash, but maybe at least a more robust starting skillset would be nice. Something to keep new players interested longer. This would have almost no impact on the game, as these are quick training skills that all experienced players have, but it could mean the difference between a new player staying and quitting because they are frustrated at their inability to accomplish anything early on.

Personally, this what I think a new player should be able to do. The game has a lot of these already, but a few tweaks and additions could make a world of difference to a newbie.

1. Fly a frigate of their starting faction
2. Fly a mining frigate
3. Fit prop mods
4. Fit tank mods
5. Fit whatever weapons their faction uses
6. Use a mining laser

Ideally, all newbie related (IE small, frigate, T1 stuff) non-support skills should start with a character at Level 1 (for example, you can use an afterburner, but you need to buy Acceleration Control before it shines). This way people would be able to quickly try out what they like, figure out where they want to go, and begin specializing right away. Would it give a newbie today a bigger head start than a newbie from a year ago? Yes. It won't, however, kick off balance issues against pilots older than a couple weeks.
Tsukino Stareine
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#150 - 2013-07-17 15:46:05 UTC
Auduin Samson wrote:
I'm kinda barreling past a lot of the discussion here, but I do think the OP is onto something. All T1 skills is a bit rash, but maybe at least a more robust starting skillset would be nice. Something to keep new players interested longer. This would have almost no impact on the game, as these are quick training skills that all experienced players have, but it could mean the difference between a new player staying and quitting because they are frustrated at their inability to accomplish anything early on.

Personally, this what I think a new player should be able to do. The game has a lot of these already, but a few tweaks and additions could make a world of difference to a newbie.

1. Fly a frigate of their starting faction
2. Fly a mining frigate
3. Fit prop mods
4. Fit tank mods
5. Fit whatever weapons their faction uses
6. Use a mining laser

Ideally, all newbie related (IE small, frigate, T1 stuff) non-support skills should start with a character at Level 1 (for example, you can use an afterburner, but you need to buy Acceleration Control before it shines). This way people would be able to quickly try out what they like, figure out where they want to go, and begin specializing right away. Would it give a newbie today a bigger head start than a newbie from a year ago? Yes. It won't, however, kick off balance issues against pilots older than a couple weeks.


you can get all of that in under 1 day of training.

If you cant handle 1 day of training, eve isn't for you.

Art of Explosions
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#151 - 2013-07-17 20:16:19 UTC
I personally think the only "hard" thing for new players is the vast possibilities and what it cost to try the wrong one. Training for a month into something to get a real feel of it and the realising you don't like it at all can be bad for new players. Anybody who played for any decent amount of time know that 1 month is nothing but for a new player, it stills looks like a lot to them and it might be effectively "wasted" in thier eyes. You can get rolling from one mission to another completely unrelated in about a month if you don't amke too many misstakes but I am not sure if there should be an easyer way to "reset" for new players. It's not really a matter of being fair tbh but more of perception. A month of training being re-allocated differently is nothing in the grand scheme of things but might means a lot to a new guy who didn't even have someone to hold his hand when he started. This is something I could be backing if CCP ever decided it should improve the new player experience.

Giving free SP to make people able to use everything only push the problem a bit further. They can use T1 but they will want to use T2 or bigger ships possibly again leading them in the wrong path but with bigger skill leaned before they actaully see if they like it or not.
Geoffrey Rose
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#152 - 2013-07-17 22:26:49 UTC
I have the complete opposite reaction. I come from EQ and am used to having to work hard for everything. I love this game (have only been here a few days) and love the fact that it will take a long time to get the "good stuff." I'm glad that people quit after a month; they can go back to WoW and Easyville as far as I'm concerned - good riddance! I hope they don't ever change this aspect of the game.
Trytiped Austin
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#153 - 2013-07-18 14:23:25 UTC
Im new and finally understand the skill system I find this skill system very useful I work fulltime and sont have months to grind like I did when I played WoW I like the one up idea it adds allot of competition you can catch up with those who have been playing for a while may take a couple years but still better then grinding with 12 year olds who have no idea what their doing.
Chi'Nane T'Kal
Interminatus
#154 - 2013-07-18 14:32:39 UTC
Geoffrey Rose wrote:
they can go back to [...] Easyville as far as I'm concerned


It's really weird, the EVE community must be the only gaming community out there that considers patience THE predominant virtue when it comes to overcoming obstacles that would define a video game as hard.

That's the only logical explanation why people that wish for a greater impact of intelligence or actual gaming skill are constantly referred to supposedly easier games like WoW.
RavenPaine
RaVeN Alliance
#155 - 2013-07-18 15:54:06 UTC
Chi'Nane T'Kal wrote:


It's really weird, the EVE community must be the only gaming community out there that considers patience THE predominant virtue when it comes to overcoming obstacles that would define a video game as hard.

Stuff about 'Impact of intelligence'




The EVE community is is saying that patience is required, and it shouldn't be bought, traded for, or skipped past.

They are also saying that impatience is NOT what makes the game hard for most of them. And if impatience is YOUR (insert any player name here) main problem, then you might have picked the wrong game.

I would bet most players would equate patience and intelligence along the same lines. Nobody wants to go 'backwards' on the enlistment criteria for new pilots. Which is what your promoting.
Tibo Paralian
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#156 - 2013-07-18 19:30:49 UTC
Trytiped Austin wrote:
Im new and finally understand the skill system I find this skill system very useful I work fulltime and sont have months to grind like I did when I played WoW I like the one up idea it adds allot of competition you can catch up with those who have been playing for a while may take a couple years but still better then grinding with 12 year olds who have no idea what their doing.


So a couple of years of grind is better than months of grind...
Biff Ekpyrion
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#157 - 2013-07-18 19:40:48 UTC
Chi'Nane T'Kal wrote:


It's really weird, the EVE community must be the only gaming community out there that considers patience THE predominant virtue when it comes to overcoming obstacles that would define a video game as hard.

That's the only logical explanation why people that wish for a greater impact of intelligence or actual gaming skill are constantly referred to supposedly easier games like WoW.


This is exactly the point of this thread.

Well said. I can't really understand it either. The only reason I can think of is the longer you play, the more you benefit from such a system. Veterans will always argue for this system not to change and CCP will wonder why player retention is bad.
Mashie Saldana
V0LTA
OnlyFleets.
#158 - 2013-07-18 20:46:39 UTC
EVE is about choices and consequences, if you decide to spend your time learning to mine you should suck at PVP. The idea of the game is that no one should be able to do everything perfect. It is after all an MMO. As a new player you are encouraged to join a corp to get help and be put to do useful tasks from day one.

I don't see anyone from either Goons nor TEST complaining about the skill system, they are too busy making fun of their enemies with frig/cruiser fleets.

The main problem today is that the skill system isn't deep enough for the veterans. We are quickly crashing in to the skill wall where we simply have no more skills of interest to inject or train. By the end of the month I will have 200 level V skills and in the next year or so there won't be any more subcapital PVP skills in game for me to train...

How to win EVE
Tsukino Stareine
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#159 - 2013-07-18 20:54:25 UTC
Biff Ekpyrion wrote:
Chi'Nane T'Kal wrote:


It's really weird, the EVE community must be the only gaming community out there that considers patience THE predominant virtue when it comes to overcoming obstacles that would define a video game as hard.

That's the only logical explanation why people that wish for a greater impact of intelligence or actual gaming skill are constantly referred to supposedly easier games like WoW.


This is exactly the point of this thread.

Well said. I can't really understand it either. The only reason I can think of is the longer you play, the more you benefit from such a system. Veterans will always argue for this system not to change and CCP will wonder why player retention is bad.



If player retention is bad how has this game grown in subs every year since release Roll?

Art of Explosions
Biff Ekpyrion
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#160 - 2013-07-18 21:11:25 UTC
Tsukino Stareine wrote:


If player retention is bad how has this game grown in subs every year since release Roll?



Fair enough, it may be bad from one perspective and good from another perspective.

That wasn't my point though. My point was that, in my opinion, it would be funnier with an EVE where skilling was made faster by actively doing something instead of simply waiting.

You don't have to agree though, and I'll end my participation of this thread here. One thing must be said about EVE though, it has a nice and mature tone of discussion compared to many other gaming communities, and for that, I tip my hat.