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War Declaration System - This needs to change
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Lord Whisker
NetFlix Whilst Playing Eve
#1 - 2013-07-12 21:46:00 UTC
Hi

Since 03 the war dec system has had tiny changes implemented to it. Not one of these changes, has done enough. Each time, the empire griefer alliances, find ways around this and then declare war on anyone and everyone.

This is a for instance - My corp is 2 rl friends with mining alts. We don't speak to anyone else in game, we don't talk in local and we very rarely speak in trade channels, we are very careful to others feelings.

Yet today, we received a war dec from "The Marmite Collective" - Now, i then contacted there CEO to point out the pointlessness of this war dec. He responded with abuse and demanding 1.5billion ISK to end the war. Now, i then happend to do a little digging on Empire "merc" alliances

Marmite
wh0res
German freakshow
The truth sumthing

I then started looking through there "contracts" i.e people who they were declaring war on. It would seem every day they declare war on 10-20 new corps and alliances. I then contacted some old friends and did a bit of thinking.

I also then did a bit more research on Null Sec players saying that targets in Null were non existent unless it's fleet on fleet, solo/small gang PvP is rare.

I also happened to come across a HUGE thread about an old alliance called *The Privateers* who did exactly what these "merc" alliances are doing. War deccing everyone and anyone. They (ccp) received so many complaints about teh privateers, they hiked war dec costs, and it eventually disbanded.

My question is this.

Why is there not a limit on PvP corps war dec abilities? Surely there is a fine line between "mechanics" and "griefing" - It seems to me that these "merc alliances" are nothing more than modern day Privateer based alliances.

I did a little more digging and found out that these alliances are responsible for hundreds of players quitting eve, hundreds of corps disbanding (especially pve corps). Yet CCP continues to do nothing.

I believe that alliances should be limited to 5 active war decs per alliance and 3 active war decs per corp.

because as of right now, there 4 alliances i mentioned, have a staggering amount of war decs between them, there not merc contracts, there just war deccing anyone and everyone.

My corp is prime example. a 2 man corp with 8 alts has been decced for no reason. Rendering us, unable to play eve for 7-14 days. Simply because they can. I simply dont understand why alliances are allowed to war dec 100's of corps/alliances - Just to get kills when we have such a lot of null sec available for this kind of PvP.

Something has to change
Iudicium Vastus
Doomheim
#2 - 2013-07-12 22:35:31 UTC
Yeah, had that problem plenty of times myself and the corp. But you just adapt. With such a small group you and your friends are, you can just drop corp and it nullifies the war, making the griefing mercs wasting all that money for nothing. =D

Wash. Rinse. Repeat if they do it again. Or keep the corp going, but play on noobcorp alts that you may already use for hauling and such, keeping the in-corp characters docked until a week has passed. Common thing to do is also drop corp, but have the corp maintain a semi-public channel for those not in-corp to conduct business and stay in group communications with at all times, just like normal.

But that being said, the wardec system does need some revamping. Big time. Far too easy for highsec merc griefing with no counters besides methods I mentioned above. One detail I'd suggest is an increasing dec-cost the longer the war goes. Pay for one week to dec a corp, but then that second week is twice the last, then the third week is twice that second week and so on.

Anyhow, It's also pretty easy to avoid these sorts of guys even if under dec. They're hisec pussies who only operate in hisec to be under protection of CONCORD themselves. If you notice, even Whores in Space make clear in their thread/ad here (in C&P) that they don't operate or go after targets in low/null. In addition, these hisec mercs are also lazy as ****, just camping the trade hubs and nearby routes to pop indies as they try to haul in/out or do anything on market. Depending on where you are, you can still do anything in quiet corners of constellations, never seeing a WT, and just use non-corp alts to do the hub hauling back and forth.

But yeah, just adapt and operate in ways it makes them waste that isk. And laugh.

[u]Nerf stabs/cloaks in FW?[/u] No, just.. -Fit more points -Fit faction points -Bring a friend or two with points (an alt is fine too)
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#3 - 2013-07-12 22:38:18 UTC

WoW......

1.) A wardec does not mean you cannot play EvE. A wardec means you cannot play EvE the same way you have been playing and expect a peaceful existences. This is a good thing, even if it is an inconvenience.

2.) Why are you in a player corp/alliance? When you join one, you get extra benefits: Shared Corp Hangar in stations with an office, shared NPC standings, the ability to operate a POS, player controlled tax rates, and more. You also get some drawbacks: Someone can sabotage your corp (AWOXers, Corp Thiefs) and your corp may experience the reprieve of Concord protection should another entity officially attacked you (war decs). This is fairly balanced, especially since you can drop corp immediately should you find the drawbacks not worth the conveniences.

3.) What is wrong with privateering wardecs? If I can wardec you to profit from the assets you have in space, if I can wardec you to nab your lunch money, what is wrong with that? This is a dystopia, and there are no adults to protect you from the bullies. You either run away, hide, give in, or fight.

4.) Regardless of the fact you haven't explained why it's so "terrible" that these corps ahve 20 wardecs or what not, your arbitrary limits are terrible. Do you know why they wardec so many corps at once? Because pilots can evade wardecs without consequence, and with the utmost ease. So, your limits simply result in them not having any targets whatsoever, essentially ruining their game play. And they are doing EvE a great service by actually instigating conflict, which is one of the primary drivers of conflict in EvE!
HiddenPorpoise
Jarlhettur's Drop
United Federation of Conifers
#4 - 2013-07-12 22:49:33 UTC
I consider the merc corps a wonderful evil, remember everytime you get blown up atleast 5 null freighters go down because tracking wars is far too hard.

War costs went up because they were basically getting easy mining disruption for free; not because they were exploiting anything in the game.

And war deccing a mining corp isn't exactly pointless. Taking good mining systems with force just makes sense and poorly programmed bots and stupid people are lumps of good loot.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#5 - 2013-07-12 22:52:43 UTC
Iudicium Vastus wrote:
Yeah, had that problem plenty of times myself and the corp. But you just adapt. With such a small group you and your friends are, you can just drop corp and it nullifies the war, making the griefing mercs wasting all that money for nothing. =D

Wash. Rinse. Repeat if they do it again. Or keep the corp going, but play on noobcorp alts that you may already use for hauling and such, keeping the in-corp characters docked until a week has passed. Common thing to do is also drop corp, but have the corp maintain a semi-public channel for those not in-corp to conduct business and stay in group communications with at all times, just like normal.

But that being said, the wardec system does need some revamping. Big time. Far too easy for highsec merc griefing with no counters besides methods I mentioned above. One detail I'd suggest is an increasing dec-cost the longer the war goes. Pay for one week to dec a corp, but then that second week is twice the last, then the third week is twice that second week and so on.

Anyhow, It's also pretty easy to avoid these sorts of guys even if under dec. They're hisec pussies who only operate in hisec to be under protection of CONCORD themselves. If you notice, even Whores in Space make clear in their thread/ad here (in C&P) that they don't operate or go after targets in low/null. In addition, these hisec mercs are also lazy as ****, just camping the trade hubs and nearby routes to pop indies as they try to haul in/out or do anything on market. Depending on where you are, you can still do anything in quiet corners of constellations, never seeing a WT, and just use non-corp alts to do the hub hauling back and forth.

But yeah, just adapt and operate in ways it makes them waste that isk. And laugh.


I totally agree that the Wardec system needs some work, but it should also be addressed from the opposite side:

Right now, it is trivially easy to evade a wardec. You can instantly drop corp, costing them the wardec fees while you safely harvest roids from an NPC or Alt corp.

In the end, there is a dichotomy between the aggressors and the victims. One group wants to be left alone, and the other group wants to be free to attack them, and both deserve to have a place to operate!

Frankly, you don't get to carebear in peace & complete safety, but there should be a balance to prevent you from getting griefed out of the game.
Derath Ellecon
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#6 - 2013-07-12 23:32:10 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Frankly, you don't get to carebear in peace & complete safety, but there should be a balance to prevent you from getting griefed out of the game.



Yea, called NPC corps. If all you do is mine, then the 10% tax doesnt affect much anyhow. Maybe on the bounties from belt rats you kill...
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#7 - 2013-07-13 00:03:40 UTC
Derath Ellecon wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Frankly, you don't get to carebear in peace & complete safety, but there should be a balance to prevent you from getting griefed out of the game.



Yea, called NPC corps. If all you do is mine, then the 10% tax doesnt affect much anyhow. Maybe on the bounties from belt rats you kill...


Frankly, this should be remedied.

I'd like all corps to have the ability to set tax rates on market orders, refining cuts, LP's, and basically most sources of income. Then give NPC corps a default 10%ish tax on all these income streams!
Fishymonster
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#8 - 2013-07-13 00:50:22 UTC
But then how will I practice elite pvp? LOL

There are too many people that enjoy ruining someone elses day (they call it farming your tears) for any discussion about war mechanics to go anywhere other then "working as intended."

Just do what others have said, drop corp and ignore them. If they feel like that is too easy, but deny that war-deccing is not, go ahead and ignore their opinions. The only ones that will end up losing are the ones that paid CONCORD some iskies for wardeccing.
Arya Regnar
Darwins Right Hand
#9 - 2013-07-13 01:03:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Arya Regnar
OP is in the wrong game.

Sorry for potentially chasing a carebear from your game CCP.

This is no place for peaceful hippies especially not in PLAYER CORPORATIONS.
Drop the corp and be a wuss in NPC corp or man the f up.
This so called marmite pays 3.5+ billions every week to wardec all these corporations.

You think merc work is free?

If you want to be safe go to nullsec and hide in providence with CVA or use NPC corp.
Or spit out the isk and pay up.
-1 to this entire thread. (except for Gizz, that guy actually knows what he's talking about)

EvE-Mail me if you need anything.
Iudicium Vastus
Doomheim
#10 - 2013-07-13 01:17:51 UTC
Arya Regnar wrote:
OP is in the wrong game.

Sorry for potentially chasing a carebear from your game CCP.

This is no place for peaceful hippies especially not in PLAYER CORPORATIONS.
Drop the corp and be a wuss in NPC corp or man the f up.
This so called marmite pays 3.5+ billions every week to wardec all these corporations.

You think merc work is free?

If you want to be safe go to nullsec and hide in providence with CVA or use NPC corp.
Or spit out the isk and pay up.
-1 to this entire thread. (except for Gizz, that guy actually knows what he's talking about)


Bold is the portion I wanted to most emphasize as being a bit glass house. How about these merc corps man the f up and take come contracts to hit named targets in low/null. Or at least simply chase a random WT into low. I've evaded many of these guys in the past by simply jumping into a lowsec system while they were pursuing. Once I got merely 1 jump into low, the chase ended. Now why is that? These leet pvp mercs afraid of leaving concord patrolled space?

[u]Nerf stabs/cloaks in FW?[/u] No, just.. -Fit more points -Fit faction points -Bring a friend or two with points (an alt is fine too)
Fishymonster
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#11 - 2013-07-13 01:18:07 UTC
Arya Regnar wrote:
OP is in the wrong game.

Sorry for potentially chasing a carebear from your game CCP.

This is no place for peaceful hippies especially not in PLAYER CORPORATIONS.
Drop the corp and be a wuss in NPC corp or man the f up.
This so called marmite pays 3.5+ billions every week to wardec all these corporations.

You think merc work is free?

If you want to be safe go to nullsec and hide in providence with CVA or use NPC corp.
Or spit out the isk and pay up.
-1 to this entire thread. (except for Gizz, that guy actually knows what he's talking about)


This game is a sandbox, it isn't your place or anyone elses to tell others how to play the game, especially just because it doesn't agree with your opinions.
Derath Ellecon
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#12 - 2013-07-13 01:33:14 UTC
Arya Regnar wrote:
OP is in the wrong game.

Sorry for potentially chasing a carebear from your game CCP.

This is no place for peaceful hippies especially not in PLAYER CORPORATIONS.
Drop the corp and be a wuss in NPC corp or man the f up.
This so called marmite pays 3.5+ billions every week to wardec all these corporations.

You think merc work is free?

If you want to be safe go to nullsec and hide in providence with CVA or use NPC corp.
Or spit out the isk and pay up.
-1 to this entire thread. (except for Gizz, that guy actually knows what he's talking about)


Hey, I knew what I was talking about...
Arya Regnar
Darwins Right Hand
#13 - 2013-07-13 02:19:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Arya Regnar
Iudicium Vastus wrote:
Arya Regnar wrote:
OP is in the wrong game.

Sorry for potentially chasing a carebear from your game CCP.

This is no place for peaceful hippies especially not in PLAYER CORPORATIONS.
Drop the corp and be a wuss in NPC corp or man the f up.
This so called marmite pays 3.5+ billions every week to wardec all these corporations.

You think merc work is free?

If you want to be safe go to nullsec and hide in providence with CVA or use NPC corp.
Or spit out the isk and pay up.
-1 to this entire thread. (except for Gizz, that guy actually knows what he's talking about)


Bold is the portion I wanted to most emphasize as being a bit glass house. How about these merc corps man the f up and take come contracts to hit named targets in low/null. Or at least simply chase a random WT into low. I've evaded many of these guys in the past by simply jumping into a lowsec system while they were pursuing. Once I got merely 1 jump into low, the chase ended. Now why is that? These leet pvp mercs afraid of leaving concord patrolled space?

See the part where I said to go to providence? Deep nullsec is far safer than highsec if you are wardecced. Because everyone can attack everyone and in nullsec and unless you can dock you can't repair ships, change fits or simply hide (exception is cloak).

Providence in this case is place where everyone is peaceful hippies that dock up as soon as any red appears in the system. You also have those handy intel channels where they instantly report any reds. It's too easy because of locals.

EvE-Mail me if you need anything.
supernova ranger
The End of Eternity
#14 - 2013-07-13 05:35:05 UTC
Stop trolling carebears.

Yes they can be annoying because they won't fight you and drop corp but it has to be accepted for the game to exist that some people prefer PVE to PVP.

Additionally most wars atm are being used to exploit inexperienced players and the aggressors can never be found to fight with in situations other then when they are prearranged. This screws your opportunities to fight carebears because they see chasing you randomly as a pointless and fruitless endeavor that is likely to end up in station game which in turn makes them ignore you or drop corp...
Lord Whisker
NetFlix Whilst Playing Eve
#15 - 2013-07-13 09:58:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Lord Whisker
Arya Regnar wrote:
OP is in the wrong game.

Sorry for potentially chasing a carebear from your game CCP.

This is no place for peaceful hippies especially not in PLAYER CORPORATIONS.
Drop the corp and be a wuss in NPC corp or man the f up.
This so called marmite pays 3.5+ billions every week to wardec all these corporations.

You think merc work is free?

If you want to be safe go to nullsec and hide in providence with CVA or use NPC corp.
Or spit out the isk and pay up.
-1 to this entire thread. (except for Gizz, that guy actually knows what he's talking about)


Quite clearly a merc corp alt.

You have no right, under any circumstances to tell me how to play a game i pay to play. If i want to PvE i should be allowed to. Why should me and my rl friend hide in an NPC corp with 11% tax rate? Higher than 98% of the corps in game? You won't have an answer other than the usual:

L2P
HTFU
GTFO
MAN THE F-UP
Go back to wow
Go play runescape

The same rubbish insults people have been spouting since Curse Alliance in 03.

It is simply rubbish mechanics. Which is exploited by people farming to get plexes and these so called mercs, gtfo, i was in MC for 2 years. I know what a mercenary corp is, i know what a mercenary alliance is, and these so called "mercs" are not mercs, there are cowards who are to scared to go to null sec and low sec and look for a fight because they cannot run to a station and hide when it starts going the wrong way.

We forced the entire north in MC to caputalte with 20 caps and a 150 man RR bs fleet. So don't tell me i don't know how to PvP

So don't spout the usual tripe if you cannot contribute to an intelligent discussion.
brinelan
#16 - 2013-07-13 11:41:00 UTC  |  Edited by: brinelan
Lord Whisker wrote:


My corp is prime example. a 2 man corp with 8 alts has been decced for no reason. Rendering us, unable to play eve for 7-14 days. Simply because they can. I simply dont understand why alliances are allowed to war dec 100's of corps/alliances - Just to get kills when we have such a lot of null sec available for this kind of PvP.

Something has to change


lol nobody said you can't play.. just get in to some cheap pvp ships and go fight. This is a pvp game so go have some pvp fun. The less you fight back the more this will happen.
Derath Ellecon
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#17 - 2013-07-13 11:50:56 UTC
Lord Whisker wrote:
You have no right, under any circumstances to tell me how to play a game i pay to play. If i want to PvE i should be allowed to. Why should me and my rl friend hide in an NPC corp with 11% tax rate? Higher than 98% of the corps in game?


Yes you sound like you have been in this game for awhile, so you should know by now EVE is all about choices and consequences.

You wish to choose to play the way you want, PVE anytime in high sec. Yes the consequence is pay the 11% tax and stay in an NPC corp.
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#18 - 2013-07-13 14:31:55 UTC
Lord Whisker wrote:
You have no right, under any circumstances to tell me how to play a game i pay to play. If i want to PvE i should be allowed to.

And you are. Because this IS a sandbox after all. The problem however is that this is a MULTIPLAYER sandbox which means that while you can do whatever you want, so can everyone else.

Ad arbitrary restrictions won't work. They never do. People will find ways around them (ex. make extra "shell" corps and have them declare the maximum amount of wars they are allowed... the mercs will hop around between the various corps and attack without warning).

And btw... someone suggested that war dec costs rise per week they are active? They already do. Like... they double each week.

Lord Whisker wrote:
Why should me and my rl friend hide in an NPC corp with 11% tax rate?

You don't have to. It's just an option you have with a penalty attached to it (in the form of the tax).

How did you Veterans start?
Lord Whisker
NetFlix Whilst Playing Eve
#19 - 2013-07-13 14:51:26 UTC
Derath Ellecon wrote:
Lord Whisker wrote:
You have no right, under any circumstances to tell me how to play a game i pay to play. If i want to PvE i should be allowed to. Why should me and my rl friend hide in an NPC corp with 11% tax rate? Higher than 98% of the corps in game?


Yes you sound like you have been in this game for awhile, so you should know by now EVE is all about choices and consequences.

You wish to choose to play the way you want, PVE anytime in high sec. Yes the consequence is pay the 11% tax and stay in an NPC corp.





I know ofc, but, that doesn't mean the mechanic doesn't need to change.

My point is that EvE has found it's stride and now, tbfh, we need to bring more players in.

But, that being said, we need to sort out how the game represents to newer players and how many players have been driven out by alliances like Marmite. 20 of them running backwards and forwards from Amar to Jita with a ton of neutral scouts.

It's not war, it's not pvp, it's slaughter. I challenged 1 to a 1v1. He accepted, soon as i shot him at a SS, he left fleet n i got jumped by 12 of them.

It's just stupid.
Derath Ellecon
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#20 - 2013-07-13 18:10:40 UTC
Lord Whisker wrote:

I know ofc, but, that doesn't mean the mechanic doesn't need to change.


You are right. It doesn't need to change. As it stands the current system makes starting a war the most expensive it has ever been. And mechanics allow those in the war to jump ship faster and easier than ever.

Otherwise wars were designed to work the way they do.

Lord Whisker wrote:
My point is that EvE has found it's stride and now, tbfh, we need to bring more players in.


And by every metric you look at EVE has had a slow and steady growth over its entire 10 years. Yes some dips but overall growth.

Lord Whisker wrote:
But, that being said, we need to sort out how the game represents to newer players and how many players have been driven out by alliances like Marmite. 20 of them running backwards and forwards from Amar to Jita with a ton of neutral scouts.


As a harsh and unforgiving universe, full of scammers, backstabbers, thieves? The kind where trust actually means something? Pretty sure they do that pretty good already.
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