Wormholes

In my opinion they're not. You can easily see if something is OP if the use of them extends past their intended role or if no other ship can fill the role. In the case of cloaky T3's their role is "booster", "scout", and heavy tackle.

In terms of scout or heavy tackle I don't see the T3's being over powered. They seem just right to me. In terms of booster they are prevalent but not the "only choice".



who the **** are Chitsa and James? Surely they the only two eve online players worth listening to.

The nominated CSM wormhole representatives... They're not the authority on everything wormhole related but their opinion and activity certainly matters.

Geez, none of this was a comparison of 0.0 to WH space. It was simply trying to make the statment that if T3's were the OP "IWIN" button of EVE, why don't 0.0 alliances just fly T3 fleets exclusively.

Jack already pointed out the most flippin obvious thing already..

Remove T3's abilities to do the Armor brawl that they do now and Faction BC and Command ships will be the next thing to be used. wormholes encourage close range brawling by their very nature. If you jump into a gang that is simply sniping at you. you either fix a warpin on top of them or simply blueball them out of sheer boredom.

So what happens when everyone is using Bc and CMD. Well they have less utility for starters so less ewar options to play with, less ways to deal with guardians means more sheer dps focus to simply overcome guardian reps. Where now T3 allow plenty of ewar options for overcoming or confussling guardians enough to get kills through logi. I understand that you guys want to be able to range and kite everything in wormholes and transfer your tactic versus the nullsec idiots that run straight into them to wormholes. Truth is 99% of entities will simply just jump back through the wormhole and say **** chasing that.
your not going to get what you want in wormholes regarding of how much you wish you could....

Back on BC and CMD, they have twice the sig so your looking at Dreads basically becoming twice as OP as they are now. Funny thing with the example given about the smaller unit standign up versus larger number with just 1/2 dreads. that is a nice example of a small unit utilizing a homefield advantage. However that tactic doesn't scale well. To beat it you simply need more flippin numbers then the opposing side. You need to be able to neutralize their web in some way orthe Dread itself, which means more and more numbers. And once you start talking about multiple dreads on field you need even larger numbers to beat it.

Unless the enemy is acting pure stupid Dread's give you a insane advantage and can't be beaten by a gang the same size which by itself promotes "blobbing" the enemy. Massive amounts of capitals is is why invasions now require hundreds of people and logistically burn out the people doing them. They are the main reason why Wspace got as static as it did.

But back to the T3 arguments. Sure T3 can do a lot of things well. Hauler,CovOpTackler or Brawler. Point is they are used for this because the nature of Wh space promotes it. Remove them and people will only ever use the second best option and so forth and so forth.
Personally I think the interdiction subsystem is OP and wouldn't mind seeing it removed or seeing the Cov Op subsystem Kill the DPS on the ships. In that regard I do think they are a bit OP as they encroach on Recons (Bit biased here as they are my alltime fav ship)

The main problem I see is that unless T3 does something Very Well then why ever use them. Every tactic in eve has always leaned towards multiples of one ship that does one thing the best. I can not ever remember a tactic that relied on a ship that was a jack of all trades but worst at everything. If someone else does please give me a example. I'll list the counter ones I can name off the cuff here

Vagabond blob (best speed) - We used to **** BS fleets 5 times our size with these, fuckall dps per vaga but bring enough and they raped all while not even needing logi to tank all.

Vaga + Ishtar Nano Blob (Best speed coupled with best applied alpha dps)

Zealot Ahac blob (Best armor tank with guards)
Abbadon sniper Blob
ArtyBaddon
Drake Blob
Tengu Blob
Hurricane blob

All of these and many before them had one thing in common, they were the best at their task so why ever use anything else.
Unless CCP uniforms every race this will always be the case.

What you see in EvE is People find the ship that is best at its role and then use greater and greater numbers of that one ship. ever Play a fighting game versus that one guy that is using the one character that has a certain combo that almost no characters can block, or been that guy :P It's the same flippin thing human nature.

At least T3 by their nature in wormholes promotes the usage of ewar/tactics to win fights over equal or superior numbers whereupon the second best options promotes tons and tons of dps. I'll take fights based upon the former then the latter any flippin day.

As to the "spread our blob into smaller blobs to not get alphaed by your guys" comment below .... Is this a serious comment or some sort of ironic self troll ?? Please tell me it's the latter =)

One more comment to add.

I think the unformity in fitting T3 fleets could do well with some imaginative input. I hope we(NoHo) can provide this going forwards =)

Also Mezzoroz Supercaps SHOULD be easier to kill then ANY blob of anything. No Ship in EvE should be a solopwnsmobile. So nice to hear that CCP seems to have got that right.

Its not an ironic example, it is a poorly informed example. We used nano fleet tactics against "large" WH groups back in the day when 100 to 150 pilots in a corp / alliance was a "large" group. Second, many of those "large" groups did not have a full T3 fleet but rather a rag tag fleet sprinkled with T3s. Thirdly, our nano tactics worked well in an age when shield fleets were more popular, Tengus ruled the sky and very few pilots were trained for Loki or Proteus. All that is gone, a nano fleet cannot hold a candle to a T3 fleet in w-space, Lokis will web out to 50km (optimal range of a nano Talos) and Proteus can point to an insane distance. Not to mention that a nano fleet will get messed up on the initial warp in with the HIC bubble up.

And yeah we ended up with T3 as our ships of choice, why wouldn't we? EvE is all about "adopt or die" mentality and we don't like dying.

Sad day indeed for EVE...

James, remember most of the world thought the world was flat at one time. Turns out they were wrong. I'm beginning to think many EVE players would have been 'flat earth' types!!

If asked the question, what is the best ship type (comp) in wh space? If the answer is clear (it is really, bring t3's with guardian support) in most situations, then it is a problem. Are you saying they should nerf t3' to the ground? Of course not, but making more comps viable and talking about it doesn't seem bad at all. For instance the geddon didn't get nerfed, but "rebalanced". t3's are trickier I admit, but fleet comps are becoming somewhat bland in WH's.

As I said before, I use t3's almost exclusively, so I am not pitching from the other side of the fence.

An area that is very risky to play with, is the mass of the t3's. The main advantage of t3 in wh's is actually is their dps/tank/utility per mass ratio. I think the subsystems should add or decrease mass. That way you don't mess with their dps tank etc.. directly.

Advantages:

1- Easier to balance (arguably) than changing the dps, tank, sig etc...

2- Will affect their usage in WH space mostly, where they are deemed, also arguably, to be overused (or overpowered).

3- Through this change the other 70% of the subsystems could become a little more useful, without a complete overhaul of their bonuses.

4- Using more fleet comps and more ship types.

Disadvantages:

1- The balance could be borked and their usage goes down to almost zero.

2- It will affect speed of the ship, and could be tricky to balance.

3- defenders will now get even a bigger home field advantage.

This is just a contribution and not a fully fleshed out idea, and not something I am saying needs to happen now, or is a "great" idea by any measure. I might be wrong here.

On another note, I don't see the point of name calling, and calling someone out for his bad English. It serves no purpose but to diminish the discussion at hand.

More flexible doctrines?What other doctrine is there besides armour blob?

Slightly more tanked armour blob? Slightly more dps armour blob? Cloaky armour blob?

This thread is going places.

/me like

Before they nerfed TEs you could do a wanabbe shield adrestia fit on a prot, with the pointless nerf to TEs you can't hold the range needed and get the dps at that range needed to make it at all worthwhile tho.