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AFK Cloaking Collection Thread

First post First post
Author
Erutpar Ambient
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#521 - 2013-07-10 02:10:09 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
... ...


Yes the sig is ignorant. What's the difference between being cloaked and being docked?
With a covertops ship you can target directly, you can warp around and collect intel, you can warp next to someone and cyno, you can shoot them or tackle them. A regular cloak is similar to docking up without the services, but you can cloak anywhere you want to, you don't have to load your ship in space and instead of being camped on the undock hostiles have no idea where you will uncloak.There's a lot of difference between being docked and being cloaked. A post like that is ignorant of the differences between docking and cloaking.

Not really sure what your 3 parties involved in this issue are. Please explain.

The situation is not balanced, the cloaker has the upper hand. Especially in the case of the CovertOps cloak. A covertops cloak can warp around and assess threat without being put in any kind of danger. The player can choose whether to engage or not. If they choose not, then they can just go afk and leave their ship in space perfectly safe from hostility until they come back later to assess threat again and decided if they can safely engage. Setting a trap can be done, but more than likely the Cloaker is going to get spooked and decided to come back later when everyone gives up. Eve is not like real life. We can't have people sitting around 24/7 waiting for something to happen because this is a game and they'll get bored and log off. All the defenders can do is either dock up, wait for them to choose to act, or relocate. But sometimes relocation doesn't work either.

By undetected i mean that the target doesn't know it's being targeted. The target does obviously know there's a possibility of hostility but the hostility is not detected until it happens.

And yes i realize there could be other mechanics for intel gathering. But as of current there arn't.

Saying everyone in a system is safe from a cloaked hostile because "they can't do anything until it decloaks" is the same as saying that everyone is safe from a hostile ship in a system because they can't shoot until they activate their turrets. And yes we know clone jumping to lost stations is a safe way to be safe (-_-);;

And starmap is to a hostile as local is to a defender. The only difference here is that the defender doesn't benefit from starmap data the way a hostile does with local. Except in the case that they want to counter attack with their own cloaky camper/blops hot drops.
Nyancat Audeles
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#522 - 2013-07-10 03:27:30 UTC
Oh gee! God forbid a covert ops ship with a COVERT cloak actually try to stay COVERT!

The tears in this thread are incredible. Not all of EvE is "hurrrr durrr I can't shoot it so it must be OP". If you want to fight covops recon use your own intelligence and reconnaissance tactics.
Erutpar Ambient
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#523 - 2013-07-10 05:08:55 UTC
Nyancat Audeles wrote:
Oh gee! God forbid a covert ops ship with a COVERT cloak actually try to stay COVERT!

The tears in this thread are incredible. Not all of EvE is "hurrrr durrr I can't shoot it so it must be OP". If you want to fight covops recon use your own intelligence and reconnaissance tactics.


There are no tears here. What i said is true.

You're counter argument is incredibly insightful. "if you can't beat it, join it" is what you said.

If the only way to beat a ship is to use the same ship, then something is wrong. And in this case you still can't beat it!

A Covert Ops Cloak is too perfect of Intel. Not only can you see who's in space, but you can see what they're flying and where they are then you can attack them if they're not a threat to you. All of this while being perfectly safe from harm.

That far outweighs Local does it not?
TheGunslinger42
All Web Investigations
#524 - 2013-07-10 09:47:32 UTC
Erutpar Ambient wrote:
Nyancat Audeles wrote:
Oh gee! God forbid a covert ops ship with a COVERT cloak actually try to stay COVERT!

The tears in this thread are incredible. Not all of EvE is "hurrrr durrr I can't shoot it so it must be OP". If you want to fight covops recon use your own intelligence and reconnaissance tactics.


There are no tears here. What i said is true.

You're counter argument is incredibly insightful. "if you can't beat it, join it" is what you said.

If the only way to beat a ship is to use the same ship, then something is wrong. And in this case you still can't beat it!

A Covert Ops Cloak is too perfect of Intel. Not only can you see who's in space, but you can see what they're flying and where they are then you can attack them if they're not a threat to you. All of this while being perfectly safe from harm.

That far outweighs Local does it not?


No it doesn't. At best, it puts it on equal footing with local.

Honestly, I can't understand why the bears think cloaks are unfair or overpowered.
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#525 - 2013-07-10 13:56:05 UTC
TheGunslinger42 wrote:
Erutpar Ambient wrote:
There are no tears here. What i said is true.

You're counter argument is incredibly insightful. "if you can't beat it, join it" is what you said.

If the only way to beat a ship is to use the same ship, then something is wrong. And in this case you still can't beat it!

A Covert Ops Cloak is too perfect of Intel. Not only can you see who's in space, but you can see what they're flying and where they are then you can attack them if they're not a threat to you. All of this while being perfectly safe from harm.

That far outweighs Local does it not?


No it doesn't. At best, it puts it on equal footing with local.

Honestly, I can't understand why the bears think cloaks are unfair or overpowered.

TheGunslinger42's statement is supported by facts.

Local creates a means to know intel that is neither earned or requiring meaningful effort.
Intel, as you should already know, allows us to make decisions and consequently take actions using available assets.

In a system where player pilots already have safe spots, and ISK earning locations, this is overpowering. The ISK earning locations are deliberately NOT intended to be safe spots, as that is zero risk.
ISK earning is designed to have inherent competition involved.
With local and a few mind numbingly simple preparations, however, the ISK earning locations can be left for the safe spots based on local intel alone.
This makes them effectively the same, which for many objective minds makes them overpowered.

Yes, they can certainly be safe, noone disputes that, but having this ability for so little effort denies the very risk that justifies the reputation of the area, as well as the reward index which is based off of that.
Competition defines that they need to make an effort, which can be matched or beaten by those seeking to destroy them or acquire these desired ISK valued items.

Guess what? The devs know they can't be caught. Guess what they did?
They made ice belts limited availability. A fix comparable to a patch to reduce the amount of income generated by PvE players effectively impossible to expose to risk otherwise.

High sec already has no high end ice, now null sec has less than it did before. If this persists, the difference between these areas will be meaningless, or worse, high sec will be more risky and as a result have better rewards.

No, trading in a station is not free of PvP either, so do not attempt that point. When you trade in a station, you are competing against those who trade similar goods, and against those wanting to pay the least possible for these goods.
Being shot at is the least form of competition involving ISK, since the exchange and possible loss of ISK happens in the markets and trades above all else.
Teckos Pech
Patriotic Tendencies
Goonswarm Federation
#526 - 2013-07-11 21:36:29 UTC
Erutpar Ambient wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
... ...


Yes the sig is ignorant. What's the difference between being cloaked and being docked?
With a covertops ship you can target directly, you can warp around and collect intel, you can warp next to someone and cyno, you can shoot them or tackle them.


Yes, but in all those instances the ship is vulnerable. Roll

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Teckos Pech
Patriotic Tendencies
Goonswarm Federation
#527 - 2013-07-11 21:39:18 UTC
Erutpar Ambient wrote:

Not really sure what your 3 parties involved in this issue are. Please explain.


I already have, you just weren't paying attention.

Side 1: PvE pilots complaining about the OP nature of cloaks.
Side 2: PvP pilots who prefer the status quo.
Side 3: Players that recognize there is a significant game balance issue that goes beyond simply "ZOMG cloaks are an I win butan!!!!!!"

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Teckos Pech
Patriotic Tendencies
Goonswarm Federation
#528 - 2013-07-11 21:48:12 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Eterne
Teckos Pech
Patriotic Tendencies
Goonswarm Federation
#529 - 2013-07-11 22:02:43 UTC
Jesus Christ...is there something about July?

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Erutpar Ambient
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#530 - 2013-07-12 05:13:26 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Erutpar Ambient wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
... ...


Yes the sig is ignorant. What's the difference between being cloaked and being docked?
With a covertops ship you can target directly, you can warp around and collect intel, you can warp next to someone and cyno, you can shoot them or tackle them.


Yes, but in all those instances the ship is vulnerable. Roll


That's true, but it's a choice you have. You can either stay cloaked up, or engage. If you're docked up you don't have those choices. Your only choice is to stay docked or undock blindly (unless you have your own cloaked ship sitting outside).

But you see that is what the difference is. Covert Ops Cloak is vastly superior to docking up. Infact some of my corp mates will go covert ops cloak at a safespot while moving instead of docking up to go afk. That way they're not blindsided when leaving a station.

For Docking up to be equal to the power of Covert Ops Cloaking, you'd need to be able to see outside of the station and fly it around until you choose the exact right time to undock onto someone. But then again you're still not cloaked but there's also not the possibility (however minimal it is) to be uncloaked by someone.

Really though, regular cloaks are fine. When you say they can't do anything until they uncloak, that really only applies to a plain cloak. Covert Ops Cloak ships can do anything while cloaked. They're the real reason for all the complaints.

I would be all for removing local if we could get rid of Covert Ops Cloaks. Or at least disallow Covert Ops ships from using warp jamming modules and cynos at the same time as a Covert Ops Cloak. Hell maybe even allow them to use Covert Cynos but limit where you can use them. This way you wouldn't know 10 people jumped into system, but also they wouldn't already be on top of your head either. They'd at least have to warp to you.
Teckos Pech
Patriotic Tendencies
Goonswarm Federation
#531 - 2013-07-12 07:14:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Teckos Pech
Erutpar Ambient wrote:


That's true, but it's a choice you have. You can either stay cloaked up, or engage. If you're docked up you don't have those choices. Your only choice is to stay docked or undock blindly (unless you have your own cloaked ship sitting outside).


Yes, it is a choice. So what? You never know when you uncloak if his friends will show up, or what.

Quote:
But you see that is what the difference is. Covert Ops Cloak is vastly superior to docking up. Infact some of my corp mates will go covert ops cloak at a safespot while moving instead of docking up to go afk. That way they're not blindsided when leaving a station.


So. They also can't access the various station services. Everything has a cost. Your claims to the contrary are false.

Quote:
For Docking up to be equal to the power of Covert Ops Cloaking, you'd need to be able to see outside of the station and fly it around until you choose the exact right time to undock onto someone. But then again you're still not cloaked but there's also not the possibility (however minimal it is) to be uncloaked by someone.


When I am cloaked I can't resupply, I can't repair, I can't upgrade my clone, I can't switch ships, etc. And stop being such a nervous Nelly for crying out loud. You can tell if there is somebody in local, and you have a timer as well when you undock where you are invulnerable so long as you don't activate a module or change direction. You can even stop your ship. So you could get in a ship with a nice tank, undock, look around and if there are bad people waiting on the undock, redock. Heck, I've seen people do it in a pod.

Quote:
Really though, regular cloaks are fine. When you say they can't do anything until they uncloak, that really only applies to a plain cloak. Covert Ops Cloak ships can do anything while cloaked. They're the real reason for all the complaints.


Can ship with a cov ops cloak target? Nope. Activate a cyno? Nope. Activate any module? Nope. Can they reload guns or launchers? No. Can they jump through a gate? Nope. Dock? Nope. They can warp, fly at their max subwarp speed (with no MWD/afterburner), hit dscan, and access the market and science and technology window...the last two you can also do in a regular cloak.

Quote:
I would be all for removing local if we could get rid of Covert Ops Cloaks. Or at least disallow Covert Ops ships from using warp jamming modules and cynos at the same time as a Covert Ops Cloak. Hell maybe even allow them to use Covert Cynos but limit where you can use them. This way you wouldn't know 10 people jumped into system, but also they wouldn't already be on top of your head either. They'd at least have to warp to you.


You are playing the wrong game. This is a game that has substantial levels of risk and uncertainty. Those two things seem to bother you. Move along to another game.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

TheGunslinger42
All Web Investigations
#532 - 2013-07-12 07:51:22 UTC
Since these anti-cloak types are so dead set against having to face any kind of uncertainty or risk, why don't they just go to highsec instead of choosing to live in risky, volatile space?

Are they just that greedy and entitled?
Sura Sadiva
Entropic Tactical Crew
#533 - 2013-07-12 08:33:47 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
They just keep coming....


it's like in Alien 2, they're coming outta the goddamn walls!
Debora Tsung
Perkone
Caldari State
#534 - 2013-07-12 10:59:33 UTC
TheGunslinger42 wrote:
Since these anti-cloak types are so dead set against having to face any kind of uncertainty or risk, why don't they just go to highsec instead of choosing to live in risky, volatile space?

Are they just that greedy and entitled?


But in highsec the evil suicide gankers lurk behind every gate at every belt just waiting for unsuspecting victims to undock... Shocked

Stupidity should be a bannable offense.

Fighting back is more fun than not.

Sticky: AFK Cloaking Thread It's not pretty, but it's there.

Sura Sadiva
Entropic Tactical Crew
#535 - 2013-07-12 11:46:47 UTC
Debora Tsung wrote:
TheGunslinger42 wrote:
Since these anti-cloak types are so dead set against having to face any kind of uncertainty or risk, why don't they just go to highsec instead of choosing to live in risky, volatile space?

Are they just that greedy and entitled?


But in highsec the evil suicide gankers lurk behind every gate at every belt just waiting for unsuspecting victims to undock... Shocked



yeah, HS is an hell of danger... i mean: lots of people there, anyone can enter your system and you canno lock them out. And all these people, what are they doing? Are they AFK or not? You may not be sure! And anyone could be a suicide ganker, no way to know... is impossible to undock in HS, even only logging in is too dangerous.

:)

Sura Sadiva
Entropic Tactical Crew
#536 - 2013-07-12 11:51:53 UTC
Oh and even low sec is not viable, no jokes here, we all know that entering low sec is an automatic death.

So the only option left is WH, but there.. damn, not only the local don't say you if somoene is AFK but you cannot even know if somoene is in your system! How anyone could deal with htis? My alliance rule says "grunts, if any neutral in local: dock and don't move" how can I apply this rule in WH???? there's something wrong in WH to adjust to fit my alleance internal rules.
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#537 - 2013-07-12 14:08:33 UTC
With certainty comes awareness and control.

You know exactly what results are possible, and can limit your exposure to remove any risk you consider not needed for the reaching of your goals.

For such an obvious and simple game, the rewards are small.

In null, as I keep pointing out in multiple areas, they are being reduced.
I made claims that this would happen to rewards in null well in advance of this, and now it has come to pass.

With uncertainty, comes risk.
With risk, specifically in a game intended to be balanced, comes the rewards.

Why do you hate rewards?
Plastic Psycho
Necro-Economics
#538 - 2013-07-12 15:35:13 UTC
Debora Tsung wrote:
TheGunslinger42 wrote:
Since these anti-cloak types are so dead set against having to face any kind of uncertainty or risk, why don't they just go to highsec instead of choosing to live in risky, volatile space?

Are they just that greedy and entitled?


But in highsec the evil suicide gankers lurk behind every gate at every belt just waiting for unsuspecting victims to undock... Shocked

We do our best, but being omni-present is one hell of a challenge.
Erutpar Ambient
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#539 - 2013-07-12 17:28:26 UTC
You guys know what I say is true. Wh space works because of a lot of things. Mostly the reward vs risk ratio but also very much because of the lack of hotdrops. Which again does lower the risk quite a bit without affecting reward. Why do you think people are comforable ratting in dreads? Its because they're not worried about getting plopped on my a gang of supers.

In null sec the vast majority of the reward is in moon goo. Everything else is minimal. The only reason null sec would be considered safer than high sec at any time is because of player interaction. If we wernt able to set blue standing to our neighbors then everyone would be cloaky camping eachother 24/7. The only reason this isn't as rampant of a problem as it could be is because of the massive blueness of null sec.

If every system was camped 24/7 the cost of living in null would far out weigh the benefits.

I'm sure you guys will find a way to disagree with this of course.
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#540 - 2013-07-12 17:46:40 UTC
Erutpar Ambient wrote:
You guys know what I say is true. Wh space works because of a lot of things. Mostly the reward vs risk ratio but also very much because of the lack of hotdrops. Which again does lower the risk quite a bit without affecting reward. Why do you think people are comforable ratting in dreads? Its because they're not worried about getting plopped on my a gang of supers.

In null sec the vast majority of the reward is in moon goo. Everything else is minimal. The only reason null sec would be considered safer than high sec at any time is because of player interaction. If we wernt able to set blue standing to our neighbors then everyone would be cloaky camping eachother 24/7. The only reason this isn't as rampant of a problem as it could be is because of the massive blueness of null sec.

If every system was camped 24/7 the cost of living in null would far out weigh the benefits.

I'm sure you guys will find a way to disagree with this of course.

That last line states the obvious, since your previous statements fly against logic.

WH space could equally be said to work DESPITE the presence of lots of things. Hot drops for example are a laughable example too often quoted by those not considering why hot drops occur in the first place.

It is not that wormholes block them from happening, it is that, in a WH, they have no reason to be used at all.
Logistic asset movement to the target, due to local warning effects, make hot dropping a necessity since a target would flee the moment a hostile population spike appeared.
That's it, the only reason it happens at all.
For titan bridging, (as well as capital ship jumping), a second warning exists that makes it either needed to be outside the system, or right on top of the target, since that screams to everyone in the system: "Something is coming!", that warning is obviously the beacon effect of the cyno.

Only cap ships movements are this obvious, which may or may not be addressed at some point, and have little to do with AFK cloaking directly.

After, will people still drop cap ships? Only so long as they have no means to avoid announcing to the entire system when they enter.
That leaves bringing them in before hand, or dumping the cyno beacon, which like local alerts the whole system.