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Financial Fraud, Cartels, Monopoly, API's and you.

First post First post
Author
voetius
Grundrisse
#81 - 2013-07-10 20:16:52 UTC
Rhodopsin Pserad wrote:
Zaxix wrote:
As I understand it, an API pull on your wallet can't go back much further than a month or so. There's also a total number of lines (transactions?) per pull. So whichever threshold you hit first would be the extent of the pull. That doesn't include contract information though, which is complete and permanent. Everyone can just go put up regional mineral buy orders and obliterate their wallet history. Or wait a bit.

There are other ways to accomplish the same sort of sanitization of ISK as well. For example, if you have Account A that has your really, super true Main on it with billions and billions of ISK, and you want to get ISK to Account B which has your super spai on it, all you need to do is buy a PLEX on Account A, create a temp alt on Account B, transfer the PLEX to the temp alt, the temp alt reverse redeems it to your account, biomass temp alt, super spai redeems PLEX to his hangar and sells it. Super spai tells target corp that he got impatient, bought a GTC with real money and redeemed it for sale and gladly supplies the complete API. Simple. If you want to keep your money sources secret, you can.

But that brings me to corps that insist on keeping the API active. They're the ones you should worry about OP. Because if that corp is big enough and there is some smart programmer involved in the process, they can definitely do what you're suggesting by gathering data over an extended period of time. That kind of data aggregation can yield very powerful information. It may not tell you the Joe Blow has discovered a super secret market for elite drone AI chips (though it might), but it will tell you that you have 6000 people who use X amount of Y item on Z schedule at an average of Q per person. If the data set is large enough, you can begin to use statistical analysis to tease out valuable speculation information. If that corp happens to have access to recruiting data and APIs from other corps, that data set can get pretty big. Plug that into actual market data that is publicly available and it just gets better and better.

Does anyone do this? I have no idea. But it's definitely possible. Given the absurd levels of OCD in the EVE player population, I have to believe that someone, somewhere has at least tried it.


I have no account A with super billions, otherwise I wouldn't be concerned about being muscled out of a game I just started playing by giving away decent profit margins for a noob. I'm thinking I've made about 200-300 mil in the two weeks I've been playing, but most of it is held up in sunk costs and raw assets atm for materials and colonies and the like.

A program like that could be made in a day or less depending on your scripting skill. Unfortunately I'm too lazy to learn iostream.h.

They all tell you not to trust anyone when you join the game and the next thing they tell you is that you need to turn over all information about your character to someone who you don't know at all... I never even did that when I played WoW - can't believe nobody ever told me of this game.


If you only have a few hundred mill, really you shouldn't be worried. If you have 3 digit billions then yeh, like Zaxix says, just wind down all your orders, trash wallet history with region junk buys that will cost you a couple of mill. and move isk to another new account trashing disposble characters. Not really rocket science :)
Rhodopsin Pserad
Ho Theos Geometrei
#82 - 2013-07-10 20:17:13 UTC
Zaxix wrote:
Hmmm. I was trying to be helpful and provide hints as to how you can circumvent the check and still get the benefits of corp membership. All it takes is preplanning to keep your trading wallet secret. Bottom line: if you want to join a corp, you're almost certainly going to have to give out an API. The only solution is to get ahead of the curve and compartmentalize your operations.

This game definitely has a paranoia component (its my favorite part, really), but you have to temper your paranoia with reason. First of all, we all know where you are and if we didn't already know, we could do a locator search on you. Then we could simply watch you to see where you're going and what you're doing. But that's probably unnecessary since you seem to have already told us where you're getting your money: "for materials and colonies and the like." The ways to make ISK are known already. The real money is on the market side and it's unlikely that some noob's sub-billion P.I. operation is worth exploiting. In fact, you're feeding the market that people like [Insert MD Speculator Name Here] are exploiting at a much higher level. That person doesn't have the time or energy to run around managing colonies. And why would they? They have you to do the leg work for them.

The kind of intel that can gained from wallet and contracts would be more useful in the abstract. How many people are doing XYZ? When are they doing it? When are they putting up sell orders? How often do they change them? Do they log in for market updates at a particular time? How many people are holding how much of Item A, which is used to make item B, which will be changing in Winter Release YYYY? That sort of thing.

BTW, if you don't think people will potentially be stalking you, you're not nearly paranoid enough for EVE. Gankers spend a lot of time hunting people who have no clue they're being stalked. If you really want to savor the taste of tinfoil (mmmmm, tinfoil), live your EVE life like someone is always watching you. Pretend you're an American diplomat living in Moscow circa 1975.

edit: also, if you're wondering why it's not enough to just say "oh well, the real spies won't be revealed," I draw your attention to this: http://belligerentundesirables.wordpress.com/2013/03/15/psychotic-monks-safari-guide-v3/


Nobody's getting my Financial API, simple as that. I don't support data miners who exploit video games. If that means I'm uncorped forever, then I'm uncorped.

"Does the Eagle know what is in the pit, Or wilt thou go ask the Mole? Can Wisdom be put in a silver rod, Or Love in a golden bowl?"  "Above all, you can believe in Providence in either of two ways, either as thirst believes in the orange, or as the ass believes in the whip."

Rhodopsin Pserad
Ho Theos Geometrei
#83 - 2013-07-10 20:18:13 UTC
Vanya Virpio wrote:
Rhodopsin Pserad wrote:

I've never so much as shot at another player - don't know why you guys are taking the API data mining thing so personally, unless, you know, you're data mining people's APIs.

You're a moron.


What a compelling argument.

"Does the Eagle know what is in the pit, Or wilt thou go ask the Mole? Can Wisdom be put in a silver rod, Or Love in a golden bowl?"  "Above all, you can believe in Providence in either of two ways, either as thirst believes in the orange, or as the ass believes in the whip."

voetius
Grundrisse
#84 - 2013-07-10 20:20:08 UTC
Rhodopsin Pserad wrote:
Rhivre wrote:
You dont need an API to find out where you are with your secret mining either.

Any corp director can check your location without need for an API through the corp interface, they can even see what you are flying. If you are that worried about people knowing anything about you, then joining a corp is not where you want to be.

Corp directors can also look in your hangars, again, without an API needed.


Corp directors can look in personal hangers? Well, that just about guarenteed I never spent another cent on the game until I found out you can dump your stuff in containers. I appreciate moving as a team, but if a corp ditches you or something, or you otherwise need to leave it, you want to be able to be on your feet afterward.


You need the security officer role IIRC plus the corp needs to have an office in that station to be able to snoop on what your corpies have in the station.
Rhodopsin Pserad
Ho Theos Geometrei
#85 - 2013-07-10 20:21:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Rhodopsin Pserad
voetius wrote:
Rhodopsin Pserad wrote:
Zaxix wrote:
As I understand it, an API pull on your wallet can't go back much further than a month or so. There's also a total number of lines (transactions?) per pull. So whichever threshold you hit first would be the extent of the pull. That doesn't include contract information though, which is complete and permanent. Everyone can just go put up regional mineral buy orders and obliterate their wallet history. Or wait a bit.

There are other ways to accomplish the same sort of sanitization of ISK as well. For example, if you have Account A that has your really, super true Main on it with billions and billions of ISK, and you want to get ISK to Account B which has your super spai on it, all you need to do is buy a PLEX on Account A, create a temp alt on Account B, transfer the PLEX to the temp alt, the temp alt reverse redeems it to your account, biomass temp alt, super spai redeems PLEX to his hangar and sells it. Super spai tells target corp that he got impatient, bought a GTC with real money and redeemed it for sale and gladly supplies the complete API. Simple. If you want to keep your money sources secret, you can.
...
Does anyone do this? I have no idea. But it's definitely possible. Given the absurd levels of OCD in the EVE player population, I have to believe that someone, somewhere has at least tried it.


I have no account A with super billions, otherwise I wouldn't be concerned about being muscled out of a game I just started playing by giving away decent profit margins for a noob. I'm thinking I've made about 200-300 mil in the two weeks I've been playing, but most of it is held up in sunk costs and raw assets atm for materials and colonies and the like.

A program like that could be made in a day or less depending on your scripting skill. Unfortunately I'm too lazy to learn iostream.h.

They all tell you not to trust anyone when you join the game and the next thing they tell you is that you need to turn over all information about your character to someone who you don't know at all... I never even did that when I played WoW - can't believe nobody ever told me of this game.


If you only have a few hundred mill, really you shouldn't be worried. If you have 3 digit billions then yeh, like Zaxix says, just wind down all your orders, trash wallet history with region junk buys that will cost you a couple of mill. and move isk to another new account trashing disposble characters. Not really rocket science :)



I don't have 3 digit billions. I've been playing for 12 days. But, sure, I suppose I would do that if I were interested in flushing my wallet to join a corp, but it appears this game is full of the worst of the worst of the internet. I mean, the people you elect to your alliances actually publicly advise you to try to terrorize players into killing themselves? First time that happens, CCP is going to get a huge lawsuit because they only suspended that guy for a month. It'll be a cold day in hell when the public lets terms of service override wrongful death.

CCP is doing players a major wrong by incporating wallets and transactions into APIs. The corp heads should have to ask for a screenshot or something if they're that worried. They are well away of the kind of internet scams people play with both fake and real money and giving people all your transaction history is the numero uno way to fall into one. What spy would be stupid enough to create a 12 day old spy toon and then transfer it a billion or something wherein someone would need to see the wallet.

It's interesting that you brought up flushing the wallet with minerals, because those are the last major transactions on my wallet. I'm sure it's just a coincidence though... https://imageshack.com/a/img21/6938/ri3l.png

Of course, I'm just making control towers and nanite whatever they're called. I'm going to make a whopping 800k a day after customs tax and it'll take like a month to make up for the cost of assembling the colony. Though I wonder if CCP is going to look a little harder at Glenn Beck's claims about the Behngazi attack now and explain to me how people "happen" to know my transaction history and how the first person who contacted me "happened" to know a great deal about the tiny little sect of Christianity that I was raised which nobody else knows about which happens to own the U.S. Government organization "C Street." I can even send them the police reports directly connecting me to Ted Haggard, Pat Robertson, Loren Cunningham, Lou Engle, and a great many other people.

If you guys are stalking me in game, whatever reason your corp gave you is ostensible, I deal with people like that in real life because I ratted out some people to the police who are more powerful than the police.

If you're just mad at me for exposing your little API data mine, well, then, I guess it's just chance that it coincides with the guy who seemed to know everything about the little cult that is the real power in the U.S..

"Does the Eagle know what is in the pit, Or wilt thou go ask the Mole? Can Wisdom be put in a silver rod, Or Love in a golden bowl?"  "Above all, you can believe in Providence in either of two ways, either as thirst believes in the orange, or as the ass believes in the whip."

Trin Javidan
Caymen Labs
#86 - 2013-07-10 21:37:48 UTC
try to monitor 200 man on a daily basis throu api, i give it 2 weeks before you ragequit
Zaxix
State War Academy
Caldari State
#87 - 2013-07-10 21:40:44 UTC
Rhodopsin Pserad wrote:
Of course, I'm just making control towers and nanite whatever they're called. I'm going to make a whopping 800k a day after customs tax and it'll take like a month to make up for the cost of assembling the colony. Though I wonder if CCP is going to look a little harder at Glenn Beck's claims about the Behngazi attack now and explain to me how people "happen" to know my transaction history and how the first person who contacted me "happened" to know a great deal about the tiny little sect of Christianity that I was raised which nobody else knows about which happens to own the U.S. Government organization "C Street." I can even send them the police reports directly connecting me to Ted Haggard, Pat Robertson, Loren Cunningham, Lou Engle, and a great many other people.

If you guys are stalking me in game, whatever reason your corp gave you is ostensible, I deal with people like that in real life because I ratted out some people to the police who are more powerful than the police.

If you're just mad at me for exposing your little API data mine, well, then, I guess it's just chance that it coincides with the guy who seemed to know everything about the little cult that is the real power in the U.S..

Classic.

Bokononist

 

Caleb Ayrania
TarNec
Invisible Exchequer
#88 - 2013-07-10 23:08:14 UTC
Zaxix wrote:
Rhodopsin Pserad wrote:
Of course, I'm just making control towers and nanite whatever they're called. I'm going to make a whopping 800k a day after customs tax and it'll take like a month to make up for the cost of assembling the colony. Though I wonder if CCP is going to look a little harder at Glenn Beck's claims about the Behngazi attack now and explain to me how people "happen" to know my transaction history and how the first person who contacted me "happened" to know a great deal about the tiny little sect of Christianity that I was raised which nobody else knows about which happens to own the U.S. Government organization "C Street." I can even send them the police reports directly connecting me to Ted Haggard, Pat Robertson, Loren Cunningham, Lou Engle, and a great many other people.

If you guys are stalking me in game, whatever reason your corp gave you is ostensible, I deal with people like that in real life because I ratted out some people to the police who are more powerful than the police.

If you're just mad at me for exposing your little API data mine, well, then, I guess it's just chance that it coincides with the guy who seemed to know everything about the little cult that is the real power in the U.S..

Classic.


Op is?

A: Epic troll

B: Hiding meds under tongue

C: Manic newbie.

D: All of the above

Rhivre
TarNec
Invisible Exchequer
#89 - 2013-07-10 23:14:09 UTC
I dont want to make the OP even more paranoid, but, in addition to locator agents, there are also passive targeters and cargo scanners which people can use to see what you are carrying.

In addition, there are several out of game sites people can use for various things, all without having your API.

It is not difficult, via, locator agents, and reading ability to figure out what someone is buying.

Short version, if you are as paranoid as you are making out, make a 1 man corp and do everything yourself, you can get boosted by Estel Arador for POS standings, so you can do your own research and invention etc, so there is not even any need to grind.
Zaxix
State War Academy
Caldari State
#90 - 2013-07-10 23:19:34 UTC
Caleb Ayrania wrote:
Op is?

A: Epic troll

B: Hiding meds under tongue

C: Manic newbie.

D: All of the above


I'm going with Epic Troll. Because it's not quite as sad as the other two.

Bokononist

 

Elizabeth Norn
Nornir Research
Nornir Empire
#91 - 2013-07-10 23:27:53 UTC
Caleb Ayrania wrote:


Op is?

A: Epic troll

B: Hiding meds under tongue

C: Manic newbie.

D: All of the above



B: Cheeking it.
Tydeth Gilitae
Magewright Artificers
#92 - 2013-07-11 01:29:39 UTC
While we're on the topic of checking APIs, what are the usual softwares people actually use to DO that?
Rhivre
TarNec
Invisible Exchequer
#93 - 2013-07-11 01:34:18 UTC
That depends what you are checking for.

Evemon, Jeve, EveHQ for basic stuff, basically, any app that you use to do stuff with for your char can be used with someone elses API.
arabella blood
Keyboard Jihad
#94 - 2013-07-11 03:44:14 UTC
OP must be a troll on meds....crazy as only americans can be...

can someone give me the link again to his api?? need to check some stuff..

Troll for hire. Cheap prices.

arabella blood
Keyboard Jihad
#95 - 2013-07-11 06:14:31 UTC
I will tell you another secrets:
1. All software/sites that use your API to show you trade/refine/etc data are acctually spy on your info creating a huge database which later used to make tons of isk.

2. CCP sells your data, and many others, to major alliances for isk. This way eliminating isk from the game. Ask any major diplomat about "isk for info" and see.

3. The NSA uses fake corps to collect API to monitor black market transactions through RMT that sell guns, body parts, etc around the world. CCP refused to hand this info to an american agency, thats why they make the fake corps. BoB was founded as an FBI corp, dont know about the NSA corps.

4. The Mossad had a program of recruiting spies, then checking if they fit by asking them to infletrate eve corps. 11/12 BL spies are former Mossad recruits who just kept playing.

5. China used to do market manipulations in jita in order to test future IRL economic plans.

6. MCB Quantico has a room with computers, future officers are tested as FC's in EvE before recieving the rank. Its not the only test related to mmos btw, they also lead raids in WOW, the generals get the loot :(

7. During the purchase of "Tranquility", CCP visited a military bunker in texas to review the "persistent layer". It is believd that during that visit CCP Rise spotted an alien vessel hidden frim public. The design was later used to create the "nyx".

8. Knights templar, used the Jove space to test plans of world dominance.


Ok, now almost all the secrets are out. People can comment and provide more info about this if they have any, i only have partial info.

Troll for hire. Cheap prices.

Rhodopsin Pserad
Ho Theos Geometrei
#96 - 2013-07-11 08:31:52 UTC
Tydeth Gilitae wrote:
While we're on the topic of checking APIs, what are the usual softwares people actually use to DO that?


You don't need software to do it... You can write a couple thousand line program in a week to do that. Requires all the brains of a high-school drop out to program software to crunch numbers. And visual studio is free.

"Does the Eagle know what is in the pit, Or wilt thou go ask the Mole? Can Wisdom be put in a silver rod, Or Love in a golden bowl?"  "Above all, you can believe in Providence in either of two ways, either as thirst believes in the orange, or as the ass believes in the whip."

Rhodopsin Pserad
Ho Theos Geometrei
#97 - 2013-07-11 08:42:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Rhodopsin Pserad
arabella blood wrote:
I will tell you another secrets:
1. All software/sites that use your API to show you trade/refine/etc data are acctually spy on your info creating a huge database which later used to make tons of isk.

2. CCP sells your data, and many others, to major alliances for isk. This way eliminating isk from the game. Ask any major diplomat about "isk for info" and see.

3. The NSA uses fake corps to collect API to monitor black market transactions through RMT that sell guns, body parts, etc around the world. CCP refused to hand this info to an american agency, thats why they make the fake corps. BoB was founded as an FBI corp, dont know about the NSA corps.

4. The Mossad had a program of recruiting spies, then checking if they fit by asking them to infletrate eve corps. 11/12 BL spies are former Mossad recruits who just kept playing.

5. China used to do market manipulations in jita in order to test future IRL economic plans.

6. MCB Quantico has a room with computers, future officers are tested as FC's in EvE before recieving the rank. Its not the only test related to mmos btw, they also lead raids in WOW, the generals get the loot :(

7. During the purchase of "Tranquility", CCP visited a military bunker in texas to review the "persistent layer". It is believd that during that visit CCP Rise spotted an alien vessel hidden frim public. The design was later used to create the "nyx".

8. Knights templar, used the Jove space to test plans of world dominance.




Ok, now almost all the secrets are out. People can comment and provide more info about this if they have any, i only have partial info.


Now who's the epic troll. Whereas I certainly see the benefit of using effective "no-rules" economic and warfare sims examine methodologies, I think you're very amusing. I mean, after all, the U.S. Government spent billions on programs that would be far less educating than economic simulations, like their ostensible 20 year, multi-billion project to find out that LSD doesn't control peoples' minds.

I deal with people who do this stuff in real life, the corporate warfare, murders, illegal trade, etc.. I was a bit thrown off when someone from their sect was the first to approach me in game as they've already physically attacked me and my family, IRL.

I think this game should stay just the way it is. I'm a socialist and history tells us that people engaging in this kind of behavior have the best chance of overthrowing capitalist totalitarian regimes because they become conditioned to show what un-cultured looks like to the masses.

http://articles.latimes.com/1997-02-03/news/mn-25043_1_pyramid-scheme

Anyway, those of us who have studied Greek religion and philosophy know exactly why the one unreachable spot in the game is called the Jove empire. Just as we understand that Royal Amarr Institute's logo is a vertically skewed eye of providence and Khanid innovation is quite literally the Eye of Providence.

"Does the Eagle know what is in the pit, Or wilt thou go ask the Mole? Can Wisdom be put in a silver rod, Or Love in a golden bowl?"  "Above all, you can believe in Providence in either of two ways, either as thirst believes in the orange, or as the ass believes in the whip."

arabella blood
Keyboard Jihad
#98 - 2013-07-11 09:00:21 UTC
Epic troll? No. Thats just a sample of the info that floats around. You can see partial mentions of this online. You can learn more about this using TOR. Its your choice to believe it or not, but everything i mentioned has a source, some more established than others tho.

You let your guard drop, as a man who deal with it IRL, letting them find you playing EVE is a major flaud in your system.
EVE is not to be seen as another mmo m8, it has ties to the RL and to major agencies, occult etc.

You are being stocked, followed and spied upon. If you think your API put you to risk, you are beeing foolish.


I was part of it, but something changed, your post makes me realize its time the community to know about this, and im gonna blow this up! They cant silence me anylonger!

Troll for hire. Cheap prices.

Rhodopsin Pserad
Ho Theos Geometrei
#99 - 2013-07-11 09:10:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Rhodopsin Pserad
Rhivre wrote:
I dont want to make the OP even more paranoid, but, in addition to locator agents, there are also passive targeters and cargo scanners which people can use to see what you are carrying.

In addition, there are several out of game sites people can use for various things, all without having your API.

It is not difficult, via, locator agents, and reading ability to figure out what someone is buying.

Short version, if you are as paranoid as you are making out, make a 1 man corp and do everything yourself, you can get boosted by Estel Arador for POS standings, so you can do your own research and invention etc, so there is not even any need to grind.


I'm aware of cargo scanners. If you want to blow up my mark V with my 4 million in minerals in .9 space, go right ahead. Anything much more valuable than that and it's worth the 500k/jump to contract with shippers. I'm not the paranoid one, you people demand my financial info, I say no... simple as that. I'm simply advising new players not to freely give out sensitive information like that to scammers who are data mining it.

"Does the Eagle know what is in the pit, Or wilt thou go ask the Mole? Can Wisdom be put in a silver rod, Or Love in a golden bowl?"  "Above all, you can believe in Providence in either of two ways, either as thirst believes in the orange, or as the ass believes in the whip."

arabella blood
Keyboard Jihad
#100 - 2013-07-11 09:16:45 UTC
To help you on your search, i recommend you look into the origins of this game. Especially the four powers and their ties to templars, rosicrucians, paulicians and synarchists. Look deeper into jove realted materials. Watch for apperances of TRES society both in litterature and media...
This game is only the surface, it has so much more in depth porpuse than most people can imagine...

Troll for hire. Cheap prices.