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An idea, Reflection Shields and Armors

First post
Author
warzonetemp
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1 - 2013-07-10 02:50:16 UTC
Yeah, it sounds crazy at first, but hear me out.

What if we have a new type of defensive module that takes part of the DPS applied against a target and throws it back at the attacker. It will not add extra HP or resist to a ship, but instead allow part of the damage taken to be redirected back at a 3-1 ratio, i.e I attack you with 900 DPS, the armor or shields would deflect back 300 DPS of the same weapon damage type.

Stacking penalty would keep the max ratio with three modules like this below 50% reflection.

My thought on it would be that

Mid slot Shield reflector- reflect projectile and missiles
Low slot Armor reflector- reflect laser and Hybrids

If you break shields, the shield module will be useless and if you break armor the armor deflector will be useless.

Also, it would be a cap active module.

I know it sounds weird, but reflective shielding would be interesting.
Destination SkillQueue
Doomheim
#2 - 2013-07-10 03:55:21 UTC
I can't see this making any logical sense. I know this is a game, but there is a limit what is acceptable is a non-fantasy setting. If the weapons still do full damage, I don't see how it reflects anything as the weapon energy clearly fully reaches the target. It might work, if we were fighting in melee combat or it was a magic spell, but neither case is true. Even if we ignore that, you run into in-game mechanical problems. Missiles certainly wouldn't fly back to the ship, that launched them and the explosion from the target ship could not affect the launching ship. With turrets the problem is weapon ranges. They'll stop being effective long before reaching back to the original firing ship. So in order for the reflection module to function like you describe, be effective and make any sense, it has to operate as an independent weapon with it's own stats, so it doesn't actually reflect anything.
warzonetemp
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#3 - 2013-07-10 04:46:16 UTC
Destination SkillQueue wrote:
I can't see this making any logical sense. I know this is a game, but there is a limit what is acceptable is a non-fantasy setting. If the weapons still do full damage, I don't see how it reflects anything as the weapon energy clearly fully reaches the target. It might work, if we were fighting in melee combat or it was a magic spell, but neither case is true. Even if we ignore that, you run into in-game mechanical problems. Missiles certainly wouldn't fly back to the ship, that launched them and the explosion from the target ship could not affect the launching ship. With turrets the problem is weapon ranges. They'll stop being effective long before reaching back to the original firing ship. So in order for the reflection module to function like you describe, be effective and make any sense, it has to operate as an independent weapon with it's own stats, so it doesn't actually reflect anything.


Well, in real physics and engineering, lasers do reflect off surfaces and projectiles can bounce off armor (That's why tanks work so well).

As missiles being redirected, there's real world ECM that does that.

Without magic, science can achieve reflective defense systems, so why not eve ships.

Now as for practical use, remember space is a vacuum, no friction means newtonian physics work perfectly. What ever cannot get through the defenses of the ship's special armor/shield system would just head back where they came from. Lasers would be disadvantaged in this due to the near instantenous nature of the weapon. Hybrids/Projectiles will have some falloff if you are moving at distance, and Missiles will be limited by range.

This new module would allow players new creative ways to design ships to balance off range and weapons.
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
#4 - 2013-07-10 05:01:11 UTC
Two things. First, wrong forum; try Features and Ideas.

Second:

warzonetemp wrote:
Now as for practical use, remember space is a vacuum, no friction means newtonian physics work perfectly.


Have you looked at how EVE physics work? Because I hate to break it to you, but it's far from Newtonian. Unless we consider space a compressible medium. Which... isn't Newtonian either.
Froggy Storm
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#5 - 2013-07-10 05:54:48 UTC
The physics also hits another snag (neutonian or not) in that there would be no way to control the reflection vector. To use the armor analogy when the round hits the tank it rolls off the sloped armor not back where it came. Like wise with laser reflections the angle of the reflection would be effected by what the surface angle was. And so on.

Now on the eve side of things, this would probably break frigate warfare completely. The nominal fight time is already obscenely small with miniscule margin for error. Introduce bouncing damage and kite fits no longer are viable as they would shred their own "tanks"
Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
#6 - 2013-07-10 05:55:36 UTC
Pretty much obsoletes destroyers.
Whitehound
#7 - 2013-07-10 06:55:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Whitehound
warzonetemp wrote:
Yeah, it sounds crazy at first, but hear me out.

What if we have a new type of defensive module that takes part of the DPS applied against a target and throws it back at the attacker. It will not add extra HP or resist to a ship, but instead allow part of the damage taken to be redirected back at a 3-1 ratio, i.e I attack you with 900 DPS, the armor or shields would deflect back 300 DPS of the same weapon damage type.

Stacking penalty would keep the max ratio with three modules like this below 50% reflection.

My thought on it would be that

Mid slot Shield reflector- reflect projectile and missiles
Low slot Armor reflector- reflect laser and Hybrids

If you break shields, the shield module will be useless and if you break armor the armor deflector will be useless.

Also, it would be a cap active module.

I know it sounds weird, but reflective shielding would be interesting.

1.) Sorry, but this is the wrong forum. See Zhilia's comment above.

2.) You do not run around with a sword and your opponent wears a spiky armor, which deals damage back. There are only ranged attacks and the chance for a shot or a missile to reflect back are practically inexistent. Only with energy attacks like neutralisers and vampires does such a mechanic exist in form of the capacitor batteries, which causes the attacking module to work less efficient. Another module, the Target Spectrum Breaker, can reflect back sensor signals and thereby breaks target locks. If you want DPS to hit back will you have to lock onto the target and use your own weapons or try smartbombs if this is too much effort.

Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.

ISD Gallifreyan
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#8 - 2013-07-10 07:03:43 UTC
I have moved this post to the Features and Ideas section.

ISD Gallifreyan

Lt. Commander

Community Communication Liaisons (CCL)

Interstellar Services Department

HiddenPorpoise
Jarlhettur's Drop
United Federation of Conifers
#9 - 2013-07-10 08:21:22 UTC
warzonetemp wrote:
Well, in real physics and engineering, lasers do reflect off surfaces and projectiles can bounce off armor (That's why tanks work so well).

As missiles being redirected, there's real world ECM that does that.

None of these thing are true: weapon grade lasers heat things to the point that they stop reflecting light, and that makes them melt faster; tanks absorb shells with alternating layers of armor, deflections are the exception not the rule, and they most certainly don't shoot back out fully reformed; ECM doesn't do what you think it does, breaking a short range lock long enough to get out of the way is as far as ECM goes.

As for the idea: no.
warzonetemp
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#10 - 2013-07-10 12:50:09 UTC  |  Edited by: warzonetemp
My bad wrong area ; p

@hidden: umm...how can it not be true, if it works even as "an exception" as you say. Lasers and projectiles "can be" reflected. Missiles would be harder to redirect, I agree, like hijacking a missile's control from a fighter might not be practical due timing.

As for the idea, I know it sounds crazy, but it would be an interesting effect.

1st. Why can't armor or shields change surface dimensions? Shields in particular are formless, so in theory if you know the firing vector your shields can be adjusted to throw some back.

This is of course scifi, not fantasy. We can achieve moving armor now.

2nd. Don't get me wrong, this type of defense should not break tanks, unless you are flying close ranged glass cannons. At 30% reflect rate and a frigate dps at 200, you would only have 66.67 reflected. Am I wrong to say that most people can buffer tank that even before resist?

3rd. To make it not a broken trick, There could be a corresponding penalty to armor and shield resist based on module counter, I.e. reflective laser module would reduce em/therm by 10% base resist. At three of these 27 5% reduction in resist would counter 50% reflected dps, since more damage will get through.
Hopelesshobo
Hoboland
#11 - 2013-07-10 13:04:01 UTC
So basically attacking a ship larger then your own now becomes suicide and being able to out track your opponent's guns now becomes pointless.

Lowering the average to make you look better since 2012.

Kirimeena D'Zbrkesbris
Republic Military Tax Avoiders
#12 - 2013-07-10 13:27:09 UTC
now i wonder how that would work with smartbombs and bomb launchers... Also poor drones, why do you hate them that much?

Opinions are like assholes. Everybody got one and everyone thinks everyone else's stinks.

PopeUrban
El Expedicion
Flames of Exile
#13 - 2013-07-10 13:40:42 UTC
lol@realism arguments.

Because downloading consciousness with alien technology, sending it several solar systems via faster than light and totally secure and failsafe comms, uploading it in to a new clone, and onlining that clone within less than a minute is totally realistic.

Judge the idea on its merits as a gameplay system. You can make up scifi reasons for it to work to accommodate for gameplay, just like everything else in EVE.

For the record I think it's a decent idea, I played a fighter game called black prophecy that had similar limited use modules (well, pilot slotted special abilities, but in that game same difference) and it actually added a lot to the PvP gameplay. The numbers would need to be really looked at for balance reasons. More types of modules to diversify fits is always a good idea.
DataRunner Touch
Doomheim
#14 - 2013-07-10 16:46:46 UTC
Well if you all don't like Realism Arguments, how about arguments for the sake of balance.

Despite the diversity in this game, there is some rock paper scissors action going on. With this idea, now smaller ships won't have a chance of killing larger ships. It will become rock paper shotgun style game play where the bigger ships can ward off smaller ships by fitting this mod to reflect damage done to them.

As cool as that idea is, it not balanced. You would destroy a number of smaller ships fit so that they have to tank their own damage as well as other people's damage, thus making certain fits like speed tanking, useless.
warzonetemp
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#15 - 2013-07-10 23:41:54 UTC
Just looked up black prophecy on youtube, looks good as a game.

By the way for the speed tank advocates, Aren't speed tanks dying out ever since the nano nerf?

Besides, I think if you did add the secondary attribute, the base resist penalty would be tricky. True you will get hit back, but you will get more bang for your buck as well.

At the end of the day the numbers will be what makes this module fun, a balance between defensive and offensive fits.

Zatar Sharisa
New Eden Heavy Industries Incorporated
#16 - 2013-07-11 00:21:22 UTC
I have to give a negative to this idea. It is quite difficult to reflect incoming projectiles or energy beams back at their source.

Since physics was mentioned, I'll note that all real world armors work on the principle of dissipating or redirecting the energy of the attack. There's no reason to consider that EvE defenses work any differently. This means that shields absorb the impact and dissipate the energy over the "surface" of the field. Armor is made so that there are limited flat planes to absorb an impact, but instead the impact will slide off along a random angle. All of which makes it extremely difficult to control the direction of recoil/reflection, and thus impossible to reflect it, even in part, back at the attacker.

Now, all that said, I could envision a modification. Not reflection, but perhaps a shield module that lowers the strength of the shield, but uses feed back loops, sort of like tuned, resonant tesla coils, to impart some of the energy to the target. In short, this module would lower the overall shield hp, but would allow the defending ship to absorb some of that damage and convert it in capacitor power.

Honestly though, I don't see a real need for either module. I'm certainly don't think I'd use a reflector or an absorber as anything other than a curiosity.

I understand about indecision, but I don't care if I get behind.  People livin' in competition.  All I want is to have my peace of mind.

"Peace of Mind"  --  Boston

Astroniomix
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#17 - 2013-07-11 00:31:40 UTC
PopeUrban wrote:
lol@realism arguments.

Because downloading consciousness with alien technology, sending it several solar systems via faster than light and totally secure and failsafe comms, uploading it in to a new clone, and onlining that clone within less than a minute is totally realistic.

Judge the idea on its merits as a gameplay system. You can make up scifi reasons for it to work to accommodate for gameplay, just like everything else in EVE.

For the record I think it's a decent idea, I played a fighter game called black prophecy that had similar limited use modules (well, pilot slotted special abilities, but in that game same difference) and it actually added a lot to the PvP gameplay. The numbers would need to be really looked at for balance reasons. More types of modules to diversify fits is always a good idea.

Even in a made up sci-fi world there are limits as to how far handwavium can take you.

PopeUrban
El Expedicion
Flames of Exile
#18 - 2013-07-11 00:50:20 UTC
DataRunner Touch wrote:
Well if you all don't like Realism Arguments, how about arguments for the sake of balance.

Despite the diversity in this game, there is some rock paper scissors action going on. With this idea, now smaller ships won't have a chance of killing larger ships. It will become rock paper shotgun style game play where the bigger ships can ward off smaller ships by fitting this mod to reflect damage done to them.

As cool as that idea is, it not balanced. You would destroy a number of smaller ships fit so that they have to tank their own damage as well as other people's damage, thus making certain fits like speed tanking, useless.


You could always magic fit-restrict it like we do with other modules, or better yet make it a rig that adds the effect to shield boosters and have it only come in specific sizes at specific strengths. I'd see something like this being less of a "fit for lolrevenge iwin" and more for trap fits and fleet fits to help soften tanks.
Astroniomix
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#19 - 2013-07-11 01:18:52 UTC
PopeUrban wrote:

You could always magic fit-restrict it like we do with other modules, or better yet make it a rig that adds the effect to shield boosters and have it only come in specific sizes at specific strengths. I'd see something like this being less of a "fit for lolrevenge iwin" and more for trap fits and fleet fits to help soften tanks.

I still see this as "Battleships are now immune to frigates".
warzonetemp
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#20 - 2013-07-11 03:14:22 UTC
Astroniomix wrote:
PopeUrban wrote:

You could always magic fit-restrict it like we do with other modules, or better yet make it a rig that adds the effect to shield boosters and have it only come in specific sizes at specific strengths. I'd see something like this being less of a "fit for lolrevenge iwin" and more for trap fits and fleet fits to help soften tanks.

I still see this as "Battleships are now immune to frigates".


Yeah, but Battleship sized weapons do little damage to frigates to begin with remember, so this in a way balances the Frigate roles to what CCP had originally envisioned based on the creation of sigs.

I think what you're missing is that the sig hasn't been lifted between BS weapons and smaller sigs or BS reflector modules and frig sig.
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