Skill Discussions

So would finding something to do that doesn't require a ton of SP, and taking advantage of the time to actually learn the game while you're flying ships you can afford to lose. That's so much more valuable than SP. You can cover a huge amount of SP/equipment deficit by knowing how to fly and how to choose your targets. That T2 fit BS you're so eager to get into? Your day can be ruined by a noob in a throwaway T1 tackle frigate. Find a group that can help you learn the game mechanics, and you'll see that bigger is not always better.

Precisely my sentiment. There should be some kind of reward for playing, and especially for playing WELL.

OP, I'm a 100+m SP character, and have gone through the growing pains of being a new character:

When I first started, I trained training skills for 2 MONTHS. These skills didn't unlock weapons or ships, they simply increased my attributes, and took a long time to do that. Learning skills are gone, and now there are even 1-Month increased learning speeds for new players.

When I first started, the tutorials were in much, much worse position. The resources to learn about the game were in a much, much worse position. Now, more resources are available, and better tutorials too. There are also more players, which mean more opportunity to team up with a vet and learn the game.

When I first started, all T1 Ships were tiered, leaving only one or two viable "combat" ships in each category (frig, dessie, cruiser, bc). Now, most ships have excellent utility, and there are even t1 versions of interceptors, logistics, covops, and more. Trying out new areas of game play has never been more accessible.

When I first started PvP'ing (w/ 5m combat SP), I didn't use t2 guns, I didn't use t2 ships. I went out in Meta2 & Meta3 fit Tristans, Merlins, and Rifters, and solo'd interceptors (primarily), other t1 frigates, and even the occasional cruiser. I also worked within a gang, and made significant contributions by bringing dps and ewar to the fight, even if it wasn't "maxed skilled" contributions.

To this day, I take out frigates and cruisers and engage in solo combat, where I love to take on ships "outside my weight class". I explore tactics like soloing Assault frigates and destroyers with a Helios. I see the accessible and newbie friendly organizations like Brave Newbies, Inc and EvE Uni, which do great things with players that are just starting this game. So, I really just don't understand where you are coming from:

Your main post is all about getting into BS's and using T2 Weapons. Really? Your skipping over the amazing amount of very accessible content, and bee-lining towards the BS, because why? You can do that all you want, but what's the next complaint? OMG, I can't get into a Dread, Carrier, or Titan within a couple months?

I understand it feels like there is a huge skillpoint wall because, when you are new to the game, there is a gajillion things you want to try out, and unlocking each thing takes time. To put this in an analogy, imagine you were told to hike on a nature trail to a waterfall. The truth is, the beauty and awesomeness of the trail is all around you from the first step, but if all your focused on is the waterfall you'll miss it. That's how you're playing EvE.... Gotta get that T2 Fit BS, ignoring all the immediately accessible things you can do right now!

Lol, if you want a game with 12 mil players (or whatever WoW has at this very moment) I suggest you to go elsewhere. This game survived quite fine without you for 10 years and will survive another 10 years, if devs don't listen to spoiled twats who want stuff for free.

Why the hell I keep talking to the wall is beyond me, but hey, everyone can have his/her sperg burst, isn't it?

I feel partially responsible for giving this thread legs, so sure, what the hell, here we go again.



Are you just throwing out aspirational numbers or have you thought about the consequences to this? You'd be looking at literally everyone in the game having 100mil SP in just over a year. And quite frankly, you don't need 100mil SP. Chances are, most people who have that much never, ever use the majority of it.

Back on the first page of this thread I thought we were talking about a cruiser line with a reasonable T2 fits -- which ought to clock in under 20mil SP. You can continue to refine that, but from all I can see (and I happen to have an alt following this path right now) you kind of cap at all races sub-BS combat around 65mil SP -- two and a half years of training. There are still a few things here and there you can take to five from there (compensation skills, gun/missile specs to 5, a few elite certs) but you're pretty much there. You've arrived. There's nothing major you can do to improve without jumping into another field or larger ships.

You might be able to argue that the first cruiser 5, or the newly split battlecruiser skill to 5, along with T2 guns, reasonable fitting skills, and mostly T2 mods should be within reach in less time than it is now. And I believe I've already agreed with that in principle; if not, consider this an agreement in principle. But what you asked for in the quote above is absolutely game-breaking. Skill levels actually become meaningless under such a scheme. And maybe that's the real complaint? Skill mean too much? Because I'm not going to agree with that; skills are there as the only real means of progression in the game; devalue them too much and every character is just a cookie cutter clone.

Which brings us to this:



The thing is: there is no SP wall. Or at least, it's not where you think it is. As has been said before, skills cap at 5. Once you're there, you're there. Anyone can catch up.

What we have is a perceived skill wall. The driving idea behind all of this seems to be "if I just had more SP, I would be able to do things better". And it's not true. All you can do is do more things. And you can't do all those things simultaneously in the first place. I said way back in my first reply that I rarely use even a small percentage of the total SP on my main, and oddly enough the same is going to be true at much lower skill levels.

So we circle back. If you're asking to be able to do something well in a relatively short amount of time, I think I can get behind that. But if you're asking for all the advantages of training for five or ten years to be handed to you in a vastly accelerated time frame then I'll have to turn that back on you: what would progression look like under this scheme?

Because I simply don't see any anymore. SP would become utterly meaningless. There's nothing to aspire to anymore. There's no reason to keep your account sub and training. New player retention might go up, but median player age would go dramatically down as vets filtered out and medium-term players no longer stayed associated with a game they had already "won" from a progression standpoint. The game would suffer for it.

Finally, this:



You've already been called on this point, but I'd like to do it again and point out why it weakens your other arguments so much.

EVE has a very rich economy. It's driven entirely (well, almost) by players. Battleships cost x amount because it takes y time to make them and requires z minerals. Those z minerals are player-supplied, and miners value their time at q, so minerals are always going to cost a certain amount. As demand for battleships goes up, demand for minerals goes up, and final prices for everyone go up.

And see, that's a really, really fundamental part of the game. In fact, that's the major draw for me. But I recognize it isn't the draw for everyone. Some people still think they're playing internet spaceships instead of spreadsheets in space; go figure.

But it's still fundamental. And the fact that you've overlooked that unfortunately shows how much you still have to learn about this game. It doesn't invalidate your core point -- that new player progression and retention needs work -- but it certainly undermines the solutions you're throwing at it. They aren't good solutions. They don't address the real problems. And they actually work to undercut the game we've come to know and love.

You bring up some very valid points I had not considered. I'm actually rather lucky, when I signed up again at the beginning of Feb, I heard about the splitting up of BC and Destroyer skills so quickly levelled both to 5, so I dodged a bullet there.

As much as I hate to admit it, after thoughtfully going over your posts you're right, my ideas are terrible and whilst perhaps solving an issue on one side of the fence it would create it's own set of issues for the other. I was just trying to help, but this is one issue I clearly hold no weight in due to my lack of experience from the other side of the fence.

I'll just try and enjoy the game the best I can whilst waiting for the appropriate skills to kick butt in my anti-frigate bait tornado. Thank you too for taking the time and effort to explain your side of the argument in a clear and concise manner, I appreciate it.

Peace.

CCP changes the game to cater to the people that want 100m SP in the first few months.

Game attracts more childish players that want "easier" gameplay.

Players lose ships to "those evil veterans", and start demanding easier mechanics that wont require time to learn.

Players also start demanding better economics since they are buying ships that they cannot afford, and lose said ships.

Ships are basically free, SP isnt an issue, yet they still explode because players didnt learn how to pick engagements. They start demanding even more.

Game is now spacewow with little to no effort required to ship, reship, skill up, and play.

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While everyone wants a better retention rate, most of us do not want to retain the type of players that will destroy the core of the game that we subscribed to. 100m SP might be cool on the character sheet, but that doesnt mean as much as you think.

There are many rewards for "playing, and especially for playing WELL". Just not skillpoints.

EVE is a blessed oasis of freedom from skillgrinding. There are many of us who will fight to the end to preserve that freedom.

I bet there's a lot of fat to be cut from those 200 days. Armor Comps to V? Shield skills?

Again you're implicitly assuming that "perfect" skills are required to be "competitive", whatever that's supposed to mean. But in 99 fights out of 100 that actually happen on TQ, a few percent more or less DPS or EHP won't affect the outcome at all.

This is exactly what my biggest gripe is as a new player. I theory craft and check out Battleclinic before fitting out all my ships, however being a new player I don’t have any of the required skills for the T2 weapons and Ammo that make the builds so effective. However I’ll grit my teeth and make it the best I can using T1 weapons and ammo, and sometimes my DPS doesn’t even reach half of what I’m being told is possible.

As far as I can tell, some builds really aren’t worth it unless you can fit your ship out with T2 weapons and ammo, well it certainly feels that way. I then go and theory craft to see just how long it will take me to get the appropriate skills to use T2 weapons and ammo, and 200 days sounds about right for most medium weapons. And that is just for one weapon type.

This to a new player feels extremely daunting, and it really does feel that in the big picture, at this stage in the games life cycle, that it really wouldn’t hurt doing as you suggested, giving new players better base skills somehow.

Don’t worry I’m not going to come up with any more crazy ideas people! But Chi'Nane’s example really does echo how daunting a feat trying to fit out T2 weapons and ammo of just one type can feel to a new player. And I believe this is one of the biggest contributing factors to turning new players off of the game, particularly those that want to PvP competitively.

Talking from personal experience, I’ve been in many situations where I would have at least stood a chance if I was able to match the shear damage being put out compared to my own. Everyone says the difference is negligible, but looking at the T2 fits, then building my own T1 fits to match, it’s really not. I know it’s not all about straight up damage vs straight up damage, and but damage is important and the difference between T1 fits vs T2 fits with T2 ammo can decide a fight before its even begun, even if your fit supposedly counters theirs.

That’s just my 2 cents and I’m going to stick with it anyway, but I really hope something can be done that will ease new players passage into EVE whilst not impacting any long term players.