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Oracle - Capacitor and Damage Bonuses Again? Really?
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Arya Greywolf
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1 - 2011-11-09 06:49:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Arya Greywolf
I am really anticipating the coming expansion and the months following it - a lot of great stuff especially the small things I've just found out about. See Loot All button on wrecks (I hope it's bindable!); Turrets that actually visually miss your ship; Engine Trails.

And of course I'm pumped for the new Tier 3 Battlecruisers. Yes, I understand that they are still testing and reviewing all the data, etc., but I'm rather disappointed and annoyed that Amarr will likely get another pvp ship with Capacitor and Damage bonuses, yet again. ***Really though, it's just the capacitor bonus that is really lame.

The far majority of useful pvp Amarr laser boats have a capacitor bonus. Apocalypse, Zealot, Armageddon, and of course we can't forget the Harbinger - which has exactly the same bonuses as the current Oracle - capacitor and damage.

Before you start whining and saying "but damage bonus is great!" - You're right I agree. But to be frank, It's rather boring and lame to use the exact same bonuses as the harbinger. Really, I would give up the damage bonus in a heartbeat if it meant we got a new and different bonus- other than capacitor use . . . finally.

Yes, lasers are capacitor heavy - to the point that when flying an Amarr laser boat you're basically required to use a cap booster regardless of if the ship has a capacitor bonus or not. We want something different! We are going to use a cap booster anyway!

TLDR: I guess what I'm trying to say is that the Amarr ships are pigeonholed into this capacitor use bonus that really isn't a bonus at all. It's more of a necessary fix to give Amarr ships the ability to shoot for more than 15 seconds. Other racial ships don't suffer this fault. BOTH of the two bonuses other racial ships get actually are useful (tracking, fallout, range, rate of fire). Finally, it brings about boring and lame bonuses to the far majority of Amarr pvp ships.
Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
#2 - 2011-11-09 07:31:54 UTC
They are doing what they always do .. a single brain-fart, in this case over-sized weapons, that gains tractions among the rank and file at the office and everything is thrown at the problem until the square peg fits the round hole.

If they had brains they would make them super-destroyers using medium guns with range/tracking/damage bonuses and flimsy as can be tanks .. but it doesn't fit with the brain-fart so we get to play with a seriously OP hull (Tornado) and a bunch of hulls ranging from 'meh' to 'why bother'.

CCP has lost their mojo Sad
McRoll
Extraction and Exploration Ltd.
#3 - 2011-11-09 08:01:50 UTC
Hirana Yoshida wrote:
They are doing what they always do .. a single brain-fart, in this case over-sized weapons, that gains tractions among the rank and file at the office and everything is thrown at the problem until the square peg fits the round hole.

If they had brains they would make them super-destroyers using medium guns with range/tracking/damage bonuses and flimsy as can be tanks .. but it doesn't fit with the brain-fart so we get to play with a seriously OP hull (Tornado) and a bunch of hulls ranging from 'meh' to 'why bother'.

CCP has lost their mojo Sad


And super destroyers with bonused medium guns would be different to the new BC's exactly how? It would create even more problems as medium guns are able to hit most ships below BC class really well. You want to make smaller ships obsolete by creating super destroyers?

Good thing you arent a developer.

Large guns arent as problematic because they have tracking issues and that leaves smaller ships competitive. Besides I think its a very good idea because right now we have only one class of ships with oversized guns- stealth bombers. They will certainly have their uses and niches. Perhaps you should wait how it works out and then start bitching?
Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
#4 - 2011-11-09 08:04:14 UTC
well... considering its a well you know a battlecruiser and it doesnt have the capacitor of a battleship and its shooting 8 battleship guns and may not have room for a pvp tank and a heavy injector, err yeah I would love a cap bonus at that point.

Dust 514's CPM 1 Iron Wolf Saber Eve mail me about Dust 514 issues.
Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
#5 - 2011-11-09 09:39:01 UTC
McRoll wrote:
..Large guns arent as problematic because they have tracking issues and that leaves smaller ships competitive. Besides I think its a very good idea because right now we have only one class of ships with oversized guns- stealth bombers. They will certainly have their uses and niches. Perhaps you should wait how it works out and then start bitching?..

Why wait when common sense screams that it will break more than it fixes? Got the exact same tingling when they tried selling the AB AF boost as a solution and started bitching prior to it even going on SiSi for testing .. guess how that turned out (ie. Me > You)

You mean like tier2 BCs leave lots and lots of room for cruisers and frigs to frolic when they are around? Shocked

Bombers work because they are not using over-sized weapons but super-sized weapons (two sizes larger). If they were using HAMS/HMLs you'd be crawling the walls to have them nerfed or removed because they would obliterate/un-balance everything.

Oversized guns do indeed "solve" the obsolescence of smaller vessels .. at least until you have 5+ of the things and cross-fire guarantees zero transversals (Gun BS w. good FC + webs > AHACs and AF Wolfpacks).
Then you have the whole Gankers-****-in-pants and the annoying fact that one can't even run from them because they have high'ish speeds, BS weapon range and will almost certainly have 90km+ points available thanks to omnipresent link T3's.

Making them super-destroyers does NOT remove viability from smaller classes as that has already been done by tier2's, but it will make BS and other BCs hard counters to them, make them hard counters to Fighters/F.Bombers/H.Drones and thus allowing us to limit (read: use a balanced approach) nerf to Carriers/S.Carriers, Dread drones etc.

My bitching trumps your desire to make me stop any day of the week!

Common Sense and Rational Thought for the WIN!
DarkAegix
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#6 - 2011-11-09 09:54:28 UTC
Look on the bright side: at least the Oracle's bonuses aren't as bad as the Naga's.
Cunane Jeran
#7 - 2011-11-09 10:10:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Cunane Jeran
Hirana Yoshida wrote:
They are doing what they always do .. a single brain-fart, in this case over-sized weapons, that gains tractions among the rank and file at the office and everything is thrown at the problem until the square peg fits the round hole.

If they had brains they would make them super-destroyers using medium guns with range/tracking/damage bonuses and flimsy as can be tanks .. but it doesn't fit with the brain-fart so we get to play with a seriously OP hull (Tornado) and a bunch of hulls ranging from 'meh' to 'why bother'.

CCP has lost their mojo Sad


Thank god your not a Dev. Unless you really felt an urge to make a pvp omgwtfbbq ship against everything from a frigate up tbh. That suggestion would make every other ship pointless.

Large weapons address that problem, the damage is good, the alpha is pretty darn high and while it can be used on smaller ships, it's just a pain in the ass.
Buzzmong
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#8 - 2011-11-09 11:16:46 UTC
It's using large lasers. It won't be able to function without a cap bonus.

The damage bonus however is interesting, but at least it's not one of the silly tanking bonuses.

TBH, I still think CCP are going about it wrong by letting them fit 8 turrets as they're going to show up BS's. All the new tier 3 would have been better with 4/5 turrets imo.
Raven Ether
Doomheim
#9 - 2011-11-09 11:49:31 UTC
Arya Greywolf wrote:
I am really anticipating the coming expansion and the months following it - a lot of great stuff especially the small things I've just found out about. See Loot All button on wrecks (I hope it's bindable!); Turrets that actually visually miss your ship; Engine Trails.

And of course I'm pumped for the new Tier 3 Battlecruisers. Yes, I understand that they are still testing and reviewing all the data, etc., but I'm rather disappointed and annoyed that Amarr will likely get another pvp ship with Capacitor and Damage bonuses, yet again. Really though, it's just the capacitor bonus that is really lame.

The far majority of useful pvp Amarr laser boats have a capacitor bonus. Apocalypse, Zealot, Armageddon, and of course we can't forget the Harbinger - which has exactly the same bonuses as the current Oracle - capacitor and damage.

Before you start whining and saying "but damage bonus is great!" - You're right I agree. But to be frank, It's rather boring and lame to use the exact same bonuses as the harbinger. Really, I would give up the damage bonus in a heartbeat if it meant we got a new and different bonus- other than capacitor use . . . finally.

Yes, lasers are capacitor heavy - to the point that when flying an Amarr laser boat you're basically required to use a cap booster regardless of if the ship has a capacitor bonus or not. We want something different! We are going to use a cap booster anyway!

TLDR: I guess what I'm trying to say is that the Amarr ships are pigeonholed into this capacitor use bonus that really isn't a bonus at all. It's more of a necessary fix to give Amarr ships the ability to shoot for more than 15 seconds. Other racial ships don't suffer this fault. BOTH of the two bonuses other racial ships get actually are useful (tracking, fallout, range, rate of fire). Finally, it brings about boring and lame bonuses to the far majority of Amarr pvp ships.



I agree, the presence of capacitor bonuses in general is a mistake. I am very very sad to see the Oracle essentially having one bonus, the other (the capacitor bonus) being a simple "so you can actually shoot" mechanic.

Buzzmong wrote:
It's using large lasers. It won't be able to function without a cap bonus.



You are wrong. The demands of large weapons are to be determined through the ROLE bonus, not the per level bonus of the ship itself.




/sigh
Gypsio III
State War Academy
Caldari State
#10 - 2011-11-09 12:24:11 UTC
If the performance of a ship is satisfactory, it matters not what the bonuses are. So you should be grateful that the Oracle isn't a Talos or Naga.

Balance ships, not bonuses. Straight
Manar Detri
#11 - 2011-11-09 13:09:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Manar Detri
Arya Greywolf wrote:
I am really anticipating the coming expansion and the months following it - a lot of great stuff especially the small things I've just found out about. See Loot All button on wrecks (I hope it's bindable!); Turrets that actually visually miss your ship; Engine Trails.

And of course I'm pumped for the new Tier 3 Battlecruisers. Yes, I understand that they are still testing and reviewing all the data, etc., but I'm rather disappointed and annoyed that Amarr will likely get another pvp ship with Capacitor and Damage bonuses, yet again. Really though, it's just the capacitor bonus that is really lame.

The far majority of useful pvp Amarr laser boats have a capacitor bonus. Apocalypse, Zealot, Armageddon, and of course we can't forget the Harbinger - which has exactly the same bonuses as the current Oracle - capacitor and damage.

Before you start whining and saying "but damage bonus is great!" - You're right I agree. But to be frank, It's rather boring and lame to use the exact same bonuses as the harbinger. Really, I would give up the damage bonus in a heartbeat if it meant we got a new and different bonus- other than capacitor use . . . finally.

Yes, lasers are capacitor heavy - to the point that when flying an Amarr laser boat you're basically required to use a cap booster regardless of if the ship has a capacitor bonus or not. We want something different! We are going to use a cap booster anyway!

TLDR: I guess what I'm trying to say is that the Amarr ships are pigeonholed into this capacitor use bonus that really isn't a bonus at all. It's more of a necessary fix to give Amarr ships the ability to shoot for more than 15 seconds. Other racial ships don't suffer this fault. BOTH of the two bonuses other racial ships get actually are useful (tracking, fallout, range, rate of fire). Finally, it brings about boring and lame bonuses to the far majority of Amarr pvp ships.


I agree, change the cap bonus to a 7.5% increase to armor repair amount per level and damage bonus to a 5% increase to MicroWarpdrive capacitor bonus per level. This should make it good and fair.
Miriiah
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#12 - 2011-11-09 15:56:32 UTC
Raven Ether wrote:
Arya Greywolf wrote:
I am really anticipating the coming expansion and the months following it - a lot of great stuff especially the small things I've just found out about. See Loot All button on wrecks (I hope it's bindable!); Turrets that actually visually miss your ship; Engine Trails.

And of course I'm pumped for the new Tier 3 Battlecruisers. Yes, I understand that they are still testing and reviewing all the data, etc., but I'm rather disappointed and annoyed that Amarr will likely get another pvp ship with Capacitor and Damage bonuses, yet again. Really though, it's just the capacitor bonus that is really lame.

The far majority of useful pvp Amarr laser boats have a capacitor bonus. Apocalypse, Zealot, Armageddon, and of course we can't forget the Harbinger - which has exactly the same bonuses as the current Oracle - capacitor and damage.

Before you start whining and saying "but damage bonus is great!" - You're right I agree. But to be frank, It's rather boring and lame to use the exact same bonuses as the harbinger. Really, I would give up the damage bonus in a heartbeat if it meant we got a new and different bonus- other than capacitor use . . . finally.

Yes, lasers are capacitor heavy - to the point that when flying an Amarr laser boat you're basically required to use a cap booster regardless of if the ship has a capacitor bonus or not. We want something different! We are going to use a cap booster anyway!

TLDR: I guess what I'm trying to say is that the Amarr ships are pigeonholed into this capacitor use bonus that really isn't a bonus at all. It's more of a necessary fix to give Amarr ships the ability to shoot for more than 15 seconds. Other racial ships don't suffer this fault. BOTH of the two bonuses other racial ships get actually are useful (tracking, fallout, range, rate of fire). Finally, it brings about boring and lame bonuses to the far majority of Amarr pvp ships.



I agree, the presence of capacitor bonuses in general is a mistake. I am very very sad to see the Oracle essentially having one bonus, the other (the capacitor bonus) being a simple "so you can actually shoot" mechanic.

Buzzmong wrote:
It's using large lasers. It won't be able to function without a cap bonus.



You are wrong. The demands of large weapons are to be determined through the ROLE bonus, not the per level bonus of the ship itself.




/sigh
Your cap bonus is the same as gallente/minmatar damage/rof bonus.
Goose99
#13 - 2011-11-09 16:02:14 UTC
Nerf Scorch, then we'll talk.Cool
Arrigo Glokta
#14 - 2011-11-09 17:01:31 UTC
Goose99 wrote:
Nerf Scorch, then we'll talk.Cool


Nerf Scorch and Pulses will not be much better than Blasters.

Nerf AC's down to Scorch Pulse level, and buff Hybrids into line with them. Is it that difficult to see? Why do you want AC's to be only usable turret ?

I'd just like to point out that I use AC's on nearly all of my ships - Amarr and Mini alike.
Arya Greywolf
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#15 - 2011-11-09 17:01:49 UTC
Buzzmong wrote:
It's using large lasers. It won't be able to function without a cap bonus.

The damage bonus however is interesting, but at least it's not one of the silly tanking bonuses.

TBH, I still think CCP are going about it wrong by letting them fit 8 turrets as they're going to show up BS's. All the new tier 3 would have been better with 4/5 turrets imo.


This is irrelevant. All the Tier 3 battlecruisers are being designed to use their capacitors in a way that is normalized for the class of the ship - meaning it will be like they are all firing medium weapons. So, here, if the Oracle did not have the capacitor bonus, it would be like it was firing normal medium lasers - like a harbinger w/out capacitor bonus.

Lasers always demand lots of capacitor. When people start taking the Oracle out for pvp they will be bringing cap boosters regardless if it has the capacitor bonus or not. It's just a lame bonus.
Buzzmong
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#16 - 2011-11-09 17:47:29 UTC
Ooops, didn't release it was a role bonus.
Arya Greywolf
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#17 - 2011-11-10 00:25:10 UTC
Gypsio III wrote:
If the performance of a ship is satisfactory, it matters not what the bonuses are. So you should be grateful that the Oracle isn't a Talos or Naga.

Balance ships, not bonuses. Straight


Obviously we all want ship balance. However, that's not what I'm discussing - at least not that broadly. The very common, to the point it's almost on every Amarr ship, bonus of capacitor use for lasers isn't really a bonus at all; it's just a fix.
Jojo Jackson
Dead Red Eye
#18 - 2011-11-10 17:55:14 UTC
Less cap usage peer level is and never was a "bonus"!

In fact half the Laser ships have just ONE bonus MISSING a second one as every ship should have enough cap without this to use it's primary weapons.

The Apoc is a great example how it should be.
Long time it had a silly 5% cap/level anti bonus. Absolut noone used it this days.
Then they changed it to 25% BASE cap and the Apoc got a REAL bonus with 5% more optimal/level. And suddenly it was the sniper king.

Why oh why don't CCP just change ALL ships with this STUPID anti-bonus?
REMOVE 5% cap usage/level
ADD 25% base cap (or recharge)
ADD REAL second bonus!

Why the hell can't I fitt capital repairs or shield booster on an Orca ... it's an CAPITAL ship!
Mfume Apocal
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#19 - 2011-11-10 18:04:53 UTC
Arrigo Glokta wrote:
Nerf AC's down to Scorch Pulse level...


You are dumb.
Tanya Powers
Doomheim
#20 - 2011-11-10 18:12:09 UTC
Gypsio III wrote:
If the performance of a ship is satisfactory, it matters not what the bonuses are. So you should be grateful that the Oracle isn't a Talos or Naga.

Balance ships, not bonuses. Straight


Very much this, once again Gypsio points out the most important stuff that should concern every one, it's not a matter of doing oranges with bananas or bananas with apples, it's a matter of interest for the whole game that you have fun with whatever you fly.

Not just like now where fun= minmatar, everything else you just triggered the [hard mode=ON]
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