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At what point is something an Exploit and not game Mechanics ? Bumped for 60 Minutes

First post First post First post
Author
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#1141 - 2013-07-08 21:02:47 UTC
TheGunslinger42 wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:
TheGunslinger42 wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:
TheGunslinger42 wrote:
Murk, why do think it's an exploit or harassment because it lasted as long (and by long I mean a pretty short time, really - an hour is nothing) as it did?

Do you think there should be a special cut off time after which you can merely excuse yourself from the fight and leave without taking a loss?

I personally think that if someone manages to start and engagement with you while you're online and playing, then they should be able to finish what they started regardless of how long it takes, and merely logging off during the engagement should NEVER be what results in you escaping or winning.

I don't think ongoing fights should have any kind to time limit after which they are mechanically ended (such as via a log off) because that's crap. Currently, the time limit is technically until you reach downtime, I guess, but I don't see why we should go back to the old days of ships vanishing mid combat because the other guy decided he was losing and killed the client. That's just crap



An hour is a long time if you need to string 15 minute timers together.

By itself 60 minutes is not much by itself, but it is excessive to hold a ship in highsec with noobships.

As much as you think it's "crap", it still comes down to it being a limitation everyone has the option of exercising. Like in a different post, I'm not talking about pulling the plug at a moment's notice.. but there does have to be a realm of plausability beyond downtime.


Why? I don't think there should be. If you end up in an engagement, I think it's perfectly reasonable that you remain involved in that engagement until it ends 'naturally' - that is to say, you win the fight, you escape, or you lose the fight. Not "it's exceeded some arbitrary time limit, so now I am allowed to kill the client and get away scott free tee hee"



So you're saying it's all or nothing right? You're equating balancing 1 hour of stringing logoff timers with noobships being the caveat of "getting away scot free"?


If you end caught in a fight then I do think that the fight needs to play out within the game rules - not be ended (and DEFINITELY not in a favourable way) by external means such as killing the client. You're kind of muddying the waters by harping on about the duration and by what ships may have been used. What ships they were in when refreshing the timer is irrelevant.

As for the reason it lasted an hour, that is because the freighter kept it going for an hour. He made the decision to spend that amount of time struggling to save his stuff - and that's fine, he's entitled to do that, and in slightly different circumstances his willingness to commit that amount of time very well could have saved him (giving his friends time to get blackbirds, or counter bumping ships, or anything else). If he hadn't been willing to commit that much time, he also could have done a number of other things to end it much earlier, such attempting to convo them and strike a deal, or even self destructing or ejecting.

So no, I do not think he should have a way to kill the client and disappear safely. Not when he found himself in a fight, and when he made the decisions to keep it going on that long, and when the decision to drag it out that long can, in many cases, be the winning move anyway (it just wasnt here because his corp mates are bad).

I honestly, truly can't understand why you think someone should be able to simply opt out of pvp and disconnect to save themselves. I really, really don't get that.




That's because you are assuming my answers. Nowhere did I mention anything about what you are harping about, and everything you are mentioning I have also mentioned as being worthy of a petition, which would also be another "option" that freighter pilot has at his disposal.

So yea, I can see where you would have trouble "really really getting that" as it is not what I'm saying at all.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.

E-2C Hawkeye
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1142 - 2013-07-08 21:09:51 UTC
TheGunslinger42 wrote:
E-2C Hawkeye wrote:
TheGunslinger42 wrote:
Murk, why do think it's an exploit or harassment because it lasted as long (and by long I mean a pretty short time, really - an hour is nothing) as it did?

Do you think there should be a special cut off time after which you can merely excuse yourself from the fight and leave without taking a loss?

I personally think that if someone manages to start and engagement with you while you're online and playing, then they should be able to finish what they started regardless of how long it takes, and merely logging off during the engagement should NEVER be what results in you escaping or winning.

I don't think ongoing fights should have any kind to time limit after which they are mechanically ended (such as via a log off) because that's crap. Currently, the time limit is technically until you reach downtime, I guess, but I don't see why we should go back to the old days of ships vanishing mid combat because the other guy decided he was losing and killed the client. That's just crap

If we were talking fights I might be inclined to agree, but we are not talking fights. We are talking about people taking advantage of a bumping mechanic. I don’t disapprove of the tactic of getting bumped to stop me from getting back to the gate. The guy is there they engage I get bumped I get blown up.

I really don’t think any of you forum babies arguing this is working as intended would be ok with getting bumped for an hour should the tables be reversed. Sure your going to say you are because you want to argue to keep your broken game mechanic which probably can’t be fixed by ccp anyhow. The best we could hope for is that they label it as harassment or exploit after a given point or time.


We are talking fights. You just don't want to admit that it is, like it or not, a valid fight. Fights, particularly in EVE, aren't fair. It doesn't mean it isn't a fight, and it sure as hell doesn't mean you should be able to kill the client to escape from it. PVP is not consensual. You can throw ad hominem as much as you want, and make up statements attributing made up behaviours and reactions to us all you want, but it just makes your argument seem even weaker if you resort to those things.


Consensual or not it doesnt matter. What does matter is there is no fight until the freighter is aggressed so the mechanic of bumping does not produce aggression. Anyone should not be allowed to waste an hour or more of my time with no aggression.

Bump me if you need to but do it in what should be deternibed by ccp as an acceptable time frame then blow me up and let me get on with my game.

Keeping me tied to game with no aggression timer and no options after a certain point should be defined as griefing per CCP.

TheGunslinger42
All Web Investigations
#1143 - 2013-07-08 21:57:24 UTC
It's astonishing to me that you even petitioned it when it is so very, very clearly an acceptable event. It's also rather impressive that you're still going to try and escalate it even though we've told you for nearly 60 pages why its fine, pointed to all the relevant statements by CCP, and you yourself have now been directly told by GMs that its ok.

Some people are just completely belligerent and unwilling to accept that they just lost.

It wont be long now before they claim they're vanishing off to play WoW, and EVE is doomed to fail as a result of this heinous cruelty
Benny Ohu
Chaotic Tranquility
#1144 - 2013-07-08 22:02:19 UTC
no when the gms clearly and specifically said bumping was not an exploit they were obviously joking

those kidders, am i right? hahaha
Darth Gustav
Sith Interstellar Tech Harvesting
#1145 - 2013-07-08 22:04:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Darth Gustav
TheGunslinger42 wrote:
It's astonishing to me that you even petitioned it when it is so very, very clearly an acceptable event. It's also rather impressive that you're still going to try and escalate it even though we've told you for nearly 60 pages why its fine, pointed to all the relevant statements by CCP, and you yourself have now been directly told by GMs that its ok.

Some people are just completely belligerent and unwilling to accept that they just lost.

It wont be long now before they claim they're vanishing off to play WoW, and EVE is doomed to fail as a result of this heinous cruelty


A forum page for every minute the OP was bumped.

A laugh for every ISK the OP lost.

And yes, quoted GM responses are clearly defined as against the rules.

So what we have here is basically an exploiter complaining about non-exploits being exploited while breaking actual rules trying to make his case.

He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom

Darth Gustav
Sith Interstellar Tech Harvesting
#1146 - 2013-07-08 22:12:47 UTC
Let's get this thread up to 3600+ posts so we can have:

A POST FOR EVERY SECOND THIS COMEDY WENT ON!

He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom

Mag's
Azn Empire
#1147 - 2013-07-08 22:17:20 UTC
E-2C Hawkeye wrote:
Consensual or not it doesnt matter. What does matter is there is no fight until the freighter is aggressed so the mechanic of bumping does not produce aggression. Anyone should not be allowed to waste an hour or more of my time with no aggression.

Bump me if you need to but do it in what should be deternibed by ccp as an acceptable time frame then blow me up and let me get on with my game.

Keeping me tied to game with no aggression timer and no options after a certain point should be defined as griefing per CCP.

How does someone keep you tied to the game, with no aggression timer? Are they cloaked and AFK when they do this? We would all love to know.

Oh and CCP has ruled, guess what........ Blink

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.

Darth Gustav
Sith Interstellar Tech Harvesting
#1148 - 2013-07-08 22:24:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Darth Gustav
E-2C Hawkeye wrote:
Consensual or not it doesnt matter. What does matter is there is no fight until the freighter is aggressed so the mechanic of bumping does not produce aggression. Anyone should not be allowed to waste an hour or more of my time with no aggression.

Bump me if you need to but do it in what should be deternibed by ccp as an acceptable time frame then blow me up and let me get on with my game.

Keeping me tied to game with no aggression timer and no options after a certain point should be defined as griefing per CCP.



Honestly, if you're being kept tied to Eve Online for an hour longer than you intended because some guys were setting you up for a loss you didn't have the friends or the skill to prevent, I suspect you've got other issues besides the game mechanics of bumping spaceships on the internet.

If you're going to take a loss anyway, why stay logged in? Why not go outside to reflect on the joys of life instead of wallowing in the extension of your own defeat?

Bumping is not an exploit.

Addiction seems be a powerful motivator. In this case it's motivating you to believe you're being griefed when, in fact, you are just being beaten. Learn to walk away.

That's, in all honesty, the best advice you can get given what is written here.

He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom

Callyuk
M1A12 Corp
#1149 - 2013-07-08 22:29:57 UTC
Well you are all right so far :) In game rules you got me there. I don't think anyone would have seen the aggression by noob toons coming. And no i don't know the forum rules since im not a forum whore and this is my first time (other than Char Brazzar) on the forum since i started playing eve i'm learning them one ban at a time. As for the petition i still think they (how about abused instead of exploited) the mechanics. Since its been confirmed by CCP there was no exploit lets use abused instead .
Darth Gustav
Sith Interstellar Tech Harvesting
#1150 - 2013-07-08 22:34:05 UTC
Callyuk wrote:
Well you are all right so far :) In game rules you got me there. I don't think anyone would have seen the aggression by noob toons coming. And no i don't know the forum rules since im not a forum ***** and this is my first time (other than Char Brazzar) on the forum since i started playing eve i'm learning them one ban at a time. As for the petition i still think they (how about abused instead of exploited) the mechanics. Since its been confirmed by CCP there was no exploit lets use abused instead .

Nope.

They USED the game mechanics. Say it with me. No, not, "Abused."

"Used." There, good.

Regarding the forum rules. They are posted and easily accessible at the top of EVERY PAGE. You can write, so you're obviously literate. Read the rules before you break the rules. Sort of like how, regarding this thread's OP Topic, you would have benefitted greatly from reading the rules in the first place, too, before playing the game.

He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom

Callyuk
M1A12 Corp
#1151 - 2013-07-08 23:29:35 UTC
Im just going to wait on the reply from the next petition . If they say everything is legit im not going to try to escalate it etc. I will start ganking freighters tho and get my isk back . This will be my last post . Im done with the forums for now .
WonkySplitDemon
Doomheim
#1152 - 2013-07-08 23:32:32 UTC
Callyuk wrote:
Im just going to wait on the reply from the next petition . If they say everything is legit im not going to try to escalate it etc. I will start ganking freighters tho and get my isk back . This will be my last post . Im done with the forums for now .



hahahahahaahahahahhahahaahaha
CCP Eterne
C C P
C C P Alliance
#1153 - 2013-07-09 11:37:24 UTC
I have deleted some posting of GM communication from this thread.

EVE Online/DUST 514 Community Representative ※ EVE Illuminati ※ Fiction Adept

@CCP_Eterne ※ @EVE_LiveEvents

Eram Fidard
Doomheim
#1154 - 2013-07-09 11:40:28 UTC
Callyuk wrote:
Im just going to wait on the reply from the next petition . If they say everything is legit im not going to try to escalate it etc. I will start ganking freighters tho and get my isk back . This will be my last post . Im done with the forums for now .



Huzzah!

Hear Hear!

Well Said!

Poster is not to be held responsible for damages to keyboards and/or noses caused by hot beverages.

Sheshou Huxunan
Perkone
Caldari State
#1155 - 2013-07-09 12:24:31 UTC
Next time, activate Quit or Log Off from the settings menu so that you may trigger an "emergency warp".

If you do not know what this is:-

Emergency Warp
Protection for players who have disconnected unintentionally for any reason.

Your ship is warped to an inaccessible location, at which point your ship is unavailable (account offline).
Subsequently, upon logging in, you are auto-warped to the location of your disconnection.

There is an exception such that, if you disconnect mid-warp, you are returned to your warp-origin rather than your warp-destination.*

*This may have changed as it has been a while since I experienced the feature mid-warp.

NOTE WELL: "Emergency warp" is only effective for those who are not already affected by some an aggression timer that has anti-warp or anti-log off properties, such as a "Criminal Timer" in high-security space.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#1156 - 2013-07-09 13:39:38 UTC
In what way was this not explained to you, that posting GM communications is thoroughly against forum rules?

The ISDs are going to swallow you whole.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#1157 - 2013-07-09 15:12:16 UTC
The GM has spoken.

Time to find a new topic =)

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.

Doc Fury
Furious Enterprises
#1158 - 2013-07-09 15:14:15 UTC
This is the thread that never ends.
It just goes on and on my friends.
Some players started posting in it not knowing what it was,
And they'll continue posting in it forever just because . . .

There's a million angry citizens looking down their tubes..at me.

RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#1159 - 2013-07-09 15:15:27 UTC
Doc Fury wrote:
This is the thread that never ends.
It just goes on and on my friends.
Some players started posting in it not knowing what it was,
And they'll continue posting in it forever just because . . .

This is the thread that never ends.
It just goes on and on my friends.
Some players started posting in it not knowing what it was,
And they'll continue posting in it forever just because . . .

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon

Kijo Rikki
Killboard Padding Services
#1160 - 2013-07-09 15:19:39 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:
Doc Fury wrote:
This is the thread that never ends.
It just goes on and on my friends.
Some players started posting in it not knowing what it was,
And they'll continue posting in it forever just because . . .

This is the thread that never ends.
It just goes on and on my friends.
Some players started posting in it not knowing what it was,
And they'll continue posting in it forever just because . . .

This is the thread that never ends.
It just goes on and on my friends.
Some players started posting in it not knowing what it was,
And they'll continue posting in it forever just because . . .

You make a valid point, good Sir or Madam.