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Small and Medium Beam Lasers
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Randy Wray
Warcrows
Sedition.
#1 - 2013-07-08 21:56:50 UTC
I think small and medium beam lasers are in a very bad position right now and the community seems to agree since I barely ever see small and medium beam lasers used anymore especially since tachyon oracles made beamlots obsolete.

Large beam lasers are alright and commonly used on oracles and pve fit battleships. Small and medium ones however offer subpar damage output at similar range as the scorch ammo for pulse lasers. I think the small and medium beam lasers need some way of standing out from pulses as the fact that scorch is so good makes them irrelevant.

For example if you put dual light beam lasers on a tormentor and load navy multifrequency, you get a 105 dps at 6,6+3,8km.(all lvl 5 skills) With dual light pulse lasers and scorch you get 99 dps at 10+1,9 and alot better tracking. So if you're close up the pulse laser is better and if you're at the edge of scram range pulse lasers are better aswell. If you load long range ammo into the dual light beam laser you get such puny dps you're better of loading scorch into pulse lasers and stacking range mods if you're planning on fighting outside scram range.

Medium beam lasers aren't much better off. Quad light lasers are what they sound like, pretty much frigate guns. Focused beams are a little better but still arent even close to being able to compete with even focused pulse lasers loaded with scorch. Heavy beam lasers take up a shitton of fitting for what they offer. If you put heavy pulse lasers on an omen navy issue and load scorch you get 37+6km range and 330 dps with a tracking enhancer and 3 heat sinks fitted. With Heavy beam lasers you need to load navy gamma or xray to get similar range and then you have about 330 dps at 31+12 with gamma or 300 dps at 37+12 with xray while getting half as good tracking as pulse lasers (0.04 beams vs 0.08 pulses) and about 200 less powergrid to play with.

Small and medium beams are in desperate need of a buff.

Solo Pvper in all areas of space including wormhole space. Check out my youtube channel @ http://www.youtube.com/channel/UCd6M3xV43Af-3E1ds0tTyew/feed for mostly small scale pvp in lowsec/nullsec

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God's Apples
Wilderness
IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII
#2 - 2013-07-08 22:01:12 UTC
Thanks captain obvious.

"Hydra Reloaded are just jealous / butthurt on me / us because we can get tons of PVP action in empire while they aren't good enough to get that." - NightmareX
Hakaimono
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#3 - 2013-07-08 22:08:35 UTC
Playerbase: plz buff beamz!
CCP: *nerfs Scorch*
VegasMirage
Blank-Space
Northern Coalition.
#4 - 2013-07-08 22:13:39 UTC
God's Apples wrote:
Thanks captain obvious.


about time CCP make an unlike option

stop thinking you're better than the next Apples, it's boring

+1 OP nice post way to contribute

no more games... it's real this time!!!
Jack Miton
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#5 - 2013-07-09 00:12:39 UTC
beams are no worse off than rails.
med beams used to be useful but tier3 BCs made them, and all other long range medium guns, totally obsolete.

There is no Bob.

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Taoist Dragon
Okata Syndicate
#6 - 2013-07-09 00:58:00 UTC
TBH I feel that most medium sized long range weaponry are is an awkward place right now.

They generally are eclipsed by the LR T2 ammo for short range weapons. (well apart from blasters as their range even with null is not long enough to encroach on rails.)

That is the Way, the Tao.

Balance is everything.
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#7 - 2013-07-09 01:44:00 UTC
Hakaimono wrote:
Playerbase: plz buff beamz!
CCP: *nerfs Scorch*


They should nerf scorch...


But they should also buff the beams..

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Denuo Secus
#8 - 2013-07-09 02:22:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Denuo Secus
Randy Wray wrote:
...For example if you put dual light beam lasers on a tormentor and load navy multifrequency, you get a 105 dps at 6,6+3,8km.(all lvl 5 skills) With dual light pulse lasers and scorch you get 99 dps at 10+1,9 and alot better tracking. So if you're close up the pulse laser is better and if you're at the edge of scram range pulse lasers are better aswell...


I think you miss an important point here. True, multi beams and scorch pulse are comparable in terms of DPS. But pulse have an option for more damage and better tracking at close range (multi or conflag) while beams have an option for longer range (aurora or radio). Pulse and beam lasers just "meet" in the middle ground. It depends on your tactic and combat situation what's preferable. Both have advantages and disadvantages.

Having said that, I think all medium long range guns could need a buff. Because of tier3 BCs and large turrets. Maybe a tracking or a signature resolution boost. Something to make medium long range turrets quite a bit more accurate so they have a true benefit compared to large turrets.

Garviel Tarrant wrote:
Hakaimono wrote:
Playerbase: plz buff beamz!
CCP: *nerfs Scorch*


They should nerf scorch...


But they should also buff the beams..


If Scorch would be nerfed, why use pulse lasers instead of blasters then? The tiny range advantage of this kind of pulses wouldn't compensate for less damage and far worse tracking imho.
Tsukino Stareine
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#9 - 2013-07-09 02:26:37 UTC
Imo just reduce all laser falloff to like 0 so theyre like missiles :D but obviously increase their optimals accordingly

Art of Explosions
Whitehound
#10 - 2013-07-09 07:54:11 UTC
When you fit small and medium weapons onto your frigates and cruisers, use these to fight ABCs and BSs, then you do not need a buff. What you need is to ask yourself: why am I not flying the bigger ship with the bigger guns?

Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.
Froggy Storm
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#11 - 2013-07-09 09:11:13 UTC
Correct me if I am wrong, but it looks like you are comparing T2 pulse to T1 beam. If you use scorch crystal you are obviously using a T2 pulse. Being at work I don't have EFT in front of me, so what does the T2 w/scorch compare to T2 beam with (whatever) the close range crystals?

Also I do realize that it is near impossible to fit full set of T2 beams. This is where a tweek might be relevant to bring the T2 long range systems in line.
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#12 - 2013-07-09 09:51:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Garviel Tarrant
Denuo Secus wrote:
Randy Wray wrote:
...For example if you put dual light beam lasers on a tormentor and load navy multifrequency, you get a 105 dps at 6,6+3,8km.(all lvl 5 skills) With dual light pulse lasers and scorch you get 99 dps at 10+1,9 and alot better tracking. So if you're close up the pulse laser is better and if you're at the edge of scram range pulse lasers are better aswell...


I think you miss an important point here. True, multi beams and scorch pulse are comparable in terms of DPS. But pulse have an option for more damage and better tracking at close range (multi or conflag) while beams have an option for longer range (aurora or radio). Pulse and beam lasers just "meet" in the middle ground. It depends on your tactic and combat situation what's preferable. Both have advantages and disadvantages.

Having said that, I think all medium long range guns could need a buff. Because of tier3 BCs and large turrets. Maybe a tracking or a signature resolution boost. Something to make medium long range turrets quite a bit more accurate so they have a true benefit compared to large turrets.

Garviel Tarrant wrote:
Hakaimono wrote:
Playerbase: plz buff beamz!
CCP: *nerfs Scorch*


They should nerf scorch...


But they should also buff the beams..


If Scorch would be nerfed, why use pulse lasers instead of blasters then? The tiny range advantage of this kind of pulses wouldn't compensate for less damage and far worse tracking imho.



You wouldn't just nerf scorch you silly bugger

Nerf scorch and then rebalance amarr laser boat in accordance. That way maybe we could have an amarr lineup that doesn't entirely rely on scorch.

Edit: And to froggy if memory serves Scorch generally outdps's beams at 20km on range bonused frig hulls and pretty much all medium hulls.

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#13 - 2013-07-09 11:04:05 UTC
Jack Miton wrote:
beams are no worse off than rails.
med beams used to be useful but tier3 BCs made them, and all other long range medium guns, totally obsolete.


Pretty much this

removed inappropriate ASCII art signature - CCP Eterne
Randy Wray
Warcrows
Sedition.
#14 - 2013-07-09 11:05:42 UTC

Denuo Secus wrote:
Randy Wray wrote:
...For example if you put dual light beam lasers on a tormentor and load navy multifrequency, you get a 105 dps at 6,6+3,8km.(all lvl 5 skills) With dual light pulse lasers and scorch you get 99 dps at 10+1,9 and alot better tracking. So if you're close up the pulse laser is better and if you're at the edge of scram range pulse lasers are better aswell...


I think you miss an important point here. True, multi beams and scorch pulse are comparable in terms of DPS. But pulse have an option for more damage and better tracking at close range (multi or conflag) while beams have an option for longer range (aurora or radio). Pulse and beam lasers just "meet" in the middle ground. It depends on your tactic and combat situation what's preferable. Both have advantages and disadvantages.

Having said that, I think all medium long range guns could need a buff. Because of tier3 BCs and large turrets. Maybe a tracking or a signature resolution boost. Something to make medium long range turrets quite a bit more accurate so they have a true benefit compared to large turrets.
The problem is the tech 2 ammos for beam lasers are ****. Aurora has puny dps and still doesnt range as well as railguns. Sniper coercer for facwar plexes is the only ship I can think of where aurora could be used effecitvely and it gets about half the range of a sniper cormorant with spike, does get 30 more dps however but the beam lasers drain your cap pretty badly. I agree with you though, all medium long range guns need some manner of change because they're not as effective as attack battlecruisers in long range and are usually eclipsed by the mid range capabilities of short range guns.

Maybe one way to go at it would be to change barrage, scorch and null into high tracking ammo instead of long range and then buff the midrange capabilities of all small-medium long range guns? Because I think a ship should be dedicated to brawling or kiting, if it can do both something is wrong. This is why ships like the cynabal and talos are so broken.

Solo Pvper in all areas of space including wormhole space. Check out my youtube channel @ http://www.youtube.com/channel/UCd6M3xV43Af-3E1ds0tTyew/feed for mostly small scale pvp in lowsec/nullsec

twitch.tv/randywray
Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
#15 - 2013-07-09 11:14:44 UTC
I think we're just going to have to wait for a T2 ammo rebalance.

Oh god.
Randy Wray
Warcrows
Sedition.
#16 - 2013-07-09 18:59:42 UTC
The primary reason I suggest the current long range tech 2 ammos to be changed into lower dps higher tracking is CCP fozzie mentioned during the fanfest keynote that they plan on making frigates harder to kill for bigger ships in the future. As a long time frigate pilot I think this would throw things out of balance as I'm already killing pvp fit battlecruisers in my enyo and it would be cool to have the option to decrease potential damage for damage application which is something that you don't really see among the turret ammunitions. For example there is nuclear/carbonized lead/proton ammo for projectiles but they're not really worth it since the damage reduction is far from proportional to the tracking you gain.

As a conclusion it seems like CCP has to go through and do a full ammo rebalance once they're done rebalancing the ships.

Solo Pvper in all areas of space including wormhole space. Check out my youtube channel @ http://www.youtube.com/channel/UCd6M3xV43Af-3E1ds0tTyew/feed for mostly small scale pvp in lowsec/nullsec

twitch.tv/randywray