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Market Scamming is an Exploit

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Lors Dornick
Kallisti Industries
#61 - 2013-07-07 20:52:32 UTC
Kalliel Egnald wrote:
However, this 'scam' is using an exploit...


No.

The player is using a fully documented and well understood mechanic.

A mechanic that works exactly as intended.

Both when allowing a trader to put up large buy orders without having to lock down precious float and when allowing a clever trader to trick a careless trader out of some cash.

CCP Greyscale: As to starbases, we agree it's pretty terrible, but we don't want to delay the entire release just for this one factor.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#62 - 2013-07-07 20:58:37 UTC
Kalliel Egnald wrote:
Cipher Jones wrote:
So, we've illustrated how its a scam.

Since not even the OP has attempted to illustrate how its an exploit can we close this rumor thread?


bypassing the in game rule-set for buy orders due to the limitations of the player wallet.
i think i illustrated the exploit quiet well.

the argument many of these people are discussing is the severity of said exploit, and most are dismissing it as something that is harmless due to its limited prevalence currently in the game.



What part of the in-game ruleset for buy orders is being bypassed?
You have not illustrated any such thing.

Nope, it's simply not an exploit. Buy orders can be canceled or filled at any time for many reasons. When investing, your protection from this is knowing how much the item is worth and avoiding overpaying.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Mag's
Azn Empire
#63 - 2013-07-07 21:46:40 UTC
Kalliel Egnald wrote:
i have a feeling you are misunderstanding.
No it is you that is not understanding the mechanic and claiming it as an exploit. Of which it is not.
Point in fact follows.
Kalliel Egnald wrote:
the exploit in question is utilizing something to bypass current in game rule sets on buy orders via the player wallet.
I rest my case.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings
#64 - 2013-07-07 22:44:43 UTC
I just want to know how much OP got scammed for. The only people that start these threads are whiny babies who are naive enough to fall for the scam, so OP must fall into that category.

Did they get your life savings, OP?

A month worth of level 4 missions?

Inquiring minds want to know.
sabre906
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#65 - 2013-07-07 22:59:37 UTC  |  Edited by: sabre906
Orbelea wrote:
sabre906 wrote:
This is CCP's incomplete imitation of rl. It offers action, but not consequence. Margin trading adds nothing to a game other than market disruptions. Implementing some kind of "Eve jail" just to imitate rl completely enough to facilitate margin trading is a waste of manhours. Just remove it, and nothing of value will be lost.Roll



This is a whole different point, scamming is allowed by CCP,in RL it's illegal. This is a game that allows scamming, same as chess allows killing pieces on a board without consequence. This has nothing to do with the margin trading skill.


What makes you think ppl don't get away with scamming irl all the time?Lol Irl, it has to do with how much, how it's done, and by who. It's a grey area.

Eve already imitates life. For example, most PLEX contract scammers in Eve get away with it, but if you ask the guy banned for scamming a noob out of a dozen plex, he'll recount a different experience. Why have a game mechanics that adds to this ambiguity more than you have to?

Margin trading adds nothing of value to a mmo - there's no point in creating this grey area/can of worms. Not everything irl should be imitated into a mmo, not everything irl makes good game mechanics.
Logical Chaos
Very Italian People
The Initiative.
#66 - 2013-07-07 23:09:39 UTC
Its just one of those newbfilters in EVE that should rather not be removed (since too many got removed already).

All those Margin Trading Scams are easily spotted mostly by the full ****** line "omfg huge mistake in market, I wish I had the money" or the simple "If it's too good to be true it's probably not true".
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings
#67 - 2013-07-07 23:11:10 UTC
sabre906 wrote:


Margin trading adds nothing of value to a mmo - there's no point in creating this grey area/can of worms. Not everything irl should be imitated into a mmo, not everything irl makes good game mechanics, margin trading is one of them.


There is no gray area, and no can of worms. I'm pretty sure you'd **** bricks if you saw just how much of EVE's trade is propped up on Margin Trading calls; to say it adds nothing of value is absurd.

The margin trading scam is not an exploit, in any way, form, or fashion. CCP has never deemed it to be an exploit, and so it is not. There is no way that it could be. I can put up a buy order for whatever I want, at whatever price I want. The protection for a seller and for myself results in the fact that the sale will fail if I can't cover it with the contents of my wallet. They lose no product, I lose no money. That's all the protection that's needed for anyone from a margin buy order.

It's not my problem if the seller was stupid enough, or more likely blinded enough by their own greed, to pay far more for an item than it is realistically worth, attempting to sell it to my overpriced buy order. I didn't click their mouse; they did, in spite of every common sense and in-game warning to do otherwise.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#68 - 2013-07-07 23:13:32 UTC
sabre906 wrote:
Margin trading adds nothing of value to a mmo
…except the ability to use your ISK more effectively when you're into heavy trading, by not having it all tied up in long-term deals. Since it's designed in such a way that neither party can ever be cheated out of their belongings, it adds a fair bit of value and there's no reason to remove it.

Quote:
there's no point in creating this grey area/can of worms.
What grey area?

Quote:
not everything irl makes good game mechanics, margin trading is one of them.
Actual margin trading would be really fun if implemented as a game mechanic. The trick would be to do it without opening up for some pretty severe ISK duping exploits.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#69 - 2013-07-07 23:13:40 UTC
sabre906 wrote:
Margin trading adds nothing of value to a mmo - there's no point in creating this grey area/can of worms. Not everything irl should be imitated into a mmo, not everything irl makes good game mechanics, margin trading is one of them.


Nothing's grey, nothing's wormy, and you've yet to make a coherent argument for why "Margin trading adds nothing of value to a mmo"

Margin Trading is an incredibly useful skill for traders. Especially newer ones who have less capital to work with.
The "Margin Trade" scam (ignoring the fact that scams are perfectly legitimate gameplay in EVE) has very little to do with the margin trading skill, and everything to do with tricking people into buying overpriced goods (exactly the same as the "Trit for 5 ISK/unit" contracts). If you didn't buy something for more than it's worth, you'd simply shrug when the first buy order failed and sell to the second, as you still have your stuff.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Mytai Gengod
Sebees
#70 - 2013-07-07 23:24:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Mytai Gengod
In the real world, where this margin trading borrows it's name and seems to be loosely modeled after, once your "wallet" falls below a certain threshold, the firm that is providing the margin will immediately sell your positions, without concern to sell price, to meet your obligations and may permanently close your account. Some times there can be charges filed if there was additional fraudulent behavior related to the margin trading.

Abusing this market tool is risk free in Eve. I don't expect nor want CCP to remove it as some are asking, but consequences for those abusing it would make sense.
sabre906
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#71 - 2013-07-07 23:30:31 UTC  |  Edited by: sabre906
Mytai Gengod wrote:
In the real world, where this margin trading borrows it's name and seems to be loosely modeled after, the firm that is providing the margin will immediately sell your positions, without concern to sell price, to meet your obligations and may permanently close your account. Some times there can be charges filed if there was additional fraudulent behavior related to the margin trading.

Abusing this market tool is risk free in Eve. I don't expect nor want CCP to remove it as some are asking, but consequences for those abusing it would make sense.



That's my point. CCP doesn't want the mass banning and/or SP removal that's necessary to implement consequence. It's not worth doing. Not everything irl can be translated sucessfully into a mmo to make good game mechanics. Margin trading is a prime example. This can of worms should be thrown out, not opened and made into soup...
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings
#72 - 2013-07-07 23:33:19 UTC
Mytai Gengod wrote:

Abusing this market tool is risk free in Eve. I don't expect nor want CCP to remove it as some are asking, but consequences for those abusing it would make sense.



Define 'abusing,' since no one is harmed by a failed buy order. There's no risk to anyone.

A good tenet of resale (especially high dollar items) is that you make your profit at time of purchase (or manufacture). If you don't have enough wiggle room to turn some profit no matter what in a mostly stable market, then you have lost money before you ever made your first bungled sale.

If someone buys up a whole bunch of crap for at or above market price with the intention that they will then turn around and sell it even further above market price, then they have already set themselves up for any potential failure. The awesome overpriced market order they intend to sell to may even be real. What happens if someone else fills it first? Have they been 'scammed?' Not really, but they're still left holding the bag of expensive goods, just the same as if they were. Somehow, people in EVE will find a way for this to also be anyone's fault but their own.
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings
#73 - 2013-07-07 23:38:02 UTC
sabre906 wrote:
Margin trading is a prime example. This can of worms should be thrown out, not opened and made into soup...


There is no can of worms. There is no risk to either party as a result of the margin trading skill, and therefore there can be no consequence levied on either. If someone suffered a loss due to a 'scam,' they suffered it at the moment they purchased product above market price, not when the buy order they intended to take advantage of failed.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#74 - 2013-07-07 23:41:31 UTC
sabre906 wrote:
Mytai Gengod wrote:
In the real world, where this margin trading borrows it's name and seems to be loosely modeled after, the firm that is providing the margin will immediately sell your positions, without concern to sell price, to meet your obligations and may permanently close your account. Some times there can be charges filed if there was additional fraudulent behavior related to the margin trading.

Abusing this market tool is risk free in Eve. I don't expect nor want CCP to remove it as some are asking, but consequences for those abusing it would make sense.



That's my point. CCP doesn't want the mass banning and/or SP removal that's necessary to implement consequence. It's not worth doing. Not everything irl can be translated sucessfully into a mmo to make good game mechanics. Margin trading is a prime example. This can of worms should be thrown out, not opened and made into soup...



Good thing RL margin trading has not been introduced into EVE.
RL Margin Trading: Borrow Money, buy things with it.
EVE Margin Trading: Only put a portion of the cost of an order into Escrow, Pay the whole amount before being able to actually buy anything.

The only thing they have in common are the words "Margin Trading" and one of those words is dependent on an uncommon phraseology in the RL example.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Alice Saki
Nocturnal Romance
Cynosural Field Theory.
#75 - 2013-07-07 23:43:32 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
These things stick out like pink lighthouses on fire.



Oh I'm sure a yellow lighthouse on fire would still stick out CoolP

FREEZE! Drop the LIKES AND WALK AWAY! - Currenly rebuilding gaming machine, I will Return.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#76 - 2013-07-08 00:02:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Mytai Gengod wrote:
Abusing this market tool is risk free in Eve.
How is it being abused and how does losing a ton of ISK qualify as “risk-free”?

There is definite risk for the buyer: he may lose his order and all the fees that go into it without getting the goods. For the seller, there is no risk at all. So why should there be more risk (for either side) than there already is?

sabre906 wrote:
That's my point. CCP doesn't want the mass banning and/or SP removal that's necessary to implement consequence.
Eh. None of those are consequences — those are player punishments for cheating and exploitation. Of course they're not going to apply those to legitimate gameplay. There are definite consequences for bad use of the margin trading ability…

Quote:
Not everything irl can be translated sucessfully into a mmo to make good game mechanics. Margin trading is a prime example. This can of worms should be thrown out, not opened and made into soup.
Again, margin trading would be a really interesting mechanic if translated into game mechanics, but that's not what the skill is doing. And what can of worms are you talking about? You have still not explained this.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#77 - 2013-07-08 00:13:22 UTC
Tippia wrote:
And what can of worms are you talking about? You have still not explained this.


This can.

On contracts for 1 ISK. Split it up and sell to my 2 ISK/worm buy order. Big smile

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings
#78 - 2013-07-08 00:18:30 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:
Tippia wrote:
And what can of worms are you talking about? You have still not explained this.


This can.

On contracts for 1 ISK. Split it up and sell to my 2 ISK/worm buy order. Big smile


This isn't cool. I didn't realize that your can only has 16 worms, and the awesome overpriced buy order is for 32 minimum. Now I have a 1 ISK can of worms that only goes for .5 ISK on the marketplace.

I feel cheated.
Eram Fidard
Doomheim
#79 - 2013-07-08 00:24:54 UTC
You've missed the point entirely OP. I know this has already been said many times, but here it is again.

The scam is not "exploiting" the market order.

The scam is "exploiting" players' greed and lack of common sense.

Like every other scam in existence, if you simply do the tiniest modicum of research, you will see the glaring hole.

In this case, the "research" is quite literally a single click away from the scam.


So...what exactly was this post meant to do? Propose a solution to the perceived problem? I don't see one. Generate discussion? The topic has been discussed to hell and back, with never a single intelligent thought on how, or why one would do away with this scam.

You are an insular player-type with limited knowledge of the game, and yet consider yourself capable of generating an informed opinion from your own understanding. That is exactly the same type of person who would fall for a margin scam.

I have something you should read before you post such drivel again: http://imgur.com/NOTa2Pf

Poster is not to be held responsible for damages to keyboards and/or noses caused by hot beverages.
Gilat Sumat
Doomheim
#80 - 2013-07-08 01:25:00 UTC
Why even allow characters to even post a buy orders if they were never going to have enough isk in their wallets for the transaction? I understand the margin trading skill can somewhat put-off the full payment of the order when placed but the whole transaction should somehow be covered before it’s listed.

The example presented by Rhivre brings up a valid point of wasting new traders and couriers time… I wonder if Chribba ran his transaction service like this.