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At what point is something an Exploit and not game Mechanics ? Bumped for 60 Minutes

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Elizabeth Aideron
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#921 - 2013-07-06 19:36:18 UTC
S Byerley wrote:
What's the matter, too risk averse to war?


you and i both know the freighter alts would drop to npc corp at once if that became a problem

Quote:

Quote:
…except that by reducing the scanning time to half, it's been reduced to by a couple of seconds. So we'll reduce the timer by that amount — to 14 minute, 58 seconds… or let's just say 15 to round it off to something easy to remember.


Perhaps you can explain to me why you need 15 minutes to scan down a target if it only take a few seconds - more ganker entitlement?


read the quote again
Elizabeth Aideron
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#922 - 2013-07-06 19:37:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Elizabeth Aideron
Murk Paradox wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:


The mechanic applied to the freighter doesn't apply to any other ship (until it is applied).

So, if a freighter is aggressed, and has a timer on it, it doesn't matter what ship comes to help because that freighter still has a timer on it.

Period.

Unless you wish to insinuate a blackbird or any other ship, could simply remove that timer? No, I did not think so.

Whether it is a multiplayer or not, noone is forced to do anything. You aren't forced to gank, that freighter isn't forced to transport solo.

Those choices have no relevance of the mechanics applied to the ship and the innate abilities (or lack thereof) the ship has for it's defense.

Which is also how the mechanics were manipulated and abused against a freighter, as opposed to say.... a cruiser or barge who could fight back, even at the cost of losing.


Blackbird jams a handful of the destroyers and the gank fails. Bring a t1 armour logi and you will have the freighter fully repped and able to take even more damage on a second run with the blackbird ready too.

Two ships is all it takes.

Also once again no mechanics were abused in this case, everything is working as intended by CCP.


None of that has anything to do with the freighter. The freighter has none of any of those abilities, nor does it have any drones or anything else those ships have. It's special in this case, as it were.


and so single ship can suicide gank a freighter
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#923 - 2013-07-06 19:37:57 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:
The mechanic applied to the freighter doesn't apply to any other ship (until it is applied).
Eh… all mechanics apply equally to all ships. It being a freighter makes no difference.

Quote:
So, if a freighter is aggressed, and has a timer on it, it doesn't matter what ship comes to help because that freighter still has a timer on it.

Period.

Unless you wish to insinuate a blackbird or any other ship, could simply remove that timer?
No, he's insinuating that a Blackbird or any other ship could make the gank fail.

Quote:
Which is also how the mechanics were manipulated and abused against a freighter, as opposed to say.... a cruiser or barge who could fight back, even at the cost of losing.
A cruiser or barge would meat no different an end than the freighter in that case.



Except being able to warp off, or fight back. Which is what you're saying the freighter could do.

Which it can't.

Because it is like every other ship except for every other ship.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
S Byerley
The Manhattan Engineer District
#924 - 2013-07-06 19:39:59 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Let's not do that, and instead assume that the null hypothesis is “no, you can't do that [with the suggested equipment and methods].”


But that's not what he said? he said -

"Quantum state computing is essentially a pre-requisite for the kind of pattern analysis you're looking for"

and

"The current leading edge in this area is a kind-of multi-tiered pattern analysis, which is many steps below what you need to model the actual why of the origin of the data."

(Both of which are nonsense incidentally)

Quote:
If you want to claim otherwise, you have to provide evidence — something you've failed to do.


I did provide evidence; you just think you can bait me by constantly claiming it's insufficient.

Quote:
you still need proof to show that it's ill-formed. Either way, it's your duty to provide that proof.


"But evolution is just a theeeeeeeeory"

Quote:
Where I said that it's a bigger problem? Ok, we'll call the two equal. Better?


Nah, the part where you said un-referenced claims are wrong by default. Even ignoring your love for making un-referenced claims of your own, that's just a silly argument.
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#925 - 2013-07-06 19:40:59 UTC
Elizabeth Aideron wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:


The mechanic applied to the freighter doesn't apply to any other ship (until it is applied).

So, if a freighter is aggressed, and has a timer on it, it doesn't matter what ship comes to help because that freighter still has a timer on it.

Period.

Unless you wish to insinuate a blackbird or any other ship, could simply remove that timer? No, I did not think so.

Whether it is a multiplayer or not, noone is forced to do anything. You aren't forced to gank, that freighter isn't forced to transport solo.

Those choices have no relevance of the mechanics applied to the ship and the innate abilities (or lack thereof) the ship has for it's defense.

Which is also how the mechanics were manipulated and abused against a freighter, as opposed to say.... a cruiser or barge who could fight back, even at the cost of losing.


Blackbird jams a handful of the destroyers and the gank fails. Bring a t1 armour logi and you will have the freighter fully repped and able to take even more damage on a second run with the blackbird ready too.

Two ships is all it takes.

Also once again no mechanics were abused in this case, everything is working as intended by CCP.


None of that has anything to do with the freighter. The freighter has none of any of those abilities, nor does it have any drones or anything else those ships have. It's special in this case, as it were.


and so single ship can suicide gank a freigher



I don't understand the relevance. Any ship can suicide gank a freighter.

Except another freighter. Because a freighter cannot induce an aggression timer.

Because of it's likeness to "any other ship in the game".

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
S Byerley
The Manhattan Engineer District
#926 - 2013-07-06 19:41:21 UTC
TheGunslinger42 wrote:
S Byerley you still haven't answered my questions :(


I have.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#927 - 2013-07-06 19:41:59 UTC
S Byerley wrote:
If by "not said anything of the kind" you mean directly implied it via tone and context; as opposed to your completely illogical deductions regarding intent
…then still no. All PvP is good and equal. The only thing they really care about is abuse of mechanics and exploits.

Quote:
Perhaps you can explain to me why you need 15 minutes to scan down a target if it only take a few seconds - more ganker entitlement?
Because it's not 15 minutes to scan down a target. It's 15 minutes to allow for aggressing him, him warping out, you calling in a scanning ship, scanning him down, warping to the spot, and then killing him.

Quote:
But if you're actively attacking him the timer is getting refreshed anyway?
They've wavered back and forth on this. During some periods in the history of log-off timers, you could not refresh existing timers once the target logged off; during others you could. Either way, making it a blank 15 minutes gives enough time no matter what and makes it easy to remember regardless of the current state of refreshability.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#928 - 2013-07-06 19:42:50 UTC
Murk Paradox wrote:


None of that has anything to do with the freighter. The freighter has none of any of those abilities, nor does it have any drones or anything else those ships have. It's special in this case, as it were.


So because the hull is specialised it should be exempt from some game mechanics?

In that case I want my megathron to be exempt from warp bubbles and bombs because I cannot use them on that hull.
Elizabeth Aideron
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#929 - 2013-07-06 19:43:21 UTC
Murk Paradox wrote:
Elizabeth Aideron wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:


The mechanic applied to the freighter doesn't apply to any other ship (until it is applied).

So, if a freighter is aggressed, and has a timer on it, it doesn't matter what ship comes to help because that freighter still has a timer on it.

Period.

Unless you wish to insinuate a blackbird or any other ship, could simply remove that timer? No, I did not think so.

Whether it is a multiplayer or not, noone is forced to do anything. You aren't forced to gank, that freighter isn't forced to transport solo.

Those choices have no relevance of the mechanics applied to the ship and the innate abilities (or lack thereof) the ship has for it's defense.

Which is also how the mechanics were manipulated and abused against a freighter, as opposed to say.... a cruiser or barge who could fight back, even at the cost of losing.


Blackbird jams a handful of the destroyers and the gank fails. Bring a t1 armour logi and you will have the freighter fully repped and able to take even more damage on a second run with the blackbird ready too.

Two ships is all it takes.

Also once again no mechanics were abused in this case, everything is working as intended by CCP.


None of that has anything to do with the freighter. The freighter has none of any of those abilities, nor does it have any drones or anything else those ships have. It's special in this case, as it were.


and so single ship can suicide gank a freigher



I don't understand the relevance. Any ship can suicide gank a freighter.

Except another freighter. Because a freighter cannot induce an aggression timer.

Because of it's likeness to "any other ship in the game".


link the catalyst fit that can solo a freighter then
TheGunslinger42
All Web Investigations
#930 - 2013-07-06 19:46:40 UTC
S Byerley wrote:
TheGunslinger42 wrote:
S Byerley you still haven't answered my questions :(


I have.


Oh, my mistake. Where.

Where have you answered how those two identical-as-far-as-in-game-data situations can be differentiated? One is harassment, the other isn't.

Which page in this topic has the answer as to how to decide, without someone making a judgement call, which is harassment
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#931 - 2013-07-06 19:47:10 UTC
Tippia wrote:


Quote:
Perhaps you can explain to me why you need 15 minutes to scan down a target if it only take a few seconds - more ganker entitlement?
Because it's not 15 minutes to scan down a target. It's 15 minutes to allow for aggressing him, him warping out, you calling in a scanning ship, scanning him down, warping to the spot, and then killing him.




This is where I mentioned earlier, when this came up, that having diminishing returns would be a balance to ensure that proper punishment befalls the failure.

You should have 15 minutes and not be able to refresh the timer, to accomplish that act. (Of course you could have a second ship that has not aggressed in that time [say logi]) refresh that timer via drones...

Which again, each ship would be balanced by Concord punishing the wicked.

It fits neater, does not benefit any single person more than the other, and insures the need for both fleet activity, as well as PROPER coordination not just half assed "it's ok I can do this all day" mentality that meets the "htfu" status quo.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
TheGunslinger42
All Web Investigations
#932 - 2013-07-06 19:47:39 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:


None of that has anything to do with the freighter. The freighter has none of any of those abilities, nor does it have any drones or anything else those ships have. It's special in this case, as it were.


So because the hull is specialised it should be exempt from some game mechanics?

In that case I want my megathron to be exempt from warp bubbles and bombs because I cannot use them on that hull.


I would like my carrier to be immune from doomsdays please
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#933 - 2013-07-06 19:48:52 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:


None of that has anything to do with the freighter. The freighter has none of any of those abilities, nor does it have any drones or anything else those ships have. It's special in this case, as it were.


So because the hull is specialised it should be exempt from some game mechanics?

In that case I want my megathron to be exempt from warp bubbles and bombs because I cannot use them on that hull.



There's a subforum for that. Go post it then.

T3s can also be exempt from warp bubbles, so I guess it's up to you to tackle that beast.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#934 - 2013-07-06 19:49:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Murk Paradox wrote:
Except being able to warp off, or fight back. Which is what you're saying the freighter could do.
Again, you're reading too much into things. I said that the freighter can fight back (which it can), or that the pilot can leave.

And no, a cruiser or barge would not be able to warp off any more than a freighter can. The alignment rules apply to them as well. They can certainly fight back (again, in the same way the freighter can), but if they tried to shoot back — which I guess is what you're hinting at — they'd get CONCORDed and explode, which is what would be the final end for the freighter as well… so having weapons makes no real difference.

Well, ok, it makes one difference: it means the cruiser/barge pilot can be ganked once for free.

Quote:
Because it is like every other ship except for every other ship.
No. It's just like very other ship in that regard because none of the mechanics involved are in any way tied to a specific ship class.

Quote:
You should have 15 minutes and not be able to refresh the timer, to accomplish that act. (Of course you could have a second ship that has not aggressed in that time [say logi]) refresh that timer via drones...
Someone with more hands-on experience with this will have to correct me, but I think the final implementation of CW2.0 finally landed on not letting people refresh timers on logged-off targets… vOv
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#935 - 2013-07-06 19:50:27 UTC
Elizabeth Aideron wrote:


link the catalyst fit that can solo a freighter then


Put a civ gun on and find a freighter, make sure safety is set to atleast yellow, and fire.

Don't be mad if you cannot succeed, just rest easy in knowing you are able to try.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#936 - 2013-07-06 19:50:45 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
Murk Paradox wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:


None of that has anything to do with the freighter. The freighter has none of any of those abilities, nor does it have any drones or anything else those ships have. It's special in this case, as it were.


So because the hull is specialised it should be exempt from some game mechanics?

In that case I want my megathron to be exempt from warp bubbles and bombs because I cannot use them on that hull.



There's a subforum for that. Go post it then.

T3s can also be exempt from warp bubbles, so I guess it's up to you to tackle that beast.


You honestly don't see how stupid and gamebreaking your argument is do you?
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#937 - 2013-07-06 19:53:06 UTC
Murk Paradox wrote:
Put a civ gun on and find a freighter, make sure safety is set to atleast yellow, and fire.

Don't be mad if you cannot succeed, just rest easy in knowing you are able to try.
That certainly is one way of ensuring that you don't manage to gank him…
Elizabeth Aideron
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#938 - 2013-07-06 19:53:26 UTC
Murk Paradox wrote:
Elizabeth Aideron wrote:


link the catalyst fit that can solo a freighter then


Put a civ gun on and find a freighter, make sure safety is set to atleast yellow, and fire.

Don't be mad if you cannot succeed, just rest easy in knowing you are able to try.


so you don't have one (because it doesn't exist). ganking a freighter is a group activity by definition, its perfectly reasonable to have the freighters defense being calling for help
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#939 - 2013-07-06 19:54:00 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:
Except being able to warp off, or fight back. Which is what you're saying the freighter could do.
Again, you're reading too much into things. I said that the freighter can fight back (which it can), or that the pilot can leave.

And no, a cruiser or barge would not be able to warp off any more than a freighter can. The alignment rules apply to them as well. They can certainly fight back (again, in the same way the freighter can), but if they tried to shoot back — which I guess is what you're hinting at — they'd get CONCORDed and explode, which is what would be the final end for the freighter as well… so having weapons makes no real difference.

Well, ok, it makes one difference: it means the cruiser/barge pilot can be ganked once for free.

Quote:
Because it is like every other ship except for every other ship.
No. It's just like very other ship in that regard because none of the mechanics involved are in any way tied to a specific ship class.



What button do I press on the freighter to do this "fight back" option?

When I get home I'll try clicking all my modules and see which one allows me to.

It's not reading "too much" into understanding a simple fact that the ship cannot accomplish a certain task. I do not know why you think it can. It cannot.

Only the player can do it via asking for help. From someone else.

Every other action in game can be done by a solo player except for a freighter incurring an aggression timer (or LE timer for that matter).

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#940 - 2013-07-06 19:56:09 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:
Except being able to warp off, or fight back. Which is what you're saying the freighter could do.
Again, you're reading too much into things. I said that the freighter can fight back (which it can), or that the pilot can leave.

And no, a cruiser or barge would not be able to warp off any more than a freighter can. The alignment rules apply to them as well. They can certainly fight back (again, in the same way the freighter can), but if they tried to shoot back — which I guess is what you're hinting at — they'd get CONCORDed and explode, which is what would be the final end for the freighter as well… so having weapons makes no real difference.

Well, ok, it makes one difference: it means the cruiser/barge pilot can be ganked once for free.

Quote:
Because it is like every other ship except for every other ship.
No. It's just like very other ship in that regard because none of the mechanics involved are in any way tied to a specific ship class.

Quote:
You should have 15 minutes and not be able to refresh the timer, to accomplish that act. (Of course you could have a second ship that has not aggressed in that time [say logi]) refresh that timer via drones...
Someone with more hands-on experience with this will have to correct me, but I think the final implementation of CW2.0 finally landed on not letting people refresh timers on logged-off targets… vOv



Well that's not true. If someone shot at me while I'm flying a cruiser, I can most definitely shoot back without Concord interfering.

Beyond that I can most definitely align faster than you could keep me bumped if I was in a cruiser. The rules apply sure, but most definitely not at the same rate as the mass/velocities would be quite a bit different.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.