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Wormholes

 
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No major PVP driver in WH space

First post
Author
Nathan Jameson
Grumpy Bastards
#21 - 2013-07-04 11:57:26 UTC
Rek Seven wrote:
Shouldn't CCP accommodate entities who like big fleet fights, or should every corp just be 20 men strong ?


Just because you have a favorite play style doesn't mean CCP is required to base their content creation around you. Maybe you need to branch out some.

Personally, I am appalled at the lack of new content and tools created for pilots who like to spam scams in Jita local.

http://www.wormholes.info

Rek Seven
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#22 - 2013-07-04 12:05:45 UTC
Hey i like wormhole space to, hence me living here but many people agree that C6 wormhole pvp is stale/dead for the most part. I'm not even talking about low class wormholes because that works fine IMO.

I don't see anything wrong with talking with you guys about how things could be improved. The more we tell CCP that everything is fine, the more chance there is of us being here 2 years down the line without seeing any improvements and content adding to W-space.
Winthorp
#23 - 2013-07-04 12:16:20 UTC
Rek Seven wrote:
Hey i like wormhole space to, hence me living here but many people agree that C6 wormhole pvp is stale/dead for the most part. I'm not even talking about low class wormholes because that works fine IMO.

I don't see anything wrong with talking with you guys about how things could be improved. The more we tell CCP that everything is fine, the more chance there is of us being here 2 years down the line without seeing any improvements and content adding to W-space.


From my time in WH's there was so much PVP in lower class holes but sometimes you just couldn't take all the targets on. When i lived in C5's it was some of the most fun in WH's i have had, there was always PVP ranging from ****** ganks to small gang to sweet fleet fights.

From my time though C6 dwellers have never stopped whining, seriously though its true you all allowed the people you knelt down to and obeyed (cough Aharm cough) to evict all the non PVP entities and even those that didnt PVP you every single time you rolled into them even if they did PVP at other times. You all allowed that to happen in your 200 WH backyard and the barren C6 environment is what you reap for that.

If i ever go back to WH's C5's is where the fun is at.
Mr Kidd
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#24 - 2013-07-04 12:16:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Mr Kidd
Rek Seven wrote:
Hey i like wormhole space to, hence me living here but many people agree that C6 wormhole pvp is stale/dead for the most part. I'm not even talking about low class wormholes because that works fine IMO.

I don't see anything wrong with talking with you guys about how things could be improved. The more we tell CCP that everything is fine, the more chance there is of us being here 2 years down the line without seeing any improvements and content adding to W-space.


Look man, I wasn't trolling you. I just know you c5/6 guys like to cram people into your systems like sardines. You've got a lot of isk invested up there and want to protect it.

I've lived in the C5 environment. Hated it. Hated spending days looking for something to kill. Hated being one of too many. It's boring. It's political.

Seriously, you're going to laugh. I'm in a corp that up until last month was only 3 people + alts. Still, for our size, we get lots of pew. Sometimes, 2 to 1 against us and we still come out on top. Playing Ride of the Valkyrie over TS in route to fights we're sure we're gonna die and yelling "Fck yeah we made it!" when we don't. It's the most fun I've had in w-space. We've got open invitations to larger and higher end w-space alliances. But we don't do it because we're having fun! Consider that.

Why do you think TL split and half of them moved to a C2 and the rest of TL in C5 space is still breaking up?

Don't ban me, bro!

Nix Anteris
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#25 - 2013-07-04 12:21:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Nix Anteris
forum fucked up my post... can't be bothered to re-type.

Basically, the problem with higher class wormholes is that they are mainly occupied by farmers who use them as ISK printing machines to fund their lowsec/nullsec activities.

This is where a conflict driver is needed, to make them actually have to be active in their system more than a couple of nights a week, or they lose their system.

Also @MrKidd, there is also the problem that even if you have a small fleet, if you are from a "known" or large corporation, people will air on the side of caution, because they expect you to play dirty or have hidden numbers.

And the "You don't evict people who PVP" bullshit. Well people who actually PVP would *gasp* PVP to defend or die trying, not run around screaming for help from every other wormhole entity. Guess there's a lot less PVPers up here than we thought.
TunaKross
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#26 - 2013-07-04 12:34:10 UTC  |  Edited by: TunaKross
Guys, from the response that this thread has already, this is a valid topic for debate. So to let this thread live please keep the discussion civilized. To many posts are locked by the ISD's these days What?


Also, why don't you post with your main Mr. Kidd ?
Cab Tastic
Slartibartfast Coastlines Inc.
#27 - 2013-07-04 12:34:52 UTC
Mr Kidd wrote:
Rek Seven wrote:
Ever since I came to C6 wormhole space, i’ve felt like the OP does. After you kill a few caps and have a 30 man armour T3 brawl, you realise that this is pretty much all there is and other than the fun of a good fight, there is no real reason to fight.

I don’t think this is a player base problem, i think it’s a CCP problem. The only way to revitalise W-space and the pvp in it, would be for CCP to either add content or change the POS system.

For me the problem comes from the fact that if you role into someone looking for a fight but the people at home can’t or don’t want to fight, the attacker has two option; burn the system to the ground or go home and try again. The latter option being chosen 99% of the time.

So unless CCP and our CSM start looking at a wormhole expansion/update, there is little we can do about the situation.


'How long have you been in wspace? Apparently, not long enough. W-space is more populated now than it ever has been.

If you want a conflict driver, then I suggest you move out of your C6 and into a system that attaches to HS....yeah I know....it's not as cool as saying "I live in a C6 I'ma bad muthafcka". Noone wants to travel to your part of space. Now, you get a system with a HS and you have the opportunity to ruin whoever's day everytime they need a route to Jita. As a C2 dweller, I can't really help it if you C5/6 guys like to drop carriers on 3 man fleets when one of your T3's get face punched because obviously, noone from lower w-space can bring a cap fight. At that point, the fight is pretty much over....isn't it?

What you C5/6 guys want is a fight. What you bring is overpowering fleets with +3 guardians, ewar +10 T3's with caps in reserve. Noone from lower w-space is going to fight you because, in the end, you guys run back to your fortresses of solitude to the safety of your cap fleets.

Used to, long ago, we'd have you c6/c5 guys rolling into our C2's and locking down the systems. I don't see that anymore. That's for one of two reasons. One: We've just gotten so good at fighting you guys off or Two: You guys have become major bears. I tend to think it's the latter. You guys want the safety of numbers and frankly, w-space isn't necessarily about numbers.

Ultimately, what you C5/6 guys are looking for are large fleet battles so everyone can have fun. Nothing wrong with that. Problem is, you live in the least populated areas of w-space.....see the problem? You might consider moving to null or losec if you really want to fight....with caps. Otherwise, swallow your pride and move into lower end space. Down here we get pew almost daily and most of it comes right to us when people are looking for routes to hs.

As to a specific conflict driver for w-space, not sure w-space needs the losec/nullsec model.


Excellent post which mirrors my views
Evangelina Nolen
Sama Guild
#28 - 2013-07-04 12:36:15 UTC
Rek Seven wrote:


Change the black hole effect to something people are willing to deal with
Add new T3 mods that require WH moon goo
Add the chance of roaming effects in all wormholes without a static system effect
Add the ability to swap clones in W-space using a rorqual


These sound wonderful.

CCP should add tech 3 BS {balanced not OP like T3 cruisers} to spice things up.
Mr Kidd
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#29 - 2013-07-04 12:51:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Mr Kidd
TunaKross wrote:
Guys, from the response that this thread has already, this is a valid topic for debate. So to let this thread live please keep the discussion civilized. To many posts are locked by the ISD's these days What?


Also, why don't you post with your main Mr. Kidd ?


Because it's the exact same as posting with my alt....since you don't know who he is either. Why do you want me to post with my main? Does it somehow make my points any more valid? Does a logical idea become more logical when a main is involved?

Don't ban me, bro!

Joan Greywind
The Lazy Crabs
#30 - 2013-07-04 12:52:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Joan Greywind
Just a note because I saw it crop up in a bunch of posts. I am not saying that there isn't enough pvp in wh's or the mechanics or quality of the fights are not good. Like it or not, there is a limit of how much you can actually blob in wh space (although lately big fights are becoming more prelevant, I digress as this is not what the discussion is about). But it just seems all the fighting in WH space is done for the fun of it only, and that is in my opinion a broken mechanic. Imagine null space without sov, all of it just being npc space (I don't want sov in wh space, I am just drawing a comparison). There has to be a way where you actually can profit from your pvp if you are relatively better at it that the other wh dwellers, just like null sec. The core of this game is you risk your things to get rewarded with something else. This is completely non existent in WH pvp.

For example the trouble of going through evictions is mind boggling. Take huge risks, stop all your activities, find multiple entrances and exits to your hole, haul a bunch of ships in, without the other side knowing and then have hole control for 24/7 for a couple of days at least (if you are lucky). And mostly all you get is blue balls, and your enemies self destructing expensive ships in your face. After the recent patch you can't even get the items from the hangers. In null you have to fight for the right to live in a particular space, in WH you don't, you can stay there forever without pvping. If we just change a small thing it can lead to a whole new level of pvp. If evictions become at least a little bit profitable, we can have more quality pvp than just roaming gangs and staged fights.

I know I repeated some ideas in the last paragraph, but i thought it needed some clarifying. I just don't want this topic to devolve about wh pvp problems in general.
Jack Miton
Perkone
Caldari State
#31 - 2013-07-04 13:14:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Jack Miton
MadbaM wrote:
What allot of people have issue with is evictions of PVP entities.

^this is the biggest problem with WHs right now.
people who have this opinion are basically say that they want PVP, but attacking people who will PVP back is bad... sure, makes sense...

while im on the subject, any corp that gets attacked and calls in the other half of WH space to bail them out is not a PVP corp that i want to have anything to do with.
seriously, cut that sh*t out. goes for both attackers and defenders.


Rek Seven wrote:
The more we tell CCP that everything is fine, the more chance there is of us being here 2 years down the line without seeing any improvements and content adding to W-space.

Yeah, sure. except the issues in WHs are due to player mentality and have absolutely nothing to do with game mechanics since they are fine.

There is no Bob.

Stuck In Here With Me:  http://sihwm.blogspot.com.au/

Down the Pipe:  http://feeds.feedburner.com/CloakyScout

Rek Seven
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#32 - 2013-07-04 13:30:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Rek Seven
Yeah but as it's unlikely that a few guys on a forum are going to change the natural human behavior/instincts of people in w-space, the only people who can effectively make a change are CCP.
Qumar Nuom
Clandestine Services
#33 - 2013-07-04 14:13:28 UTC
So the OP is basically asking for more "reasons" to PVP and maybe more "benefits" when you do so.
From my point you are underestimating the fact that people that do not want to fight will neglect fighting whether they live in W- or K-Space.

The argument that you have to fight to stay in 0.0 is not as solid, as it may sound in the first place. Check, for example, participation from the big alliances in fleets nowadays, it is not 100% of the members, is it?

Many of the previous poster already made the connection between C5/C6 residents, the predominant fleet comps and numbers and the fact that those entities living there face (or feel) stagnation (btw, who is stagnating there?)
Those people complaining should ask themselves, if their approach is not part of the problem instead of demanding more content to satisfy their needs. More "high-end" content will lead to a short time of excitement, followed by an even bigger cry for more.

Be the content, don't ask for additional.
Meytal
Doomheim
#34 - 2013-07-04 14:20:03 UTC
Mr Kidd's post nailed it.

There are people who won't go out and hunt. That's fine, there are other ways to shoot them.
There are people who won't take bait. That's also fine, there are other ways to shoot them too.
Then there are people who log out at the sign of probes in their system. Again, there are ways to shoot them.

What you get out of W-space depends on what you put into it. If you expect to wander around in a large group and have instant-PvP at your fingertips at any moment you want it, then you aren't looking for life in W-space. Only if you're willing to put in the time and effort to hunt your prey will you get the kills.

Life here isn't about instant gratification. It's about the hunt. Instant gratification is in Low or Null ... Cyno in a cap at a belt. You'll draw PvP to you like flies to a dog turd.
Rek Seven
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#35 - 2013-07-04 14:48:19 UTC
Joan Greywind wrote:
... it just seems all the fighting in WH space is done for the fun of it only, and that is in my opinion a broken mechanic... There has to be a way where you actually can profit from your pvp if you are relatively better at it that the other wh dwellers, just like null sec. The core of this game is you risk your things to get rewarded with something else. This is completely non existent in WH pvp.


QFT
Joan Greywind
The Lazy Crabs
#36 - 2013-07-04 14:52:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Joan Greywind
I am sorry but Mr. kidds argument isn't logical. So we should all leave c5-c6 space to go live in c2's, and shoot itty 5's and drakes? I had a lot of good fights for the wh hs exit, but they are definitely not high quality fights, simply because it is easy just to find one later. As I said before twice, I am not saying that there is a lack of pvp, just that all of it is done purely for fun. There are no extra rewards for your better skills and taking extra risk. A carebear in wh space is richer than someone that pvp's.

In null everybody fights to keep their space, they might have renters, but they pay for the alliance to stay there. No one is staying in null without fighting (or someone fighting for him). Null space was just as an example. At the core of it there is very low to zero reward to you taking extra risks in WH, especially for PVP, which in my opinion is a very weak mechanic for a game like EVE.

In game PVP drivers are important, also as I said a simple moon change, got us the biggest war we saw in EVE in years. Are you telling me this isn't better? PVP drivers also break alliances and blues, as everyone should be trying to secure the biggest piece of pie they can get. Now blues, just stay blue because there is no reason not to blue. EVE is about winning not small fights. Don't get me wrong, small fights are fun as ****, but in WH space there is no "winning" because there is no pie for pvping. Yes i ******* love pie. If we can maybe make the ships not destructible in poses pvper's can have some pie (faction ships and t3's are tasty), or some other solutions that maybe smarter people can figure out. So please let's try to address this issue, and not something like small pvp is leet (it is but that is not the issue) and it's the big alliances fault (it is somewhat, but how will it be solved). Adding pvp drivers and incentives (imo) only adds to the experience.
Casirio
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#37 - 2013-07-04 15:02:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Casirio
we get plenty of lower class pew in our c6 chain. Plus no ho are always good hosts and\or guests. plenty of content happening atm Iike the TLC sack, some big c5 groups restructuring, bitten doing some nice dumbo drops again. Go out there and make it happen and **** all the ehonour bullshit that this subforum oozes. everyone likes a lil drama anyways.
Mr Kidd
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#38 - 2013-07-04 15:18:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Mr Kidd
Rek Seven wrote:
Joan Greywind wrote:
... it just seems all the fighting in WH space is done for the fun of it only, and that is in my opinion a broken mechanic... There has to be a way where you actually can profit from your pvp if you are relatively better at it that the other wh dwellers, just like null sec. The core of this game is you risk your things to get rewarded with something else. This is completely non existent in WH pvp.


QFT


I fuel my poses with our pew. No really. A 5bil isk orca kill kept us fueled for 2 months....2bil of it dropped. A 4bil isk farming shiney ship added another month. Etc etc etc. But then we're not an operation that needs to feed +50 mouths. See the recurring theme?

I would guess that what is being asked for here is the ability to ransom/pillage juicy systems ripe with easy rich targets....come on, everyone knows what "pew for profit" means. I'm pretty sure hardcore c5/6 dwellers ran all those guys out of C5/6 space and now noone wants to live there who can't field a +50 man fleet. And those that remain are pretty small shops from what I've seen not worth the time or effort to bash except for spite.

TL was a ripe target only after a +100man fleet showed up. But dividing whatever was looted by 100, I'm sure is no where near "profitable".....lets see....I just spent a week stuck in this hole gauging my eyes out for stimulation as we bashed all the poses and all I got was 150 - 300mil......yeah....profit.

So if the tough outfits that get rolled aren't profitable because of the investment needed to roll them then the only thing left is big carebear outfits who aren't prepared to pew......that's "pew for profit" in Eve. C5/6 alliances are victims of their own success. You guys wanted that space all to yourselves. I'm not seeing much of a reason for CCP to get involved when the predator has over hunted its range.

The next thing we're going to hear from Joan is w-space needs to be more like null...wait...she already said that, "pew for profit like nullsec"....local Joan? You want local too? How about moon goo? Force projection with jump bridges? Titans perhaps?

This is an interesting fact about null.....large alliances only exist because of moon-goo and force projection, both of which w-space lacks. It allows those alliances to maintain vast swaths of space that require relatively few people when compared to w-space. Try having +50 people in every system that a null alliance hold just like the big w-space alliances have to maintain for one system....most of null is empty. And the more I think about it the more I conclude that big w-space alliances have outgrown w-space because of a lack of both. There's no moon-goo. And you can't effectively project a sizable force more than a few systems away.

The fact is, there are still plenty of operations out there in lower end space where alliances have set up shop for years to get their bear on. But noone wants to oust them. Sure, they're ripe targets with lots of riches....but they're not easy targets because they have caps and noone else will. Which is ironic.

Rek, if it seems like I'm picking on you....I kind of am but, not really I just think what you want CCP to do to make possible the kind of gameplay you want is exactly the reasons why a lot of us are in w-space and not null. But moreso I'm picking on Joan atm.

Don't ban me, bro!

Rek Seven
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#39 - 2013-07-04 15:37:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Rek Seven
I don't want to go around in circles and repeat myself so I'd just like to ask C5/C6 pvp alliances/corporations a question:

Other than "good fights" and old vendettas, what reason is there for us to fight each other?

and

Is what we have now enough for the so called "end game" of wormhole space?
Oxandrolone
Unlimited Liabilities LLC
#40 - 2013-07-04 15:48:25 UTC
Major conflict is prevented by out of control blue balling.

If everyone stopped evicting farmers there would be much more targets
If people stopped blue balling there would be lots more evictions