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No major PVP driver in WH space

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Author
Joan Greywind
The Lazy Crabs
#1 - 2013-07-04 05:48:29 UTC
This has probably been discussed before, but I have been lurking on the forums for a while and can't find any good discussions about it.

Currently, other than the reason of good fights, there isn't much motive to actually engage in pvp in WH space. If you run into a active gang or WH and they don't want to PVP, they just wait it out for a day till the connection drops, no biggie. In null if you don't fight you lose your territory +income. Eviction also recently got a shadow nerf with the SMA "working as inteded" bug. And even without that bug, eviction were really not worth the cost because the other corp would just self destruct their assets.

The only major pvp we find in wh space, is either personal vendettas evictions, loggofski traps, and fights that are actually orchestrated by both sides, which really sux as pvp in eve should be non consensual (most of the times at least). I really cringe when I see **** like yea let's fight but no more than 15 ppl and no capitals.

I really don't have that many ideas to fix this problem (if it is a problem anyways). One of them might be just making the self destruct not work inside pos shields might be a good start. That way at least evictions can be somewhat profitable, and maybe that way people have more incentive to actually pvp.

It just seems you have to fish really hard to find serious pvp in wh's these days (killing ventures and drakes don't count).

So please if you disagree with anything, or like to add something go ahead, refraining from you are noob comments and dome fights are cool.
Jack Miton
Perkone
Caldari State
#2 - 2013-07-04 07:00:43 UTC
'Youre not in my fleet' = plenty of a conflict driver

There is no Bob.

Stuck In Here With Me:  http://sihwm.blogspot.com.au/

Down the Pipe:  http://feeds.feedburner.com/CloakyScout

Winthorp
#3 - 2013-07-04 07:09:23 UTC
So stop whining and make some content, look at WH space daily kills close your eyes pick a corp at random and go invade them.

Content achieved.
Joan Greywind
The Lazy Crabs
#4 - 2013-07-04 07:27:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Joan Greywind
Well let me clarify more before this gets out of hand. What I am not saying is, that there is zero pvp in WH or if you go and look for it you won't find it. What I am saying is, outside of the reasons I stated in my first post, mainly having fun killing other people (which is a great reason by in and itself), we still don't have any in game incentive to actually go and PVP. I could live in WH and not participate in any sort of pvp and still reap the all the rewards.

In null sec if you don't pvp you lose your sov, income etc. Sure in WH you have evictions, but evictions are not a profitable venture at all due to current mechanics, and are done for meta reasons. And most evictions, end up in posing up and self destructing, so there is no incentive to do them anymore, unless you really hate the corp. For instance look at the r64 moon changes, because of that small change we have seen the creation of a big war and much more pvp oppurtunities. Sadly in WH we don't have anything that drives pvp now, other than it's fun. The better pvper should be rewarded for the skill and risks they take, not only by killboard entries and bragging rights, but actually by in game rewards.

And guys no I don't want wh space to be like null, all I am saying that if you choose not to pvp you have to lose something, and if you do pvp and win, you will get some form of in game reward (generally speaking of course, not all pvp should be based on rewards, at least some of it, like evictions). Hence my suggestion in the first post (maybe it's bad, I really don't know) about evictions at least reaping the ships and modules of the other corp, without them being able to destroy (self destruct) them so easily.

And please keep it constructive, I am not whinning, I am not being lazy and not looking hard enough for pvp, I am only discussing a point of view, that maybe can make WH space a little better. I can't force you, but if your comments are something like come fight me, or just go outside your hole and you will find pvp, then please keep it for yourself.

So post away, and remember I am sensitive so don't call be bad names and watch your tones.
Zara Arran
Ehefkae
#5 - 2013-07-04 07:53:36 UTC
Usually you get the "how dare you invade that group, they are pvpers"-thread, when people did try to invade a WH.
Make up your mind, people!

In all honesty, I understand what you are saying and you have a point. I do think however that we have done this ourselves, with always batphoning, corporations and alliances growing bigger and bigger, moaning about politics and the 'moral' behind an invasion, etc.
Zara Arran
Ehefkae
#6 - 2013-07-04 07:55:08 UTC
Jack Miton wrote:
'Youre not in my fleet' = plenty of a conflict driver

small scale: very true.
larger scale: if only....
MadbaM
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#7 - 2013-07-04 08:16:11 UTC
I don't think anyone in WH's would disagree with invasions, every time you jump a WH your invading new space. What allot of people have issue with is evictions of PVP entities.

I don't think iv ever had problems getting someone who can fight, to fight, if your unable to get an engagement in WH space you have shown your hand to early. Revealed you strength to a scout or simply not been imaginative enough to create a situation someone would wan't to engage you. Regardless there are 100 different ways to get a good fight in WH's not to mention the opportunity's to PVP in low and null sec.

You stick an orca on a hole in an active system and tell me how long it takes you to get PVP, and when it comes don't blob it fight it with equal strength or maybe even less. See if you get an escalation from all the people sat in shields that told there friends it was bait, but come anyway because Orca.

Or just go sit in someones hole every time they try to run sites drop probes go find them disrupt there ability to make isk, you will get a fight. You can even drop a pos in system, force them to come remove you and fight at the timer.

It's really annoying when people come on forums complaining that CCP should do something about the lack of pew pew, people seem to forget that we are customers of CCP and so are the care bears not wanting to be shot. EVE is a huge sandbox and offers so much freedom for the meta game over other comparable titles. Use this freedom creatively come up with a new strategy instead of going to the forums complaining and asking other people to do the work for you.



But i will give you one idea free of charge to spice up one option you have already disregarded as boring. Next time offer your would be opponent an arranged fight between x number or people in x ships and bet a bill on it.

And just to make extra sure no one gets cheated you can send me the isk and ill act as banker for you. Deal?

Evangelina Nolen
Sama Guild
#8 - 2013-07-04 08:20:46 UTC
This is why we need moon goo in W-space.
Job Valador
Professional Amateurs
#9 - 2013-07-04 08:30:43 UTC
Evangelina Nolen wrote:
This is why we need moon goo in W-space.


bad idea is bad

"The stone exhibited a profound lack of movement."

Rek Seven
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#10 - 2013-07-04 09:02:53 UTC
Ever since I came to C6 wormhole space, i’ve felt like the OP does. After you kill a few caps and have a 30 man armour T3 brawl, you realise that this is pretty much all there is and other than the fun of a good fight, there is no real reason to fight.

I don’t think this is a player base problem, i think it’s a CCP problem. The only way to revitalise W-space and the pvp in it, would be for CCP to either add content or change the POS system.

For me the problem comes from the fact that if you role into someone looking for a fight but the people at home can’t or don’t want to fight, the attacker has two option; burn the system to the ground or go home and try again. The latter option being chosen 99% of the time.

So unless CCP and our CSM start looking at a wormhole expansion/update, there is little we can do about the situation.
MadbaM
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#11 - 2013-07-04 09:06:33 UTC
Rek Seven wrote:

So unless CCP and our CSM start looking at a wormhole expansion/update, there is little we can do about the situation.


Clarify what you mean by expansion
Rek Seven
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#12 - 2013-07-04 09:16:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Rek Seven
MadbaM wrote:
Rek Seven wrote:

So unless CCP and our CSM start looking at a wormhole expansion/update, there is little we can do about the situation.


Clarify what you mean by expansion


A few on the spot examples:

Adding a 7th class of wormhole only accessible through C6 wormholes
Change the black hole effect to something people are willing to deal with
Add new T3 mods that require WH moon goo
Make more out of pos shield structures (POCOS) that required players to defend
Add the chance of roaming effects in all wormholes without a static system effect
Add the ability to swap clones in W-space using a rorqual


I agree with what you said. It's not hard to get a fight if you really try, my issue is; what is the reason to fight?
Trinkets friend
Sudden Buggery
Sending Thots And Players
#13 - 2013-07-04 10:07:49 UTC
e-peen and e-honour. Find a way to inflict damage on those, and people come and fight you (read: blueblob you).

You're obviously not a big enough troll.
Sushi Nardieu
The Generic Pirate Corporation
#14 - 2013-07-04 10:10:29 UTC
no blues

The Guns of Knowledge 

Mr Kidd
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#15 - 2013-07-04 11:17:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Mr Kidd
Rek Seven wrote:
Ever since I came to C6 wormhole space, i’ve felt like the OP does. After you kill a few caps and have a 30 man armour T3 brawl, you realise that this is pretty much all there is and other than the fun of a good fight, there is no real reason to fight.

I don’t think this is a player base problem, i think it’s a CCP problem. The only way to revitalise W-space and the pvp in it, would be for CCP to either add content or change the POS system.

For me the problem comes from the fact that if you role into someone looking for a fight but the people at home can’t or don’t want to fight, the attacker has two option; burn the system to the ground or go home and try again. The latter option being chosen 99% of the time.

So unless CCP and our CSM start looking at a wormhole expansion/update, there is little we can do about the situation.


'How long have you been in wspace? Apparently, not long enough. W-space is more populated now than it ever has been.

If you want a conflict driver, then I suggest you move out of your C6 and into a system that attaches to HS....yeah I know....it's not as cool as saying "I live in a C6 I'ma bad muthafcka". Noone wants to travel to your part of space. Now, you get a system with a HS and you have the opportunity to ruin whoever's day everytime they need a route to Jita. As a C2 dweller, I can't really help it if you C5/6 guys like to drop carriers on 3 man fleets when one of your T3's get face punched because obviously, noone from lower w-space can bring a cap fight. At that point, the fight is pretty much over....isn't it?

What you C5/6 guys want is a fight. What you bring is overpowering fleets with +3 guardians, ewar +10 T3's with caps in reserve. Noone from lower w-space is going to fight you because, in the end, you guys run back to your fortresses of solitude to the safety of your cap fleets.

Used to, long ago, we'd have you c6/c5 guys rolling into our C2's and locking down the systems. I don't see that anymore. That's for one of two reasons. One: We've just gotten so good at fighting you guys off or Two: You guys have become major bears. I tend to think it's the latter. You guys want the safety of numbers and frankly, w-space isn't necessarily about numbers.

Ultimately, what you C5/6 guys are looking for are large fleet battles so everyone can have fun. Nothing wrong with that. Problem is, you live in the least populated areas of w-space.....see the problem? You might consider moving to null or losec if you really want to fight....with caps. Otherwise, swallow your pride and move into lower end space. Down here we get pew almost daily and most of it comes right to us when people are looking for routes to hs.

As to a specific conflict driver for w-space, not sure w-space needs the losec/nullsec model.

Don't ban me, bro!

JINGKO BELLS
Demonstrably False
#16 - 2013-07-04 11:38:14 UTC
Mr Kidd, excellent as always :-)
Rek Seven
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#17 - 2013-07-04 11:43:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Rek Seven
Mr Kidd wrote:

'How long have you been in wspace? Apparently, not long enough. W-space is more populated now than it ever has been.


Almost as long as i've been playing eve. I've lived in a C2, C4 and i'm currently in a C6. Your comment about w-space being more populated these days implies that everything is fine and we don't need more people in wormhole space, which is wrong, especially in c5/c6 space.

Mr Kidd wrote:



If you want a conflict driver, then I suggest you move out of your C6 and into a system that attaches to HS....yeah I know....it's not as cool as saying "I live in a C6 I'ma bad muthafcka". Noone wants to travel to your part of space. Now, you get a system with a HS and you have the opportunity to ruin whoever's day everytime they need a route to Jita. As a C2 dweller, I can't really help it if you C5/6 guys like to drop carriers on 3 man fleets when one of your T3's get face punched because obviously, noone from lower w-space can bring a cap fight. At that point, the fight is pretty much over....isn't it?

What you C5/6 guys want is a fight. What you bring is overpowering fleets with +3 guardians, ewar +10 T3's with caps in reserve. Noone from lower w-space is going to fight you because, in the end, you guys run back to your fortresses of solitude to the safety of your cap fleets.

Used to, long ago, we'd have you c6/c5 guys rolling into our C2's and locking down the systems. I don't see that anymore. That's for one of two reasons. One: We've just gotten so good at fighting you guys off or Two: You guys have become major bears. I tend to think it's the latter. You guys want the safety of numbers and frankly, w-space isn't necessarily about numbers.

Ultimately, what you C5/6 guys are looking for are large fleet battles so everyone can have fun. Nothing wrong with that. Problem is, you live in the least populated areas of w-space.....see the problem? You might consider moving to null or losec if you really want to fight....with caps. Otherwise, swallow your pride and move into lower end space. Down here we get pew almost daily and most of it comes right to us when people are looking for routes to hs.

As to a specific conflict driver for w-space, not sure w-space needs the losec/nullsec


If you are not trolling and that is what you really think, you are a fool. The answer to C5/C6 people being content with their wormholes is not to move out of wormhole space or move down to a lower class. How does that benefit wormhole space?

Wormhole space needs to attract more people who are willing to fight to get to the top and stay there. We don't want people to get to the top and say "so it's just carrier ganks and arranged fight? F*** this i'm moving to a C2 to gank drakes coming in from HS".
Nathan Jameson
Grumpy Bastards
#18 - 2013-07-04 11:47:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Nathan Jameson
I cannot like Kidd's post enough. Invariably, the people I see complaining about lack of "true" PVP in wormhole space are members of the largest entities that reside in (usually) C6 space. There's nothing wrong with wanting large fleet fights, but there are few other groups in wormhole space that can bring those sorts of fights, and wormhole connections aren't favorable to that kind of combat.

http://www.wormholes.info

Rek Seven
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#19 - 2013-07-04 11:53:50 UTC
So we are wrong to expect some variety in wormhole space? Shouldn't CCP accommodate entities who like big fleet fights, or should every corp just be 20 men strong ? Maybe CCP should reduce all wormholes mass to C1/C2 size to.
Mr Kidd
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#20 - 2013-07-04 11:55:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Mr Kidd
Rek Seven wrote:


Almost as long as i've been playing eve. I've lived in a C2, C4 and i'm currently in a C6. Your comment about w-space being more populated these days implies that everything is fine and we don't need more people in wormhole space, which is wrong, especially in c5/c6 space.


I'm pretty sure I did not say that. Lemme check...yep..didn't say that. My comment was about what w-space is....not what it should be. There's nothing wrong with wanting it to be different....more populated....but if you want CCP to "fix" it, then it's on the 5 year plan or more. And I'm not exactly convinced CCP can fix it other than to break it. I live in w-space for what it is, not what I want it to be. And if CCP puts their fat fix it fingers into it, I don't know if I'd like it anymore.


Quote:

If you are not trolling and that is what you really think, you are a fool. The answer to C5/C6 people being content with their wormholes is not to move out of wormhole space or move down to a lower class. How does that benefit wormhole space?

Wormhole space needs to attract more people who are willing to fight to get top the top and stay there. We don't want people to get to the top and say "so it's just carrier ganks and arranged fight? F*** this i'm moving to a C2 to gank drakes coming in from HS".


Again, I said nothing about w-space not needing more people....nothing! My comments are based on the realities of w-space. If you want w-space to be more populated then I suggest you split your alliance fortress systems up and spread out. But, if you want to be the biggest baddest fleet in w-space....accept the reality that only a few others are willing and able to fight with you. Reality.....more people in larger and larger fleets does not equal more pew. More people in many smaller fleets equals more pew. You just have to accept that sometimes you're going to be outgunned.

Don't ban me, bro!

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